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Thread: Shocking

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Shocking

    Janet,
    Haters gonna hate.
    Don't let it get you down.
    I can tell you this, don't know if it will help.
    Where my mom lives, the Wally World is the nicest store in town. Mostly because the other stores cut back on almost everything trying to compete with the WM Megastore.
    Where I live, the local Wall Marts are different - not at all pleasant and usually filthy. I can't explain it but I can tell you there is a difference. I avoid them - been in 'em enough to know what i'm talking about, but will usually shop elsewhere. I love my Costco - many people don't care for thiers.
    The OP in this case is clearly unpleasant and not the class of people usually on this forum. Money can't buy class. Perhaps this person should ask Ben for a for a quote to manage the backyard oasis. I doubt he'd respond.
    12'x24' oval 7.7K gal AG vinyl pool; ; Hayward S270T sand filter; Hayward EcoStar SP3400VSP pump; hrs; K-2006; PF:16

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Shocking

    Quote Originally Posted by trilogy problems View Post
    OK so Pool Doc, I feel as though your response is at minimum sent with a frustrated tone that I don't appreciate.
    The tone was frustrated, and I regret that -- I'd been dealing with other difficulties that had nothing to do with you.

    If you don't want to help fine. .
    I would say, rather, I don't want to engage in a 3-way negotiation between you, us and whoever you're dealing with locally. There would be nothing wrong with doing that, but I think it's inefficient for us to engage in that sort of elongated process, this time of year.


    Sorry that I refuse to step foot in a Walmart to buy the test and be forced to interact with the class of people that shop there.
    I'm with Aylad, there. I shop at Walmart, weekly. So, if you don't want to interact with that class of people, you really shouldn't be talking to me or Janet or Watermom. Not sure about Carl and Al, but they wouldn't hesitate to go to Walmart if there was something there they needed. It's actually, sort of a problem, since most of the grocery store chemicals we recommend -- bleach, borax, baking soda, washing soda, HTH 6-way -- are only consistently available at Walmart, and some other items -- dichlor & trichlor -- at Walmart's sister store, Sams Club.

    I think I should stop there. As I said earlier, you have the training to work this out for yourself, without our having to hold your hand. And that way, you can be as flexible as you like in working the tensions between what your pool store says, what you want, and what we say.

    Just one clarification -- I don't think I ever said your local pool guys were evil. What I said was -- I think, I haven't re-read everything -- was that they are ignorant. What I usually say about pool store employees is that they are either evil OR ignorant . . . or very, very rarely neither evil nor ignorant. They believe what they've been taught; it's not their fault that what they've been taught is wrong.

    It's the chemical companies that deliberately mis-train people. This is the point of Chem_Geek's corrections to the CPO training . . . and that manual is FAR better than the one I had when I became a CPO instructor, much less the one I had when I became a CPO.


    I'm not going to remove your registration, but I'd suggest that you not post further, at least during 2012. Here at PoolForum, we are either the "class of people that shop" at Walmart, or else people who doing mind hanging out with such Walmart peons. I'm not sure where you'd go to find a 'higher class' pool forum, but I can assure you, it will never be here.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Shocking

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Janet,
    Where I live, the local Wall Marts are different - not at all pleasant and usually filthy. I can't explain it but I can tell you there is a difference. I avoid them - been in 'em enough to know what i'm talking about, but will usually shop elsewhere. I love my Costco - many people don't care for theirs.
    I didn't know that; I don't love everyone I meet at Walmart, but I've never seen a Walmart here be filthy. I will keep that in mind. While we've never had anyone else here post as the OP did, I'm sure that other posters here have silently thought, "I'm not going there" if the Walmart in their area is as you say.

    But, as I told the OP, Walmart is the only source I know that consistently carries some of these items. Maybe, we need to extend the chemical page thread by listing other sources that may be regionally reliable. The HTH 6-way seems to be a rare bird, unfortunately. I'm not even sure where else to look for that.

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    Default Re: Shocking

    Oh my this has taken such an ugly turn which was certaintly never intended my me. I was not trying to offend anyone and am sorry that I did. My actual point about walmart was in regards to the fact that Ben had rudely replied to me even after I had done what he reccommend, and I felt it was based on the fact that I was using a pool store where he chooses not to shop. I was pointing out that for my own PERSONAL reasons I choose not to shop at Walmart. I made no remarks on the fact that anyone on here does use that choice. I understand reading it back as to how my words would definately be construied that way, and in retrospect I should have phrased it better. Point being who cares where you get the items but for some reason it seems people do.

    Janet- I did not intend to post twice, I understand it is being moderated. The site had logged me out and when I logged back in it said it did not go through to please wait 5 seconds and resumbmit so I did. Sorry you had to delete one.

    thank you again chem geek for actual information which is all I have been seeking from the beginning. That is actally very helpful since I am losing between 6-9ppm per day even with my high stabilizer. Something is causing this and I am determined to figure out what. I guess I will just have to do it someplace else.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Shocking

    Quote Originally Posted by trilogy problems View Post
    I was not trying to offend anyone and am sorry that I did.
    One of the problems is, you don't listen to a lot of what you write (and presumably, what you say). And, you haven't listened all that well to us, either.

    So, let me be very plain. You have completely offended multiple people here. I have multiple emails, that came directly to me. I suggested that you needed to be quiet for awhile, but you didn't listen. Ironically, I imagine that you didn't actually intend to be offensive: you probably don't see anything really offensive about what you said or did. That too, is part of the problem: when someone doesn't see what they are doing wrong, it's hard for them to correct it, even if they want to do so.

    If you've got the money you imply . . . I have ALWAYS said that the easiest way to care for a pool is to hire a good service guy. That is the course of action I suggest for you. In any case, you won't be posting here for 6 months.

  6. #16
    chem geek is offline PF Supporter Whibble Konker chem geek 4 stars chem geek 4 stars chem geek 4 stars chem geek 4 stars
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    Default Re: Shocking

    Quote Originally Posted by trilogy problems View Post
    Chem Geek -I have just read through the CPO trianing and it is more of the same information I am tryng to use to possibly make chlorinating my pool easier, so Thank you. Though I dont understand why everyone keeps going back to the fact I only want to chlorinate my pool weekly? I never said this and to be clear it is not my intenton. Until this winter and dealing with trying to get our pool fixed, did I become aware of the relationship betweeen the CYA and Cl. SO upon opening, I started the process of trying to get that level down as soon as it became aparant that mine was definately out of control. From reading the forums the only way I have seen to get CYA out is to drain and then use diffent chemicals so it does not rise like that again. Hence I will only be shocking with the burn out Burn out 35, if I even need to shock at all. Still though come the issue of what should I run my CYA out since I do have the problem with all of the newly chlorinated water going into a 8 inch baby pool, and other features, and it uses the chlorine to quickly since the water is so shallow. I assume a bit higher than many run it, but I have no clue where??? That was also why the question about the UV sanitizer has come into question. The pool builder also want to stop dumping so much into the pool, again maybe shocking but true. They feel as though since they did not do a two pump system to run all of our water features, and it can not be retrofitted to do so, if we were able to have an additional element to deal with the sanitation, it would definately reduce the chemical consumption. As far as the UV, this is soley their thoughts, but I have asked the qestion several times and not gotten an awnser, could my extrely high CYA of 500 or more be the main contributing factor to our bi-weekly shocks, high chlorine tab consumption and our need to pour one gallon of chlorine into each pool feature, that sit empty until we actively turn them on, to sanitize them so that all the crap does not get in the pool and have the possibily to cause more problems. They are all in agreement to try your methods but due to the large number of water features we will most likely always use more than their average pool customers.

    I hope you guys might have a suggestion as to this, but if not then I guess I will give up and just do whatever. But not all pools are the same and maybe unfortunately a forum like this is not the place for someone who doesnt have a 15,000 gallon oval liner pool. Our back yard is a modified version of a resort pool. Lots of differnt aspects to deal with and I was just trying to do it different and see if anything changes. Thanks in advance if you have some suggestions, and if not sorry I upset eveyone.
    With such a high CYA level and not having a proportionately high FC level, algae is able to grow faster than chlorine can kill it. That is what leads to a very high chlorine demand, even if you don't see any visible algae since algae may not be visible until it gets numerous enough and clumps to reflect/absorb enough light. The amount of active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) in the water that is the disinfectant that kills bacteria and that kills algae and prevents its growth is proportional to the FC/CYA ratio. This is why at higher CYA levels if you don't proportionately raise the FC level that problems can occur, including unusually high chlorine demand from trying to keep up with killing nascent algae.

    I don't understand why you are opposed to getting chlorinating liquid from a pool store that is more concentrated (typically 10% or 12.5%) if you don't want to carry as much 6% bleach. Even if it's more expensive per FC, it won't be that much more. However, lithium hypochlorite (which is the chlorine in Burn Out 35) is VERY, VERY, VERY expensive for the chlorine you get. Yes, it is 35% available chlorine, but PER FC it is over 5 times as expensive as bleach or chlorinating liquid (see Cost Comparison of Chlorine Sources). Obviously you can use it if you want to, but I want to make sure you understand the extraordinary premium in price you are paying to carry 1/3rd to 1/6th the weight. Also, you refer to using it for shocking, but what will you be using for regular chlorination if you are going to be dosing more than once a week? If you use stabilized chlorine such as Trichlor tabs/pucks, then that will increase the CYA level. The following are chemical facts that are independent of concentration of product or of pool size:

    For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it will also increase Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm.
    For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it will also increase CYA by 9 ppm.
    For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it will also increase Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 7 ppm.

    The builder doesn't know what he is talking about if he thinks that a UV system is going to help you reduce your chlorine amount. Use your head here and think about where chlorine gets used. The greatest loss of chlorine daily is from breakdown from the UV in sunlight (the UV system will also breakdown some chlorine, but not that much since most are woefully undersized). There is less breakdown with higher CYA levels, even with proportionately higher FC levels, but you'll still lose anywhere from 15% to 50% of your FC level depending on your CYA level (15% loss at around 100 ppm CYA, 50% loss at around 40 ppm CYA, assuming a full long day of sun at the peak of summer). Your chlorine is not getting lost more quickly due to the shallow water. Over 97% of it is bound to CYA and does not evaporate. All a UV system is good for is killing Cryptosporidium parvum oocysts which are not a problem in residential pools unless you let some sick person with diarrhea into your pool. It's an issue in commercial/public pools where one person can infect dozens or more.

    After loss from sunlight, the next largest chlorine loss in a residential pool is either thermal loss at around 0.3 to 0.7 ppm FC depending on water temp or it's bather load IF the pool is small and you have a lot of bathers or people urinating in the pool. After that, there is a small loss from chlorine oxidizing CYA at around 0.1 to 0.3 ppm FC per day. However, in your pool right now with the very large chlorine loss, it's mostly trying to kill algae because the active chlorine level simply isn't high enough. So if you don't want to take care of that directly by lowering your CYA level and shocking to a higher FC and thereafter maintaining an appropriate FC/CYA, then there are other ways for you to spend money at the pool store to prevent algae growth including the use of algicides (PolyQuat 60 being the best) and phosphate removers and even copper ion products if you don't care about staining your pool surfaces or turning blond hair greenish. Obviously, we don't recommend those here (except for PolyQuat 60 if one really wants to have some supplemental algae prevention; 50 ppm Borates is another alternative that can help a little), but it's your pool and you do whatever you want with it.

    I think what got people offended here was your digging in your heels that you would not stop using BioGuard or other pool store products before even listening to us about the pros and cons of various products. This site is all about education and if you come here with a closed mind then that puts people off. If after learning the truth based on actual chemistry and real-world experiences you still decide to use more expensive pool store products, then that is fine since you will be doing so with the knowledge of the pros and cons of such choices. There is no question that using Trichlor pucks/tabs can be more convenient for some people and if they then deal with the side effects by buying other products at additional expense, then so be it -- that's a cost/convenience tradeoff made as an informed decision.

    Also, if you want the most convenience and have money to spend, then consider getting a saltwater chlorine generator system. Otherwise, as Ben says, a pool service is the easiest if you've got money to spend.
    Last edited by chem geek; 04-21-2012 at 07:57 PM.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Shocking

    There is not much to add other than the digs at Wal-Mart shoppers and employees. My issues with Wal-Mart are not with the folks in the stores but with certain corporate policies I won't go into. I don't turn my nose at people who shop there because they need to save money and time, nor at people who work there because they need jobs. I go there to buy things I cannot get elsewhere such as the 6-way test kit. It is a simple as that.

    It is also very simple: if the advice here conflicts with the advice you get elsewhere you must choose whose advice to follow. Too often people try to mix and match and that doesn't work when advice conflicts. As happened here we then get blamed and told "Well, if you don't want to help!". Imagine asking a teacher for help with spelling (Watermom is a teacher) and then constantly telling her "But Sally down at the advertising agency says to spell it this way!" That teacher will say "Then spell it the way Sally says and let me help someone else." So when someone wants to do that, we back off.

    Our methods work and have worked for many thousand of pool owners. Yesterday I pulled the cover off my pool and started my filter. It was green. Today it is blue and clear with some dusty junk on the bottom and tomorrow that will be clean, too. Simple, no magic. Just 5 gallons of LC at the right time and I brushed the floor to knock the stuff loose. I haven't even vacuumed yet or started adding the CYA for the season.

    You are having far more trouble than you need. Ultimately, every pool is the SOLE responsibility of the owner, not forums you find on the Internet. We can only advise as best we can from the info you give us and from our shared experinces. We can only recommend actions and if you choose not to follow them...THE RESULTS ARE STILL YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!
    Carl

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