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Thread: Can I Use Salt As Sanitizer Instead of Chlorine?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Salt-only solutions? (not for chlorine generation)

    Quote Originally Posted by catfish View Post
    1. A massive number of sources imply that dead sea level salinity all pathogenic organisms of concern . . . . mainstream media sources can be easily wrong
    Without exception, I've found MSM articles, when covering topics about which I have independent technical knowledge, to be accurate only so long as they quote an accurate source, and further that MSM journalists generally have no ability to distinguish reliable sources from those that are merely politically correct. If they cite a source, then YOU need to find the source and cite IT, not the MSM article. That's what we do. That's what we expect of you, if you want us to bother with your argument.

    And, if you want us to believe you that there are a "massive number" of sources . . . you need to list, if not a massive number, at least several dozen sources. Otherwise, we'll just conclude that you're spraying more fluff.


    2. Dead sea level salinity is affordable (if not the most affordable) for someone spending 5 figures on a pool.
    According to various sources*, the Dead Sea salt levels are around 300 ppt or 300,000 ppm. For a 13,000 gallon 24' round pool, that translates into 32,000 lbs of salt or 821 40# bags of salt. Assuming a hefty discount from the going rate ($6.50/bag) down to $4 per bat, that's still about $3,200 for salt. Considering that that's more than the pool would cost, I think we can dismiss your claim that "dead sea level salinity is affordable" as yet another case of thinking that's long on fancy and short on facts.

    [* http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...54254/Dead-Sea ]


    3. Sodium chloride will be as affective as the magnesium salts the Dead Sea is dominated by.
    Given the general unreliability of your claims so far, I think we can safely ignore this one, at least till you cite sources.


    There, all that distractingly eloquent language pruned. Happy?
    Much happier; if you are going to say dumb things, saying them succinctly makes it much easier to recognize them for what they are. (And, of course, that's why politicians aren't brief!)

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    Default Re: Salt-only solutions? (not for chlorine generation)

    Catfish,

    I have never personally swum in the Dead Sea, nor in the Great Salt Lake in Utah. However, I have spoken to people that have. The resounding complaint from those people is that just about any tiny cut will sting and burn. The men I spoke with tell me that even shaving facial hair (assuming no cuts or nicks) with a standard blade type razor prior to swimming in the Dead Sea is irritating and uncomfortable to the face once you get in the water.

    You already have stated that you do not open your eyes under water while in the ocean, as it stings your eyes. My question to you is this, why would you ever want to build a pool that would do the same thing only worse?

    If you visit this website, you will learn that plants, animals and microbes live and survive in the Great Salt Lake, which is reported to be 3.5 – 8 times saltier than the ocean.

    http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/conte...physical_char/

    Having had a traditional pool that irritated my children and grandchildren’s eyes, as well as my own, and my own grandchildren tell me that they don’t want to swim in my pool anymore because it burns their eyes, I felt pretty ridiculous. I realize that this is just a dream for you at this point, but my experience says you’re going to be pretty lonely in your pool.

    But, in the spirit of education and sharing knowledge, here is a bit of information you may find useful.

    1 tablespoon of Salt in a gallon of water is approximately 3600 PPM.

    9-10 tablespoons in that same gallon of water will get you somewhere close the salinity level of the Ocean (35,000 PPM).

    85 tablespoons will get you to the approximately the salinity level of the Dead Sea (300,000 PPM).

    Perhaps you might want to mix up a small sample to test your theory before taking the big plunge and filling a pool.
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    Default Re: Salt-only solutions? (not for chlorine generation)

    Ugh! Whoever would want to swim in such a concentrated salt solution? That would suck the water out of your skin in no time. I used to live near the Great Salt Lake. Nobody swims in it because it's scummy from algae which do very much survive and love highly salty water. I'm having a great time picturing 32,000 pounds of water in a 13,000 gallon round pool, imagining the salt sliding out of the dump truck, making a tall mound of salt in the middle. Catfish on top of it with a big rake pushing the salt into the water which, of course, is overflowing the sides. What stays in is getting very cold due to the exothermic reaction. Catfish is now up to his ankles in a supersaturated, very cold salt solution and we see the flesh dissolving off his feet . . . okay, I'll stop.

    BTG has a good idea: try it in your bathtub, first. Sit in it for an hour or so, see what it does to your bottom. Ouch!
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    Default Re: Salt-only solutions? (not for chlorine generation)

    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaK View Post
    BTG has a good idea: try it in your bathtub, first. Sit in it for an hour or so, see what it does to your bottom.
    To say nothing of other parts -- it might put an end to all thoughts of 'kittenfish'.

    Still, it would give him a chance to actually put some facts in his fantasy, and be a REAL investigator and pioneer. Maybe even, the last of his breed.

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    Default Re: Salt-only solutions? (not for chlorine generation)

    LOL!

    You know, this thread started out fairly interesting on kind of a "what if" level, but a 10 second search on Google produces an immediate Aha! response. The Salton Sea, the Great Salt Lake, the Aral Sea, the Dead Sea, California's Pink Lakes – none are used for recreational purposes. The caption to one of the photos of the Pink Lakes says "The red coloration is caused by astronomical numbers of microscopic, unicellular organisms living in the water and salt crust. How they survive the blistering summer heat and concentrated brine is truly remarkable."

    I'm sticking with chlorine.
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    Default Re: Sanitizing pools with salt alone, and no chlorine generation

    I said it once and I'll say it again. There is no "FREE LUNCH" when it comes to swimming pool sanitation. You're gonna pay the price somewhere, somehow, but burning my skin is not a price I want to pay.
    If you can afford a swimming pool and computer, you can probably afford to help keep the PoolForum alive. Please be a responsible member and subscribe today. You'll probably save more than the membership fee on your first trip to the pool store. BTG

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    Default Re: Sanitizing pools with salt alone, and no chlorine generation

    It doesn't help to move the goalposts around, so to speak. We started out talking about ocean salinity levels, but yes if we are talking about extraordinary salt saturation levels nearly 10 times higher then sure that may kill pathogens, but as was pointed out by others above is impractical for many reasons.

    If we want to have a rational discussion about chlorine alternatives, we can have that, but why waste time going down dead ends? There are already quite a lot of alternatives we can discuss unless we're just having a brainstorming session online.

    I didn't mean to discount the very real risks of chlorinated disinfection by-products. High bather-load indoor pools that aren't exceptionally well managed can be pretty darn awful in short-term effects (largely from nitrogen trichloride) and may be at least somewhat harmful for long-term effects (from brominated THMs and other chemicals, mostly regarding cancer). However, when I look at this data, I can see that reducing the active chlorine level to the lowest amount that still gives reasonable disinfection rates while simultaneously providing methods for removing organic precursors (i.e. bather waste) to oxidize them before chlorine does seems the easiest path to take, at least initially. I believe small amounts of CYA (20 ppm for indoor pools, for example) can be used for this purpose to have, say, the equivalent of 0.2 ppm FC with no CYA.

    As for true alternatives, we need something for bulk-water disinfection and right now it looks like the quarternary ammonium compounds might be a reasonable candidate (I already discussed the problems with copper/silver, though for just preventing uncontrolled bacterial growth they are OK if one can deal with their levels and pH to avoid staining issues). UV or ozone can still be used to handle Crypto. That still leaves general oxidation of bather waste for which there are a lot of alternatives (ozone doesn't oxidize urea well, especially if it's not chlorinated, while UV only affects some chemicals). In addition to some selective oxidizers, such as MPS, the use of boron-doped diamond electrodes to produce hydroxyl radicals may be a good approach and might be one of the few things that can break down urea (other than chlorine, which does so slowly though possibly aided by the UV in sunlight that produces...hydroxyl radicals), though that remains to be seen.

    And then there's the DIN 19643 system used in some countries in Europe that focuses on coagulation/filtration for removal of organic precursors, though they use low levels of chlorine in the 0.3 to 0.6 ppm FC range without ozone or 0.2 to 0.5 ppm FC with ozone (with no CYA, however, so still generally higher than I'm proposing).

    Now for residential pools where person-to-person transmission of disease is a risk many would be willing to take since odds are they might catch something through other contact means (such as you described), then the focus is more on preventing uncontrolled bacterial growth and oxidation of bather waste. The same sorts of alternatives as described above could be used, but using a subset of them since the bather load is much lower. Just keep in mind that the risk is higher (though as a personal choice, may be acceptable) and usually the costs will be higher as well, at least up-front. I'm just very leery given my discussions with users of such systems when they failed, but realistically a properly designed system may not have the same problems as those that were used (or used improperly).

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    Post Re: Sanitizing pools with salt alone, and no chlorine generation

    Quote Originally Posted by catfish View Post
    Also, ftw, I have a degree in actuarial science and am well on my way to passing my second exam.
    In other words, a bean counter for the insurance industry! Explains a lot. A FAR cry from the actual hard science disciplines like chemistry, biology, and physics. More akin to an accountant that understands some statistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by catfish View Post
    And maybe all of that probably falls outside the expected scope of a forum like this, but...

    well, it shouldn't.
    Probability is better left to describing an electron's position in its orbitals or perhaps at the roulette wheel and craps table in Vegas (or to the insurance industries, which is basically just another form of gambling, that are betting that they can get your money without having to pay you for a claim. If you are high risk they won't insure you!) then to the care of a swimming pools!
    Retired pool store and commercial pool maintenance guy.

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    Default Re: Sanitizing pools with salt alone, and no chlorine generation

    Putting down someone's educational achievements, the job he holds, and the industry in which he works really isn't germane to this discussion.
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    Default Re: Sanitizing pools with salt alone, and no chlorine generation

    I was merely pointing out that his expertise is in a different field and not one related to pool water sanitation such as chemistry, microbiology, medicine, etc. or even pool maintenance and operation for a variety of pool and not just his own.
    His expertise would be in accounting and risk management (which is where the probability comes in).

    I stand by everything I said and it was not a put down. It was a statement of fact. Just because one has higher education does not make them an 'expert' in areas not related to what they studied, not does it necessarily give them critical thinking skills (particularly nowadays).
    Retired pool store and commercial pool maintenance guy.

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