Stain Removal Questions

[SuitUp]

Hi! I've been reading this forum for a couple weeks and have learned a lot but still have some questions.

I want to get rid of the stains. Based on info here, I've purchased 2 pounds Vit C, AA powder and EZ Chlor Metal Magnet 32 fluid ozs.

Basically my questions are how do I use these?
1. what does the chlorine level and PH have to be at to do stain removal?
2. which do I do first, Metal Magnet or AA?
3. how long do I run the pump, do I take out the filters because I don't have a circulate only option?

Background: I wanted to remove the stains before swimming season so I started the chlorine removal a few months back. Got a major algae bloom which took a long time to clear and lots and lots of shock because my ph was too high. FINALLY the pool store said to reduce ph, and algae cleared. Now the stains are worse.

Status: Gunnite, 15,000 gals, 4 filter pod, has a heater but I only use it for the attached spa.
ph is now 7.4 and I have not added any chlorine for a few weeks but the chlorine is still holding for some reason. All other levels are in range and have been for the past year, amazingly. Low phosphates and I use Phos Free maintenance. Water clear and we still suit up and swim Chlorine now about 1.5.

Have organic stains in the deep end from debris before we bought the house. These respond to serious scraping with a pumice stone. Lighter stains respond somewhat to a vit c tablet, but they are all over the bottom and sides of the pool. Thanks everyone for this forum!!

[PoolDoc]

Don't do anything yet! For one thing, you still have to get some HEDP! To quote an earlier thread:

EZ Clor Metal Magnet -- an EXTREMELY diluted solution of HEDP. Specific gravity 1.01 - 1.02!! Unless the MSDS I have is a misprint, this is basically a bottle of water.

(You didn't find a recommendation for that product here, did you? If you did, I need to fix it !)

1. Stain removal takes place at FC=0 ! That's why you need polyquat, so you pool doesn't turn green with algae, giving you two problems for the price of one!
2. Don't do either, yet. Actually, since Magnet is mostly useless, you can do whatever you want with it!


Here what you need to do:

1. Order a K2006. To do the stain process, and prevent future stains, you've got to test accurately. (Links below)
2. Fill out the Pool Chart (link below)
3. Get a chlorine tablet; put a piece on the suspected organic stains; remove after 1 hour. Observe the results.
4. Get some Iron Out; put 1/2 cup in a old sock; place it against one of the areas that responds to Vitamin C; see if it outperforms Vitamin C.
5. Think about where the stains came from -- if you keep adding metals, you'll keep getting stains. (Utility water, well water, rusty pool pipes, deteriorating heater?)

Lemme know the results.

Ben

================================================== ==


+ Get a cheap OTO (yellow drops) / phenol test kit, or if available at YOUR Walmart (check availability), get the HTH 6-way DROPS test kit, which is compatible with the Taylor K2006. Test the pool as soon and you can, and post the results. If you get the 6-way kit, ALSO test the water you FILL the pool with, especially if it's a well, and post THOSE results as well. (The HTH is the best available kit you're likely to find locally, but it's not the K-2006. It can only provide rough measurements chlorine levels above 5 ppm, and it measures "TOTAL" hardness, rather than "CALCIUM" hardness, which is not ideal.)

+ Having a good test kit makes pool care easier for EVERYONE. A good test kit means a kit that can test chlorine from 0 - 25 ppm, pH, alkalinity, calcium hardness, and stabilizer with reasonable accuracy. Test strips (AKA 'guess-strips' ) do NOT meet this standard. Some pool store testing is accurate; most is not. The ONLY way you'll know whether your pool store is accurate or bogus, is by testing accurately your own self. On the other hand, pool store 'computer' dosing recommendations are NEVER trustworthy -- ignore them. They are designed to sell more chemicals than you need, and WILL cause many pool problems.

+ We recommend the Taylor K-2006 test kit, which meets the requirements above, for many reasons. The HTH 6-way drops kit is a great starter kit, and is compatible with the K2006 (it's made by Taylor). There are a few alternatives; for example Lamotte makes an FAS-DPD kit that's OK -- but it costs 3x as much. But, we're not aware of any test that is better, and since we are all familiar with the K-2006 (and can help you with it) we recommend it exclusively ( Test kit info page )


+ It's much easier to answer your questions, when we have the details about your pool in one place. We often 'waste' the first few posts back and forth collecting information. So, please complete our new Pool Chart form -- it takes about 30 seconds, but will save much more than that.

Pool Chart Entry Form

[SuitUp]

Ok thanks! no I did not get the advice for Metal Magnet on this forum. I found out the stains were probably from metals by reading the forum, but I picked out the Metal Magnet on my own .

I'll get the right test kit and post the results.

Are you referring to the polyquat and HEDP as the same thing? I don't know what an HEDP is. I looked into polyquats when I was trying to get rid of the algae before, but the algaecide products don't actually say whether they are a polyquat. I know some of them contain copper, which would probably stain my pool, so I ran into a brick wall on that decision before ... and just used high chlorine with low PH to kill the algae.

So as I understand now, I need a polyquat to keep out algae while I get the FC to 0. It is taking a long time for the chlorine levels to drop. I'll take the Magnet back and ask for a polyquat but I doubt the pool store will know what that is.

Meanwhile I'll do the tests you recommend on the stains. Remaining questions: HEDP? and if you have a recommendation on what polyquat to purchase?

Thank you very very very much!!

[PoolDoc]

Complete the pool chart, above. Let me know when you do, and I'll post links and approximate doses for your pool.

It's very hard to buy HEDP locally; the chemical companies try to conceal ingredients. Polyquat is not quite as hard, but you still have to become an expert "label inspector". Amazon has pretty good pricing; is a reliable suppler; and allows me to specify EXACTLY what the link goes to, so you get the right thing. Plus, the PoolForum gets a small commission on each purchase.

[SuitUp]

OK, I didn't have time to fill out the chart yet. FC=0, PH=7.0
There was a little algae on the sides which brushed off easily, mainly in the spa. I bought the 6 way HTH and took a sample in to the pool store and they confirmed all other levels were within range. I thanked them for not using the test strip.

It's very hot now in Sacramento, 100 - 104 the next 5 days. It's now or never for the stain removal. Deep breath... Last night I took out the filters, put in 2 lbs of powdered Vitamin C. sprinkled around sides of pool, let the pump run for 24 hours. Pool is 15,500 gals. After work today the stains were much lighter. I put the filters back in and am running the pump with the pool sweep. The sweep is on a valve, not a dedicated pump.

Now, how do I get chlorine back in?? I read don't shock but I don't know why? Pump is still running with filters in, but when can I add chlorine??? I'm going to have a serious algae bloom very soon. I know I didn't exactly follow your instructions but I don't know where to buy POP locally!! haha. When and how can I add chlorine? Thank you!!

[PoolDoc]

SuitUp;

As you say, you didn't follow directions.

You're situation is sorta like someone saying, well, yeah, when I got to Chattanooga, I was in a hurry and wasn't paying attention and didn't follow your directions to get to Atlanta, so I took I-75N. Now, I'm in Knoxville. How can I get to Atlanta?

The only possible answer is: "Turn around, go back the way you came, and when you get to Chattanooga, take I-75S to Atlanta!"

In your case, you've dissolved some of the stains into your water, but have no way to keep them in the water, nor anyway to get them out of your pool. You've got to re-chlorinate, or as you say, you'll add algae to your list of problems. Once you do, the stains are likely to reappear. If you're lucky, some of the iron may be filtered out.

You'd better add chlorine really soon.

So . . . good luck!

(And, let us know when you are ready to do what it takes to get the stains out of your pool . . . )

[SuitUp]

I followed all the directions I had, except the one that said fill out the chart. Limited time during weekdays. I asked 3 very specific questions which were not answered. 1. what is a polyquat and where can I get it? 2. what is HEDP and where can I get it? 3. why do you say not to shock after AA and then how do I safely get chlorine back in?

I was expecting answers to these questions. Like, 1. this is a polyquat and here is a link. 2. This is an HEDP and here is a link. They have speedy delivery available. I would have paid extra for speedy delivery because like I said, short on time. I don't mind if you get a bit of a kickback because everybody has to eat and I don't expect anyone to put out their time for free. 3. Rechlorinate this way instead of shock because (fill in answer).

The answers I got were 1. You have to be really good at reading ingredients to get a polyquat. 2. HEDP is very hard to find locally. 3. You didn't follow directions and went to Knoxville - good luck! All very vague and meaningless answers to my very specific questions. I was willing to follow instructions if you had given them.

Now: I'm happy with the stain removal, the AA removed the brown stains and even some of the organic stains in the deep end. I had a slight algae bloom in the attached spa that scraped off easily. The water is slightly cloudy. I added 2 gals of liquid chlorine and am floating 3 pucks of chlorine with acid. The chorine is holding steady and the ph is at 7.2.

My fill water tested with chlorine barely visible at about .5 and ph high at 7.8. If you don't want to post this or only post part of it I'm ok with that. You can contact me directly at (Email address removed for your protection).

[PoolDoc]

Suitup,

There are all sorts of places you can go for products and instructions for removing stains. Many of them are simple and easy. You don't have to follow instructions well, to use those products or methods. I think that's what you're looking for -- an easy, simple way to remove stains. Occasionally, these methods work. Often they don't, but at least they are simple!

The method I've described -- and posted -- here is not simple; it's complicated. Worse, you not only have to follow the instructions, you have to follow them in EXACTLY the right order for the process to work.

Since I first posted the method, we've had some failures occur. I don't like it when things I recommend fail; it embarrasses me a lot. So, I've backed off on helping people with it, until I'm sure they can succeed with it. And at this point, I'm pretty sure that people who can't spend 30 seconds completing a pool chart, aren't going to spend 30 minutes carefully reading a complex strain removal process.

So honestly, I'd rather you call Jacks' Magic, and buy all the stuff they recommend, and dump it in. It might work; sometimes it does. But, if it fails, it's THEIR method failing, not mine. And if it succeeds, that's great. As I've often said, it's usually better to be lucky than smart!

I may be able to figure out how to make the method here simpler. And, if I do, and you have stains again, you're welcome to try again.

Good luck!

[SuitUp]

What stain removal process are you referring to? I tried Jacks magic last year and it did not work. If you have a stain removal process on this website can you please supply a link or point me in the right direction? I'm not looking for a simple solution, but with my FC at 0 and high temps the next week I had to either try it, or give up and rechlorinate.

Right now the AA has removed most of the stains. I do not want them to come back. It did lighten the heavy organic stains in the deep end, but I would be very happy if you have a process to follow for that, aside from draining and acid wash, which I have considered.

[Cookieman]

Here is link to AA procedure. It is posted as a sticky by alyad at top of this category. I began trying it July 31. Still working with it. I am not certain I put enough HEDP in it - only dose on bottle. Used Kem Tek Calcium&Metal Eliminator and am using JacksMagicPinkStuff now - both recommended by forum. This time am making sure I am keeping more of the HEDP in the water than before. PoolDoc is the expert, so I continue to read and try to figure out what I might be doing wrong. My stains have come back every time I get my chlorine back to minimum levels 3.0 - 4.0 with PH of 7.2. Good luck.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...acid-treatment