Advice Needed - High CYA, High Nitrates, and Lots of Algae

[aylad]

It takes a long, long time for CYA to break down under normal chlorination levels--I believe it's something like 2-3 ppm per month. CYA can and does break down under algae/swampy conditions--it breaks down into 2 or 3 different things, but one of the most prominent here is ammonia--which creates a HUGE chlorine demand to overcome.

If this OP will stop using stabilized chlorine products, the CYA will eventually come down on its own through splashout and filter backwashes--but it will take awhile.

Janet

[capshockeyfan]

Aylad - thank you for your advice! FYI; the folks at my local pool store are the ones concerned about the nitrate level... they just tested the water for nitrates and told me nothing else matters until that problem is solved.

My wife is picking up one of the Walmart kits today, so I'll have those results tomorrow. I've checked on Amazon and eBay for the K-2006 kit; just to confirm, this is the one: Taylor Complete FAS-DPD Pool Water Test Kit K-2006 I found a new one on eBay for $63 postage paid, but it will take a week before I receive it.

I am aware of the potential "pool popping" if I fully drain my pool (please see the bottom of my initial message); being as I have had a pool fence post pop already, I am hesitant to fully drain the pool. If I do wind up draining the pool at some point, I will hire a professional.

Regarding the killing algae before/after draining some water; at this point, I have been staring at a green swamp for a week and would love to see some improvement (actually, I would really love to see the bottom of my pool)!

A new question: Can one gradually switch to the bleach, borax, baking soda method of pool maintenance or do you have to start this method with totally fresh pool water?

[waterbear]

A new question: Can one gradually switch to the bleach, borax, baking soda method of pool maintenance or do you have to start this method with totally fresh pool water?

Nothing to switch. BBB is just good pool maintenance. In your case it means stopping all forms of stabilized chlorine (trichlor and dichlor) because your CYA is high and only using an unstabilized chlorine source. Sodium hypochlorite (liquid pool chlorine/laundry bleach) happens to have the fewest side effect at a decent price. Your other options are cal hypo which can cloud a pool and will raise calcium hardness or lithium hypochlorite, which is just ridiculously expensive.
AS far as baking soda goes, if you have ever bought total alkalinity increaser from the pool store you bought very expensive baking soda! I don't care if the label says sodium hydrogen carbonate or any of the other chemical synomyms for sodium bicarbonate, it is still just baking soda and not as pure as the stuff from the grocery store!
As far as borax, well you can buy that in the pool store also under such sames as Bioguard Optimizer and Proteam Supreme but 20 Mule Team works exactly the same. We recommend using borax for raising pH instead of soda ash (pH increaser, which is also available at the grocery as Arm and Hammer Super Washing Sods...once again exactly the same chemical) because soda ash raises both pH AND TA and often (usually) causes the TA to go too high so it needs to be lowered after the pH is in line.
So, the only change you really have to make is to change your chlorine source because you do not want any more stabilizer in your water, start testing your water, and balance as heeded. We are here to help you learn how. It really isn't very hard at all and you will save a lot of money in the process and have a really easy pool to care for.

[capshockeyfan]

A quick update on my pool water situation; Friday evening, I added the balance of bleach to my swampy pool water and had a sample tested Saturday morning at a different pool company a few miles away; here are the results:

Free chlorine - 3.3 ppm
total chlorine - 3.7 ppm
combined chlorine - 0.3 ppm
ph - 7.8
hardness - 180 ppm
akalinity - 75 ppm
CYA - OVR 150 ppm
copper - 0.06ppm
nitrates - 80ppm
phosphates - 2500ppb

Their advice was the same as pool company # 1 (drain and refill the pool) due to the high CYA and nitrates. I was surprised to see the chlorine levels looked pretty good, but there was no noticeable improvement in the algae/green color of the water. I was also surprised to see the phosphate levels were so much higher with the new test (they went from 50ppb to 2500ppb); is this a side-effect of using liquid bleach?

I have decided to bite the bullet and have pool company # 1 drain and refill the pool; I just felt I was in over my head trying to fix things and if my family is to have any time in the pool this year, I had best start from scratch with fresh water. They are going to do a full drain of the pool and also clean the plaster (not using acid) for $650 + cost of water. I specifically requested the co-owner of the shop be the one to do the work and I have faith in him (although they did have me fill out a waiver of damages in case the pool "pops")!

I do have one of the recommended Walmart 6-way kits, but figured I'd hold off using it until the new water is in since there are only 2 test of CYA in this kit.

I've got a few questions for you folks now as I prepare for the new water:

1. Is BBB a good choice for the person with limited time to devote to the care of the pool water? My wife and kids can help out with the pool brushing, but taking care of the water itself is up to me. I am leaning towards liquid bleach as my sanitizer method; I have previously used Arm & Hammer baking soda as the alkalinity increaser and it worked like a charm. The liquid bleach certainly got my chlorine levels up quickly last week. If we go with BBB, is there a dosage chart on this site that will let me know how much of each ingredient to add to the new pool water?

2. Since I am starting from scratch now, can I update my pool chart info on your site with the new sanitation choice? I may also adjust the # of gallons as the 36,000 figure was what I was told by the pool builder; I will know the exact capacity once the pool is drained and new water is added.

3. My filter cartridges are a bit discolored after processing all of the algae over the past week; should I just continue to hose them off and use "as-is" with the new water or is there a recommended cleaner to prepare them for use in the new water? (Pool company # 2 recommended using diluted muratic acid to soak the cartridges, but I did not want to go this route without double checking with the folks here.)

[aylad]

BBB is a good choice for the person with limited time to take care of the water. It may take a day or two to get the whole pool balanced, but once that's done, you can test/add bleach in 5 minutes a day--you just need to make sure that's every cay. Here's a chart that may help you with your doseages...
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...18-bleach-calc If you'll open it and save it to your desktop, it's an invaluable tool! It will calculate more than just bleach--look in the upper left corner for a drop-down box with more calcs in it.

As far as updating the pool chart info, Watermom has started a thread here http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...-on-Pool-Chart for corrections to be made. Unfortunately, we'll have to go edit them, and it probably won't happen til the end of the busy season (at least til after July 4) but we'll eventually get it done.

If your budget can handle it, if you're starting with new water, I would start with new cartridges. Thre is a way to clean them, but I'm not a cart person--one of the others will have to chime in here. You can also search the forum and find plenty of threads about cleaning them (and ordering new ones) with the google link in either my or Watermom's sigs above.

Janet

[Watermom]

The thread Jan linked above is the top thread in the "Notes and Announcements" section of the forum. (since you won't be able to follow that link)

[PoolDoc]

I was surprised to see the chlorine levels looked pretty good, but there was no noticeable improvement in the algae/green color of the water. I was also surprised to see the phosphate levels were so much higher with the new test (they went from 50ppb to 2500ppb); is this a side-effect of using liquid bleach?

No, it's a side effect of using bogus testing from 2 different companies! I have no idea what your actual PO4 levels are; either number might be right, but it's more likely that they are BOTH wrong!

You can test this for yourself, once you get your pool refilled, by taking a 1 gallon water jug (not milk jug -- it would contaminate the sample) filling it with pool water and then refrigerating it. After 24 hours, take a sample out of the jug "from your pool" to both dealers. Wait 48 hours, and then do it again. All 4 sample results should be identical. If you want to get an idea what the real results are, go ahead and order a K2006 test kit and learn to use it. Then, do a set of K2006 tests on the refrigerated gallon when you take them to the dealers.

By the way, the water in the gallon will NOT test exactly like your pool. Sitting for 24 hours will change it. Refrigerating it should hold any further change to minimum.

Do NOT soak your cartridges in acid, unless you want to have to buy new ones. Acid can 'set' oils, so they can't be removed. It's very, very unlikely you need to clean them in acid. Instead, buy a garbage can that the cartridges will fit inside of, and fill it with enough water to cover the cartridges. Add 1# of trisodium phosphate for every 2 gallons of water. Get PLAIN trisodium phosphate (not: substitute) from Lowes paint department, or this link:

1lb Savogran Trisodium Phosphate (TSP) @ Amazon
5lb Savogran Trisodium Phosphate (TSP) @ Amazon

Add 1 cup of bleach for each # of TSP. Spray off the cartridges, soak for 24 hours, then rinse thoroughly. If any scale is visible after soaking, you can ask about acid cleaning. But it's VERY unlikely you need it.

[PoolDoc]

upgraded membership and moved your post where you can access it. -ben

[capshockeyfan]

Hi Folks,

I just wanted to extend a sincere "thank you" to everyone who posted replies to my previous questions; this Forum is a wonderful resource! I figured the least I could do to show my appreciation was to subscribe and have done so this afternoon.

Since my last post, we did bite the bullet and had our pool drained, cleaned, and refilled; it now looks beautiful. When the water was added, the pool company told me they added 5 lbs. of dichlor as an initial shock. This was not my plan, but was an honest mistake on their part as that is what we had been using the past couple of years when our pool was opened by the same folks. Since the water was added, I have been using Arm and Hammer baking soda for pH adjustments and 6% plain bleach from Walmart as the chlorine source. I have also been using stabilized chlorinating tablets in the skimmer buckets (two tablets in each bucket). I had the water tested this morning and here are the results:

Free chlorine - 1.8 ppm
total chlorine - 1.8 ppm
combined chlorine - 0.0 ppm
ph - 7.7
hardness - 200 ppm
akalinity - 97 ppm
CYA - 10 ppm
nitrates - 0 ppm

I see my chlorine is still a little low and will add some more bleach this evening. My CYA is pretty low and I need to get this level boosted; is it okay to do so via more dichlor shock and or tablets added to the skimmer buckets? If it is best to just add CYA by itself, is there a recommended source? (Our pool is 36,000 gallons.)

I plan to gradually switch to a full BBB pool; and am wondering if it is okay to use up my previously purchased chemicals (tablets and dichlor shock) as long as I am keeping close watch on the pool chemistry? I purchased a 50lb bucket of tablets and a 25lb bucket of dichlor this past spring in preparation of our pool opening and hope to be able to finish them as long as I'm not messing up the pool chemistry.

Sorry if these questions have already been answered; now that I'm a full-member of the Forum I will be able to access previous threads, but I was hoping to get some quick help to these questions. Now that we have basically started from scratch, I'll post new threads when I have additional questions.

[aylad]

Thank you for subscribing to the forum!! The subscriptions go a long way toward helping keep this site up and running.

Keep in mind that baking soda is used to raise alkalinity, rather than to control pH--we recommend Borax to raise the pH and muriatic acid to lower it. HOwever, dichlor and trichlor tabs both are acidic and drive pH down, so if you'll test for it daily, you'll probably find that you don't have to adjust the pH too much. Just don't let it get below 7.0. It is fine to keep using the trichlor tabs and dichlor to keep your chlorine levels up, as long as you stop at the point where you have targeted your CYA. The dichlor will add 9 ppm of CYA for every 10 ppm of chlorine, and the trichlor will add 6 ppm of CYA for every 10 ppm of chlorine--so I would test for CYA every couple of weeks or so, and just switch to bleach when your CYA levels get where you want them to be. Pay attention to the chlorine chart, though--remember that your chlorine levels have to rise when the CYA rises...so once your CYA gets to 20 ppm, your chlorine levels will have to stay between 3-6, no lower!!

Glad your pool is in good shape--now just be diligent about testing, and it should stay that way through the summer! Happy swimming