My Deep Blue Water is Now a Light Green-Blue???

[Spike]

I just finished construction of a brand new in ground pool with an Aqua White PebbleTec finish (blue based plaster). After filling it with well water (no detectable concentrations of iron or coipper), it was a deep bright blue and looked beautiful.

My pool contractor was paid to do a "start up", so he shows up, dumps a gallong of muriatic acid in without even testing the water conditions, shocks the heck out of it, and puts in Jack's Magic Magenta.

Instant dark green murk! He leaves sayoing its normal and will clear up in a few hours. Of course it doesn't, and I start to panic because the plaster is still curing and I don't want it to be permanently stained.

Asking this particular contractor for help is like asking someone who just ran you over becasue they don't know how to drive to back up and do it again, so I attempt to fix this myself. I bring water samples to local pool store, confirm no minerals (in well water and pool water), and find out the pool water is very acidic (low pH), calcium deficient (soft), extremely low alkalinity (20), and has mega chlorine (6). This is an ozone, mineral ionization system by Jandy so the chlorine levels should be kept fairly low.

So I get calcium chloride flakes to increase the hardness, sodium bicarbonate to raise the alkalinity, and an algae treatment and mineral treatment as the supply store says they are recommended for all pool startups.

After treatment, the pool has mostly cleared and actually looks pretty good, but while it was a deep bright blue when it was first filled (and before any chemicals were added), not its kind of a pale blue-green.

Everything seems to be in balance now, but I am now just a tad on the high side on alkalinity, hardness and pH.

I want to get back to the deep blue waters I had...any suggestions?

[PoolDoc]

Hi Spike;

We don't usually try to support pools with "mineral" attachments, much less "minerals" + ozone. The benefits of "mineral" units, except to dealer bottom lines, are pretty minimal . . . but the problems are quite real. When you add ozone to that, you've created a witch's brew that's pretty hard to trouble shoot. Here's why:

1. Pool testing for minerals is not sensitive enough to be reliable, for a variety of reasons. I checked your IP address, and you appear to be in a region of Georgia where you could pretty nasty minerals in your well water. (Nasty, from a pool point of view. People's guts are much more adaptable.) If you use the same water in your house, and do NOT have a softener, a better way to check for minerals is to look inside your toilet tank. If it's light grey or light brown, you are probably OK. Anything else, and you DO have minerals that can cause pool problems. Alternatively, you could have your well company test your water: most of them send the water off to actual labs, and get pretty accurate results back.

2. All of the "minerals" used in pool treatment -- copper, silver, zinc -- can affect pool plaster and water color. Getting the pH low could well have dumped a BUNCH of those "minerals" (really, metals!) into your water.

3. Depending how much "gas" the ozone generator is pumping into the water -- and that gas is MOSTLY air -- you may be stripping your alkalinity. Plaster pools with ozone often end up with damaged plaster, not because of the ozone, but because of the aeration.

4. Jack's Magic "MAGENTA" is listed as

This product is GREAT FOR START UPS; it helps control plaster dust. Highly effective in all pool sanitizer systems including salt chlorine generators, The Magenta Stuff cleans and helps prevent scaling of salt cells, helping to extend cell life; it also will not yield phosphates

and the MSDS shows it as an "acrylic acid copolymer". This means it's probably something like Polyacrylic acid. This has variable properties (it's used in baby diapers, as an absorbant), but in a pool it probably can disperse calcium dust. And, depending on how it reacts with chlorine, it may REMAIN in your pool for a long time.

4. Your "mineral" treatment adds to your witch's brew. Your algae treatment may have added more "minerals" (copper, a metal!); your mineral treatment might be HEPD, or EDTA or any of several other things, and these ALSO affect water color, and react in unpredictable ways with all the OTHER chemicals you've added.

So . . . if you want to figure things out, we've got to simplify. Right now, your pool's chemistry is so complex that nobody but God understands what's happening in it. If you choose to go with OUR advice, do this:

1. Turn your pump on, and leave it on, till this is all cleaned up. Make sure that the pool returns are directed so that they do NOT blow against your new plaster, but try (if possible) to not have them 'riffle' the surface either. Turn off your ozone unit, and make sure it's not letting air into your pool. Remove your mineral cartridge, or do whatever you have to, to get it OUT of your pool water.

2. Buy a cheap OTO / phenol red drop kit and TEST your pool, your own self. ORDER a Taylor kit with a DPD-FAS chlorine test; you can use the link below in my signature to order from Amazon. Do NOT get a K2005, which has a DPD tablet chlorine test!

3. Use borax (20 Mule Team from Walmart, etc -- NOT "Boraxo", a soap!) to RAISE your pH; use muriatic acid from Lowes, or wherever to lower it (WATCH THE FUMES!!) Make sure your pump is on before doing anything; add borax (as needed) one box per 4 hours per 10,000 gallons SLOWLY directly to the skimmer (basket in place); add muriatic acid 1/8 of a jug (1 pint) at a time per 4 hours per 10,000 gallons.

4. Adust your pH to between 7.2 and 7.6.

5. Use bleach -- 6% plain household bleach, NOT scented -- 1/2 gallon added in late evening, only if your chlorine level is below 1 ppm.

6. If you can find some 60% polyquat (See poolsolutions.com/polyquat.html), use that as preventative algicide.

7. Do NOT put ANYTHING else in the pool. The chemicals I listed have the best chance of not reacting further, while preserving your pool.

8. Brush your pool daily, to protect the plaster.

9. Report back test results, color, toilet tank interior color, etc.

Good luck!

[waterbear]

You have a pebble tec finish and the contracted started it up by dumping in acid. This is fairly normal and the acid startup is used to expose the aggregate. Because of the low pH the TA will be virtually non existent.
Acid start ups are one of the three ways to start a new plaster pool and are the most common for aggregate finishes. Hopefully, you have not damaged the finish in your quest for 'blue water' before the pool had been started properly.

Also, to the best of my knowledge Jandy (owned by Zodiac) does not make mineral/ozone systems but do have mineral/salt systems (Fusion Soft) which is basically the same as their parent company's Duo Clear (Zodiac). These combine a SWCG with a Nature 2 cartridge. The N2 puts silver and copper into your water and the salt generator is undersized so it really cannot produce enough chlorine for the size pools it is recommended for. Running low chlorine with copper and silver will NOT give you sanitized water. Period!

[Spike]

Thanks for taking the time for the detailed replies. All very helpful info.

On the acid startup, I understand this is an accepted practice. However, the contractor said the water typically clears in a few hours and it was still a green swamp over 24 hours later.

I think he just over did it and I was concerned that the stained water could stain the plaster that was still curing.

So it was left heavily acidic (and swampy green) for over a day before I brought the alkalinity and hardness levels back up.

It actually looks pretty great right now...despite heavy rains over tje past sever days.

I should have also added that the PebbleTec was acid washed prior to the pool being filled, so most of the literature I have read says there is no need to maintain a low pH acidic chemistry in tje water after tje acid wash is done.

Do the experts here agree with this?

[PoolDoc]

For Pebble Tec start-up, your best bet is to ask Pebble-Tec (the company, not your dealer). They are the ones who know what's actually in Pebble Tec, and how it might react: http://www.pebbletec.com/service_support.aspx

However, their pool chemistry instructions are pretty much industry boiler-plate, which means they (a) really don't know or (b) just want to CYA by saying the "OFFICIAL" 'right stuff'. If I were you, I'd call (and then recall) till you happen to luck onto a support phone tech who actually knows something besides what's in their phone script.

BTW, the Jacks Magic product line is not bad, but it is seriously over-hyped and involves some deceptive elements. For example, the "Blue Stuff", "Pink Stuff", "Purple Stuff", "Step Stuff" and "Blue Vinyl Stuff" are all the EXACTLY same thing (HEDP) except for the dyes.

[Spike]

Pebble Tec just confirmed that the acid wash should be done before the pool is filled, and after filled the objective is to keep the pH and alkalinity balanced...no need to keep the water acidic after its acid washed and filled.

So I did what should have been done...balanced everything...whew!

Thanks for the feedback.

[PoolDoc]

I'd encourage to still do the metal checking I suggested (back of the toilet), ID the actual units on your pool (per Waterbear), set yourself up to do REAL testing yourself, and SERIOUSLY consider just saying NO! to metal ("mineral") treatment of pools.

Metals, concrete based pool finishes (like Pebble-Tec) and pool owners who are particular about finish appearance are NOT a compatible blend. But, by the time you realize that the problem is IN the finish, and not just in the water, you will have a hard time ever getting back to the starting point you're at right now. If you actually have ozone, and want to continue using it, that's fine, as long as you stay on top of your alkalinity. But, there's no way to do metals -- from cartridges, ionizers, pellets, algaecides or what-not -- and maintain a pristine finish.

[Spike]

Just for arguments sake, if I do away with the mineral. Cartridge, what ate the implications for a system originally configured this way.

Just need to use more chlorine than I would otherwise need with the mineral cartridge?

[PoolDoc]

We've never seen any evidence that they do anything but cause trouble. Keep in mind, that's in comparison to a BBB operated pool.

With the hit-or-miss system most home owners use under instruction from pool stores, the mineral cartridge creates a sort of belt-and-suspenders approach to keeping pants up. It's just that it's a rotten leather belt, backed up by a pair of suspenders that are hanging by a thread! We think it's better to ditch the suspenders, and use a good belt, so to speak.

My illustration may not be clear, so I'll state it differently.

The pool-store chemical treatment method produces a world of problems AND frequently leads to algae. A mineral system creates a weakly algicidal residue, that can help a badly managed pool turn green fewer times. We thing the better option -- easier, cheaper, more effective -- is to use a GOOD management system that doesn't need to be backed up by a weakly algicidal mineral system that brings a new set of problems along with it.

Regarding your specific system, without model numbers I can't be completely sure, but as a rule, you can disable them, try life without it, and revert to the 'as-built' process with no problems (other than the ones inherent to the mineral process).

[waterbear]

Just for arguments sake, if I do away with the mineral. Cartridge, what ate the implications for a system originally configured this way.

Just need to use more chlorine than I would otherwise need with the mineral cartridge?

If you have a combo system (SWCG and N2 cart) then you probably won't be able to generate enough chlorine unless they oversized the unit for your pool. The bad new is that even with the mineral system you will not be able to generate enough chlorine since you really cannot run lower chlorine levels and have trouble free water with a mneral cart. You need to run normal chlorine levels. If not too late have the builder replace the unit with a plain SWCG.