Questions for pool experts (or quasi experts)...

[bigdog360]

Hello, i am new to this forum and am moving to Austin, TX. I am building a pool, and I have some questions after meeting with two different pool builders (specifically Cody pools-national brand- and Lakeside pools-local to Austin).
After my meeting with these builders, here are my questions:

1. Pump system - the systems introduced to us include the whisper flow by pentair vs. the inteleflow intelligent variable speed pump by pentair. The builder explained that the whisper flow is a fixed speed that would need to be replaced in three- six years while the inteleflow was a variable self adjusting pump that would last for 15 years (and cheaper in the long run). Accurate proclamations?
2. Salt vs. Chlorine - after the explanation, it seems that pH will need to be calibrated with both systems. Salt systems provide a "smoother" pool feeling, yet can erode any rocks that outline the pool. With both systems, by products of chlorine will exist. What is the feeling upon the board? - salt vs chlorine? The pool builder at Cody seemed to be pro chlorine.
3. Cleaning system - manual vs. robot vs. high powered pump with in pool sprinkler systems. Specifically, the builder explained that the mdx vgb compliant debris drain with sprinklers eliminates the need for any other cleaning systems due to the continuous nature of the system (obviously the most expensive upfront - yet over the long run should pay for itself). What do you recommend, in general?
4. Ultraviolet pool cleaner - as explained above, the salt vs chlorine debate is irrevelant as both produce the chlorine by products. One pool builder explained that an ultraviolet system (specifically the Spectrum light system) will eliminate the by products in any system and can infact make the water drinkable. Generally, does this system actually clean the water and does it effectlvely remove the chlorine by products? Also, how long does it last?
5. Lining - pebble vs plaster? one pool builder said he would give a pebble lining as this would last longer and said he would warranty for 15 years. Does this sound right/accurate?


I know that I am asking several complex questions, but any assistance would be appreciated.
Thank you.

[aylad]

Hi bigdog, and welcome to the forum!!

I can't answer all of your questions, but I can contribute toward a couple of them, and I'm sure someone will be along shortly to answer the rest.

Regarding salt vs. chlorine--they're the same thing! When you have a salt pool, the SWG takes that salt in the water and generates the chlorine for the pool. So--it's still a chlorine pool, the only difference is that with the salt pool the chlorine is being generated in the pool itself, and with a standard chlorine pool, you have to add it manually. So...either way there will be byproducts, but what byproducts you mean will depend on the chlorination method. Using bleach, or pool chlorine, your byproducts are water, chlorine, and salt. With Cal hypo, it's chlorine and calcium. With dichlor or trichlor, it's chlorine, acid, and stabilizer.. So...with a SWCG, you do have to keep an eye on your pH, and adjust it periodically, but otherwise the pool is pretty much maintenance free once you get things balanced. With manually added chlorine, you have to make sure your chlorine levels don't get too low, and have to keep a closer eye on your other parameters, depending on which form of chlorine you're using.

The ultraviolet system isn't going to do anything about your pH, calcium, or acid levels, if you're considering those to be the chlorine byproducts. UV light will disinfect the water, but onlythe water within the unit itself--once the water leaves the unit and goes into the pool, you're still going to have to have a chlorine residual to keep the water clean enough to swim in. So in most cases, you're wasting your money on the UV unit--I personally would leave that out and spend the money on a good SWCG system.

[PoolDoc]

Hi BigDog;

As you note, these are complicated questions, and you'll really need to split them off, and ask them separately. Otherwise, you'll end up with a rather confusing and jumbled thread, as one poster answers one question, and the next poster responds to a different question. So . . . I'll give you some brief starter answers, but then ask you to pick one of the topics, and start a NEW thread, asking just that question. If you want to pick two, that's OK too, but please don't try to tackle all 5 at once.

1. A *properly sized* 2 speed whisperflo is likely to be more efficient than the one-size-will-sorta-fit-all Intelliflo. The difficulty here is that the not many pool builders understand hydraulics well enough to reliably size pumps. So, they tend to oversize them, which wastes electricity and produces poorer water quality, at least with sand filters. The claim that the Intelliflo will outlast the Whisperflo by a factor of 3 - 5x is bogus -- I'd put that contractor on my "trust ONLY after verifying" list. Even if it were true (and I'm pretty sure it's not), the Intellflo you'd be buying hasn't been MADE for 15 years, so no one KNOWS how long they will last.

2. Salt is not "vs. chlorine"; it IS chlorine. SWCG's are Salt Water Chlorine Generators . . . though bogus makers like to call them SWGs (Salt Water Generators) even though they do NOT generate salt; you have to add it. Some makers prefer "Salt System", the better to mislead you.

You can get the "smooth" feeling by adding salt to ANY pool, whether you have an SWCG or not.

And the rock problem . . . we're not sure. There's a blog, thepoolbiz.blogspot.com, by a guy who's pretty bright and knowledgeable, but who absolutely foams at the mouth about SWCGs. HOWEVER, in areas like his (and yours) where it can be quite dry in summer, salt can from splashout can concentrate on rock ledges, coping and such where it MAY cause the problems he describes. (I just found out today that he's been closely associated with the EcoSmarte copper & 'active oxygen' systems. And SWCG's have been hitting that market pretty hard. So, that may be the reason for all the mouth foam!)

My best guess, at present, is that SWCG's are not a good idea in pools with natural stone, that are located in dry climates. But, that's a guess.

3. Cleaning systems -- ask others. I've never liked any of them that well -- it always seemed like I spent more time working on them then I would have just vacuuming the pool. From what I've heard, the in-floor systems seem to work well for the first few years, but then die forever. But, ask this question in the cleaner section; there are lots of people here who have lots of different systems. You may need to wait a month or so: most pool owners are still hibernating!

4. I assume you're talking about this, spectralightuv . com? (Not gonna give them a free link up, and boost their Google standings!). I scanned their site -- it's a mixture of truth, half-truth, and bogosity. I did pick up an nice article on copper-silver systems from them, but some of their "scientific links" were dead, and others, weren't science. Anyone who thinks the PPOA is a scientifically based organization has already lost points in my book.

Here's a truth: hydrogen peroxide + UV can produce outstanding water quality in a lightly loaded indoor pool. Been there, done that over 20 years ago! But it was very expensive, fairly high maintenance AND I had to add polyquat to control some biofilms in stagnant corners. I loved swimming in that pool, however! It was a 3rd home belonging to a mega-rich customer, so when I went up there, I was usually in the house alone. I'd get up there in the evening, swim my laps, go to bed, get up, service the pool, chemicals and system, clean up, swim my laps again, and drive back to Chattanooga. It was nice being able to swim and look at Grandfather mountain when I was swimming the northbound laps!

Here's a half-truth: UV can help eliminate chloramines, THMs and other DBPs. (TRUE) But they claim it has this value on OUTDOOR pools. (NOT TRUE) In the please-get-a-clue category . . . outdoor pools ALREADY have UV exposure. It's called "SUNLIGHT" and it's why you have to add stabilizer to keep chlorine from all going bye-bye. UV not only breaks down chloramines, it breaks down chlorine!

And, a bogosity: The bladder cancer study they quote is an older one and not well done, with the result that it really doesn't provide reliable information. But, worse: it is an INDOOR pool study. Outdoor pools do NOT have the trapped air problem indoor pools have, and they DO have solar UV. So, they are trying to sell you UV for an outdoor pool, using an bad indoor pool study: very bogus!

5. About warranties: In my experience, the longer the warranty, the more bogus the company! If your pool builder has not been around for 20+ years AND does not have a clear business succession plan, passing his business on -- intact -- to his competent and committed son . . . that 15 year warranty doesn't mean squat.

Several years back, there were some pool recoating companies that were competing with each other to see how long a warranty they could offer on their fiberglass recoating products. They got up to 50 years. As far as I can tell, NONE of those companies is still in business. I think the company that made it the longest, lasted about 10 years!

Good luck!

[waterbear]

bigdog360,
Listen to PoolDoc. He speaks truth!

For example, the builder saying that the whisperflo will only last 3 to 6 years is just trying to sell you up to a more expensive product that he probably has a better profit margin on. Truth is the the two pumps use IDENTICAL pump parts, only difference is the motor and control electronics on the intelleflo vs a one or two speed "standard' motor on the whisperflo, and they are both made by Pentair. Considering that the whisperflo is the simpler design I would put my money on it being the one to perform longer without problems! (And I have a whisperflo on my own pool!)