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Thread: Acid and Base Demand tests: Useful or Not?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: K1005 I-care Test Kit

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlD View Post
    Evan,
    I'm willing to take your chastisement about the test kit versions. Yes, I dropped the ball on that one, though I DO like the K1000 OTO kit best.

    But I'm not a pool pro, and neither are my fellow mods, as you and Ben are. I'm a shade tree mechanic as it were (as I am with my motorcycles) and I am always thinking about what is easiest and simplest for the homeowner to use to run his / her pool.
    Let's not forget that I am still a home pool owner and a lazy one at that!
    But our gradualist approach permiates ALL of our recommendations for chemical additions, whether it's acid, borax, baking soda, soda ash, or CYA. And we teach POP as part of that. We teach that POP is CRITICAL for cleaning up an algae bloom or for a Baq conversion. Yet you would have us think that applying it to an acid or base demand situation is too much and they'll run back to the "Magic in a Bottle" and get it trouble.

    Well, you are not wrong. Many people will. We see it all the time when those incapable of POP have a bloom and ignore our advice (including yours) and run back to the pool store for the magic bottle. There's really nothing you or I can do about that.
    However, if we offer an 'advanced alternative' to save a bit of time that really is not THAT advanced it might keep a few more of them with us. I am not advocating using peroxide to clean a swamp, even though it works. (although I have mentioned Proteam System Saver, which is sodium percarbonate which forms peroxide when dissolved since it's a matter of just following package directions for a really badly foulded pool with a lot of debris on the bottom).
    But does that mean we abandon the gradualist approach? Nobody likes to test two or 3 times a day. I sure don't. But when I have a problem (which usually happens when I come back from vacation or after a big storm, or days of storms) I test, add, test, add, etc.

    So here's what I propose: You come up with a simplified, clear way to use acid demand that works for homeowners and I'll try it out. We can clean it up, simplify it, and make sure it's easy to use at pool side and not a white lab coat test. In other words, we can add it to the tool kit for those who want to use it as an alternate to the more gradual approach.
    Carl, one thing I pride myself on is taking things and making them simple. An example is explanations for chemical processes in the pool. I usually let chem geek list all the chemical equations (not that I can't) and instead, explain things with simple analogies that just about anyone can grasp such as shaking up a bottle of club soda to make it go flat when explaining aerating a pool. I am not saying one way is better than another, I just want to exaplain complicated processes to the widest possible audience. Chem geeks equations and charts are needed and extremely useful to us! However, even my eyes have glazed over at first reading of some of them and it has taken a while to digest all the info, even with my chemistry background.

    As far as KISS, I have been chastised for saying that in posts in the past! I am a firm believer that the easiest way is the best way. In this case I believe that using a demand test to reach a target pH is easier than adding a bit, waiting, testing, adding a bit more, waiting some more, and testing again. When newbies are adjusting their pools they want to know HOW MUCH of something to put in. To tell them just add a little bit and wait and retest can be frustrating. How much is a little bit? I tell them that start with a pint of acd per 10k gallons of water since that amount will usually make some change but not too much change in pH (with average TA it should not drop the pH more than about .4 and if they need to add acid then their pH is at least 7.8) If they are trying to lower a high TA this approach will take quite a long time and they really have no clue how much acid is ok to add all at once. If they do a demand test and find that they need a gallon of acid to lower the pH to the desired target we have then saved them at possibly a day or more of testing before they can start aeration, have we not?.

    I don't mind having alternate approaches, though I do sometimes have to be reminded of that. But I do like alternates to be clear.

    You see, I like simple, easy-to-remember approaches, preferably with a catch-phrase to help newbies and poolowners remember it. That's why I came up with "B-B-B" for Bleach, Borax, and Baking Soda. Is it complete? No. It omits acid, soda ash, polyquat and CYA. But it's catchy and easy to remember.
    Then, when someone is using bleach for chlorinating just tell them to remember the ABCs of normal maintenace. Acid, Bleach, and CYA! (You're Welcome!)
    It's a "hook" so to speak. "Ratchet down" for the TA lowering is similar to clarify the process. "Rule of Thumb" makes it easy to estimate the bleach or LC you need if you can't get to the Pool Calculator. "Shot Glass" encapsulates the method of dilution for extending OTO testing. Maybe this will be the "One-Shot" approach to raising pH. I don't know.

    What I'm saying is I'm willing to work with you on it. I can't speak for the other mods or Ben, just me.

    Carl

    PS: I wrote this before Ben posted his last post. I should add that I will defer to Ben on modifying anything I put in this post. Still, if A/B testing is to be added to the tool box, even as an occasional test, it needs to robust and simple, not delicate and complicated, or it WILL cause more trouble than it's worth for the homeowner and non-chemist.C
    If you have ever done the test is IS robust and simple! Even the treatment tables can be simplified. The only column you need to look at for a pool is the 1000 gal column and have a calculator handy to multiply the amount of acid or base needed by the number of "1000 gallons" in the pool in question! (If we are using borax for the base we then double that number). It's really not rocket science and is probably easier than testing calcium (it is certainly faster in many cases!) It is certainly easier to get a results that is not ambiguous then when testing CYA, is it not?
    Last edited by waterbear; 09-05-2011 at 01:08 PM.
    Retired pool store and commercial pool maintenance guy.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: K1005 I-care Test Kit

    Evan,
    Everybody uses ABC for everything. I thought about it and rejected it. And the old detergent commercial, "Now, with bleach, Borax and brighteners!" kept running through my head... and B-B-B was born and now has spread or infected other sites as well. Can't put the genie back in the bottle.

    While you and Ben are both very good at making it simple, you still need the reality check of non-pros to prove the validity of what you think is easy. But saying the test is easy after Ben's description of the myriad mess-ups isn't enough. We need to ensure it is, like the best guess table or all the work we've all done to make the TA lowering easy to understand.

    We CAN have multiple approaches. That is what differs our board from some others that insist there should only be one way to do things ( no names!)

    Carl
    Carl

  3. #23
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    Thumbs up Re: K1005 I-care Test Kit

    Hey all

    Nice thread!

    I like the acid and base demand tests! However, I'm very familiar with them.

    I use the Taylor 1000 R0014 for my 3X a day tests, but break out the 2006 R0004 when the pH sits at the edge (either 7.2 or 7.8) for more than a day and use the A/B demand test to calculate the proper amount of chem to add. I've been able to use the a/b tests to 'one dump' dose many pools, but I was a service dude and actually cared about their bank balance (they paid $$$ every time I stepped into their yard).

    I want to remind everyone (although I KNOW y'all know it) that the 'ideal' chem ranges are broad enough that there is a lot of room 'to boogie'. Therefore, you can add 3/4 of what the demand test tells you and probably be in the 'good' range and then adjust from there.

    I don't think we need to tell folks to buy a special kit to do the a/b tests, but if they already have it, it can be useful!
    Luv & Luk, Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill libraries

  4. #24
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    Default Re: K1005 I-care Test Kit

    Was wondering when you would join the party, Ted!
    Retired pool store and commercial pool maintenance guy.

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    Default Re: Acid and Base Demand tests: Useful or Not?

    Wow, this is the first time I looked at this thread. Three pages on whether the acid/base demand tests are useful. My two cents (and that is probably generous on what its worth). I never use it on my pool. Add a little, wait add some more. But on my spa, it is quite useful, particularly the acid demand reagent. An extra tablespoon of acid can cause a drastic overshoot. I find that the test brings me very close to a desired result.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Acid and Base Demand tests: Useful or Not?

    Quote Originally Posted by CrisL View Post
    Wow, this is the first time I looked at this thread. Three pages on whether the acid/base demand tests are useful. My two cents (and that is probably generous on what its worth). I never use it on my pool. Add a little, wait add some more. But on my spa, it is quite useful, particularly the acid demand reagent. An extra tablespoon of acid can cause a drastic overshoot. I find that the test brings me very close to a desired result.
    I agree, for a small pool or a spa they become much more useful since the danger of overdosing is much higher!. I am working on the second draft of a howto and will email it to Ben once it's done. Hope to get it done over the next two weeks since I just started my Xmas break from work.
    Retired pool store and commercial pool maintenance guy.

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    Default Re: Acid and Base Demand tests: Useful or Not?

    Yes, picking up an old thread... haven't been on in a couple of years (my excuse).

    I ignored my kit's AD test for several years, relying upon Pool Calculator dot com or my own hybrid spreadsheet (calcs ripped from a perfectly good 2007 TFP post by chem geek, and bolstered by results generated by the Taylor watergram and industry LSI tables - I guess I'm what PoolDoc referred to as an "OCD" guy) to determine the right dose of MA.

    Last year, I fashioned a hybrid test kit using a Taylor midget comparator (K-1285-2 phenol) and R-0853 ADR and leftover parts from old CYA (9193/4) and salt (K-1766) tests, and discovered that a drop or two of acid demand reagent helped me to validate my color-matching acumen. It's not always easy to tell 7.9 from 8.0 or 8.1 but the ADR drop took the color out of deep purple and into a range I could see without plugging in the daylight lamp.

    So, my "vote" is with waterbear on this one; though I appreciate Carl and PoolDoc's (and waterbear's) concerns regarding newbie testing. If I continue to post here, I promise to attempt to answer new poster enquiries with consideration for what has already been discussed.
    16'x29' free-form 14K gal IG gunite pool; SWCG & sodium hypochlorite 8.25%; Hayward SwimClear C4025 cartridge filter; Hayward SP3202VSP TriStar Variable Speed Pool Pump; custom test kit based on Taylor K-2006C; city; PF:8.6

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Acid and Base Demand tests: Useful or Not?

    I understand that the acid / base demand test can have value under certain conditions. But if you want to know the difference between 7.8 and 8.0, reliably, a calibrated pH meter is a better option.

    It's also true that, if a pool's pH is out of range, the ABD test can allow you (well, us) to get a handle on whether 'this newbie pool' needs adjustment, or needs panic treatment to minimize damage.

    But, I do wish that some of the tests -- and particularly that stinking Taylor manual -- came with a seal that said, "Open only under direction from PF mods or team members."

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Acid and Base Demand tests: Useful or Not?

    I still have not used the ad or bd tests. I think once you get into a rhythm with B-B-B you tend to have less problems every season. I have backed away in my mind from "useless" to "only needed when there is a big problem with pH"
    Carl
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    Default Re: Acid and Base Demand tests: Useful or Not?

    Ben
    I have a why, when, and howto on on the demand tests about 3/4 done. I will have more time after this Wednesday to try and finish them up and mail them to you. Right now it is rather long so I want to try and simplify and shorten it some more.
    Retired pool store and commercial pool maintenance guy.

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