Help - problems with Bioguard MS11

[kevinm]

I'm new to both pools as well as salt generators. The house we've moved into has both.

I've researched and learned quite a bit about both in the last couple of days (especially from this forum - thank you all).

The pool was opened last Friday and I took a water sample in to be tested on Sunday. Here are the results:

saturation idx: 1
CYA: 25
Tot chlorine: 0
free chlorine: 0
ph: 8.4
demand drops:8
tot alkalinity: 170
tot hardness: 170
minerals: 3000

The mineral springs system was reading 1500ppm at the time of the test.

When opened they added 4lbs of CLC.

They suggested that I add 4 bags of beginnings - 30lbs each (I since have found out I can use regular solar salt), which I did and also I added 2 40lb bags of solar salt.

Now the system reads 1700ppm which according to the calculator I found on this site (thanks again) it should've added 800ppm.

They also suggested that I add 10pts of Muriatic acid - which I did.

I noticed that the "check cell" light was on as well.

Tonight I checked ph and cl - ph was still a little high but chlorine was still 0. So, I checked the main control panel and noticed that the check cell light is on. I cleaned the cell. Now, when I turn it back to the on position the generating light comes on for a short while and then goes off and the check cell light comes back on (along with the mineral light). I added about a half gallon of Clorox (that's all my wife had in the laundry room).

The pool is a 25k gallon gunite. The unit and pool were installed in 2002.

Any thoughts from all of you experts?

Thanks in advance,
Kevin

[PatL34]

Could be not enough flow or not enough salt.

Check with the manual and try and see what the chemical levels you have to run at and post what you find. Also what the check cell light is meant to indicate. We'll see what we can do from there.

Pat

[Beautye350]

Kevin,

I believe the general concensus here is that you need to get your water chemistry corrected before turning on the SWG. Do you have updated results since you added the acid?

First off, get a drop-based water test-kit. Once again, I will plug Ben's as that is what I have and I love it. In the meantime, go out and get an HTH kit from Walmart or something similar. They are like $13 or so if my memory serves me.

I'll try addressing the problems I see though (note: all my recommendations will be based on an aquarite cell as that is what I have. I am not familiar with Mineral Springs systems, but I am hoping the water chemistry requirements will be close though as I have read they are by the same company or something...regardless, you should seek the guidance of your owner's manual and disregard any information I type here that is in contradiction.

Sat index of 1 is WAY off, I believe you should have something in the range of -0.2 to 0.2 (with 0 being best). This is a derived value, getting the rest of your pool chemistry in line will bring this into line as well.

CYA is low range is 60-80, and you should shoot for the high side.

Free chlorine (obviously low, use bleach to get it to where it needs to be 1.0 - 3.0 before trying the SWG).

pH is very high, knock it down using muriatic acid to 7.2 - 7.6

no reference to demand drops in the aquarite manual.

Total Alkalinity is high, should read 80 - 120

Calcium Hardness 200-400 your reading is a little low.

no reference to "minerals" in the aquarite manual.

Salt level should be 2700 to 3400 ppm

Hopefully someone more knowledgable will chime in soon and support or refute my guidance, regardless, I hope this helps at least a little.


Regards,

Mark

[waterbear]

The Mineral Springs system is manufactured by Goldline controls for Bioguard. First thing, you DON'T NEED Beginnings and Renewal. They will just waste your money and give you no control over your water.

Use plain solar, water softener, or pool salt that is at least 99.5% pure.
Beautye350 is right on the money for balancing the water first and his numbers are where you want to be.
Get the numbers in these ranges and don't worry about the saturation index. It will be fine if you keep within these parameters he posted.
Balance the water by adjusting the pH with muriatic acid to lower, borax if you need to raise it (doubtful with a SWG), raise alkalinity with baking soda, lower it by following the instructions in this thread
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=191
adjust your calcium hardness by adding calcium chloride (Dowflake de-icer is what Dow recommends for pool/spa use on their website and it is MUCH cheaper than buying calcium chloride from the pool store!)
and get your CYA levels in the right range.
If you ever need to shock your pool use bleach. The superchorinate setting on the SWG will just shorten the life of your cell.

First order of business is to get a test kit so you can test yourself and then get some bleach and CYA in there until things are working right then assuming the pool store numbers are correct then get your alkalinity in the proper range by lowering it. Once the Alk is in range adjust your ph and then once that is in range adjust the calcium level.

Acid Demand is a useless test that is supposed to tell you how much acid needs to be added in one shot to adjust pH. Best way to adjust pH is in small increments, especially with acid!

The "minerals" reading is exactly the same as a "salt" reading. I have a Goldline Aqualogic PS-8 and I can set my unit to display either "minerals" or "salt". I called Goldline tech support to ask what the difference is. They told me it was the word that shows up on the display in case I was using the Mineral Springs system! It really is just for those foolish enought to buy into Bioguard's hype to make them think that the salt mix they are putting in is something special. So when you read 'minerals' think 'salt'

As far as the 'check cell' light....that could be several things
First, make sure that the cell is plugged into the control panel and also make sure the flow switch is connected and working.
It can also come on if the salt levels are too low or too high.
It might be from your very high pH.....get it down to 7.2 or 7.4 with muriatic acid.
Basically the light comes on when the cell is not working properly for some reason.
I am not sure about the "minerals' light but my unit does have a 'salt' display for when the salt levels are too high or low. The Aquarite unit has a 'check salt' light to indicate a low salt condition and a 'high salt' light to indicate a high salt conditon. If your 'minerals light is indicating a low salt condition and you know your salt level is ok then either the cell is scaled and needs cleaning or it is dying and needs to be replaced. If it is indicating a high salt condition and you know your salt levels are ok then you might want to check the Total Dissolved Solids (TDS).(see below)
How old is the system? The cell could have scale deposits and could need cleaning in acid or it might be worn out and needs to be replaced. Your unit might not have a self cleaning cell (the older ones didn't, I believe) and the cell does need to be cleaned by soaking in acid and water about every 3 monthsif that is the case. If you go to the Goldline website www.goldlinecontrols.com and look at the info for the Aquarite it is basically the same as your unit except the cell is self cleaning.

I noticed that you stated that the system is reading much lower than the tested salt level and that if the tests are right then your salt level is somewhere in the range of 3800 ppm or possibly higher. The Goldline units WILL cut off with high salt levels (mine cuts off at about 4100 ppm and if the actual TDS in your pool is high (that would be the TDS reading minus the salt level) this could push the unit over the limit. There also seems to be a calibration problem with your unit since it is reading much lower than your tested salt levels. Not sure what to tell you about this other than the cell might need cleaning or is about to die. (they have a lifespan rated in hours of use)

Now, in a nutshell....
keep the generator off until you balance the water and use bleach to chlorinate while you do. you want at least about a 6ppm FC with your CYA at the suggested levels when using bleach. Once you get the water balanced THEN try to get the generator going.
You are going to need your own test kit. Don't depend on the pool store! I would strongly suggest the one sold on the sister website www.poolsolutions.com You want the PS234s which has the salt test option. You will NOT find a better 'bang for your buck" than this kit. check out this thread for a comparison of Ben's kit and Taylor's pricewise.
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=151

I suspect that once the pH is in normal range and you get your salt levels in the recommended range and the water balalnced things will start working properly. It might be helpful to get a TDS test done and subtract the salt reading from it. This will give you your true TDS. The only reason I say this is because TDS will increase the conductivity of the water ( as will the salt) and if the level is very high (I would be wary of anything over about 1500ppm) it can cause the cell to shut down just like in a high salt situation because of the combination of your salt level and your TDS. The unit will just see this as a high salt condition.

I know that I have crammed a lot of info in here and I hope I haven't confused you. Just read through it slowly and take it all in along with the other good info that has been posted in this thread and you will be a SWG expert in no time!

[kevinm]

Thanks everyone for all of the replies. Well, the ph is now 7.4 and the cl is around 5. I'll take a water sample in tomorrow to test the rest.

I added another 80lbs of salt, and the salt reading only went up 100ppm to 1800ppm.

I cleaned the cell with diluted muriatic acid. And it still reads 1800 and will not function. I suspect that the cell is bad. Any other ideas? Where is a good place to get a replacement cell?

Thanks,
Kevin

[waterbear]

You stated initially that the pool store tested your salt level at 3000 ppm and you have added more salt. Forget about the reading on the control panel. That is measuring conductivity inside the cell and if something is bad it won't be accurate. The unit will shut the cell off when the salt level gets much above 4000 ppm. Get your water tested and please post a complete set of numbers. If the check cell light is coming on then your salt levels might very well be too high even though the display is reading low! Yes, you probably do need a new cell from what you have said or you have not gotten all the scale off of your cell and further cleaning might help. How does the cell look on visual inspection. Is there any visible scale? If you can see it clean it again.

Hope this helps.

[kevinm]

Well, the morning test results are in.

Sat Idx: .1
TDS: 5000
CYA: 74
Tot Chlorine: 5
Free Chlorine: 5
PH: 7.7
Demand drops: 1
Tot Alk: 125
Adj Alk: 103
Hardness: 165
Salt: 4200
Borates: 30

So, it looks like my fears were right and the cell is bad - and I've over added salt - do you think this is too high or can I live with this?

No visible scale on the cell, I let it soak in the diluted acid for over 20 minutes. I'm surprised it is bad already, according to the documentation this is the beginning of the fourth season, and the first was a very short one - so usage wise this would be the beginning of the third.

I've ordered a new cell, should have by mid next week.

Anything else you think I should do?

[waterbear]

Well, the morning test results are in.

Sat Idx: .1
Actually pretty good but your Calcium is low for a gunite pool so that will change once you adust it. Don't lose any sleep over the Saturation Index. Not really that valid.
check out this thread and pay close attention to the last post by Ben (PoolDoc)!
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...turation+index
TDS: 5000
TDS-Salt =800...not a problem! Not that important. Don't lose sleep over it unless it is through the roof. It is simply a measure of everything (salt, calcium, bicarbonate, borax, etc. ) dissolved in the water.
CYA: 74
perfect for a SWG!
Tot Chlorine: 5
Excellent!
Free Chlorine: 5
Excellent for using bleach! Until you get the generator working you might want to keep this bwteen 5-10 ppm. Once it is working it will most likely be ok at about 3 ppm. See this thread for FC levels and shock levels for bleach. I run my SWG with 80 pm CYA and 3 ppm FC and have NEVER needed to shock since the SWG was put into use.
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365
PH: 7.7
Bring this down a bit with some acid. Shoot for 7.2-7.4 SWG's create sodium hydroxide as a byproduct of generating chlorine so your pH will alway be on the rise. Check it AT LEAST weekly (along with your FC levels)
Demand drops: 1
Disreguard. This is a test that the pool store uses to determine how much acid you need to get your pH in range. pH changes should be made slowly. Add a cup or 2 of acid and wait a few hours and test your pH. You will soon learn how much acid YOUR pool needs!
Tot Alk: 125
Adj Alk: 103
within range!
Hardness: 165
You need some calcium in your pool to protect the finish. You can get calcium chloride at the pool store, walmart, home depot, etc. or you can buy a bag of Dowflake de-icer for a lot less and that is what Dow recommends on their website for pool/spa use and it costs a LOT less! Download mwsmith2's BleachCalc if you haven't already done so. It will help you determine how much of everything you need to add. It even had a salt calc!
http://www.hal-pc.org/~mwsmith2/BleachCalc262.exe
Salt: 4200
This is high. It might even be high enough to shut off the salt cell. The only way to lower it is to drain some water and refill. Try draining a foot or so at a time and then retesting. You want to keep it at about 3500 ppm max with your unit. On the high side is better than on the low side becuase when the salt levels are low it makes the cell work harder and shortens its life!
Borates: 30
Not a reading to worry about or even test for but actually it's perfect
for those that test. 30-50 ppm is considered ideal for algae control...whether it actually works at controlling algae is open to discussion.)
So, it looks like my fears were right and the cell is bad - and I've over added salt - do you think this is too high or can I live with this?
You probably need to lower it some and then you might need to rebalance the water a bit afterward to get you numbers back into the proper range. concentrate on getting the salt in the proper range first, however.
No visible scale on the cell, I let it soak in the diluted acid for over 20 minutes. I'm surprised it is bad already, according to the documentation this is the beginning of the fourth season, and the first was a very short one - so usage wise this would be the beginning of the third.
Cell life is rated in hours of use. If the salt level was kept on the low side or was too low for extended periods, the cell was used for shocking the pool (a BIG drain on it's life!), or the pump run time was short and the cell's output turned up to compensate these factors could be reasons contributing to short cell life. Also if the cell was not cleaned regularly and you don't have a self cleaning cell this could contribute to short cell life also. The estimated life of the cell is 5-7 years according to Goldline controls. Realize that this is a manufacturer's claim and your milage will vary.
I've ordered a new cell, should have by mid next week.

Anything else you think I should do?

Yes, get a GOOD drop based test kit and do your own testing! I would highly recommend the PS234s with the salt option that is sold in the sister website www.poolsolutions.com. You won't find a better kit for the money that will test for everything that you need! in the meantime you can get a cheap 5 way kit from walmart (about $15) but be aware that it will only test Total chlorine and not free chlorine, the pH indicator does not work properly when your chlorine levels are high, and the calcium hardness test has some problems and might not be trustworthy! You can order good test kits from Taylor Technologies but to get everything in Ben's kit you will need 3 different kits, spend a lot more money, and not be able to do as many tests before you need to reorder reagents (CYA is only enough for about 5 tests, for example!)
Hope this is helpful!

[kevinm]

Very helpful, thank you again. I looked for calcium chloride tonight but couldn't find any (tried 3 stores). I may have to go to the pool store for some.

Thanks again,
Kevin

[waterbear]

Very helpful, thank you again. I looked for calcium chloride tonight but couldn't find any (tried 3 stores). I may have to go to the pool store for some.

Thanks again,
Kevin

Buy a bag during winter when they put the de-icers out! When you go to walmart, kmart, home depot, etc. Look in the pool dept for calcium increaser...usually cheaper than the pool store. Same stuff as Dowflake. I wouldnt be surprised if the pool chemical brands were just repackaged Dowflake since they are one of the larger manufacturer's of calcium chloride!