Salvation Army Pool eye irritation

[SalvationArmy]

Pool water tests fine, but causes more than the normal degree of eye irritation, and also really dries my skin. Any ideas why?

[Watermom]

Hello and welcome to the forum! We'll need more information to be able to help. What type of pool, and volume, type of filter, size of pump and a current set of water testing results taken with a drops-based kit. Also, tell us exactly what all you have put in the pool meaning ingredients, not just "shock." Then somebody here can try and help.

[SalvationArmy]

Thanks Mom. 100k gallon pool, plaster, indoor, heated to 86-88 deg year-round, remodeled about 1 year ago, liquid chlorine (no salt), sand filters, pH 7.2-7.6, TA 100, Calcium 250, FC 2-5 ppm, old test kit with a Taylor K-2006 on the way. My old kit does not detect any combined chlorine, but I do not trust it. I have searched the forums some and noticed that a low TDS = osmotic pressure on the eye. I guess that my TDS is probably low since the water was new about a year ago. Can I just add salt to a chlorine pool without changing anything else? Thanks again,
Mike

[Watermom]

Mike,
Big pool such as this and especially since it is an indoor pool are a little different than residential pools. I'm going to ask Ben to take a look at your thread and get his take on things. Sit tight for now.

[PoolDoc]

Hi Mike;

As Janet said, indoor pools are different than outdoor pools, and commercial pools are different than residential pools: indoor, commercial pools are REALLY different.

The good news is, I have some extensive experience with pools like yours. The bad news is, I have more experiential answers, than I do scientific ones. I found some things that seemed to work, but I can only guess why. If there is reliable info on what happens in a hot commercial indoor pool like yours, I haven't found it.

The problem is worse on hot pools, like yours, than on colder ones.

In general, the effects you describe are from chlorinated organics. In the potable water business, they are often called DBPs or Disinfection By-Products. You'll also seem them referred to as THMs -- Tri-Halo-Methanes, although that is a narrower term.

First, let me tell what I found does NOT work:
#1 - 'Shocking' or breakpoint chlorination.
If the organics were simple ammonia, that would work, but they are not. As a result, 'shocking' can actually make the problem worse.

#2 - Non-chlorine shocks
I found ZERO improvement, at any level of use. When I tested the, I was able to buy 'Oxone' cheaply in 50# (I think maybe they were 20Kg) bags, so I tested higher levels than recommended, as well as recommended levels. Using monopersulfate totally screws up ORP based control and DPD testing, but I found no improvement whatever in water quality.

#3 - Clarifiers
No effect, even though I was using a sand filter.

Second, there was one thing that I found absolutely and dramatically DID work: contaminant source control!
#1 - On one pool, I got a HUGE improvement by persuading the toddler-swim class teacher to shorten classes from 1 hour to 45 minutes, and require that moms put their toddlers on the potty before swimming, "whether they thought they had to go, or not". This step had the single greatest effect of anything I ever did!

#2 - Placing signs in the pool and women's locker room begging and pleading and threatening women to refrain from using lotion before entering the pool, and asking them to PLEASE wash it off, if they already had it on.

In general, you want to understand your contaminant sources:
+ USS competitive swimmers (ie, 2 hour practice swimmers) ALL pee in pools. I am NOT kidding or exaggerating about this. I absolutely do know. Anything to reduce this helps. Coaches hate it, but a mandatory hourly 'potty' break can work wonders. Of course, the coaches then have to chase all their slackers out of the bathroom after, so it becomes an ongoing effort to maintain the required break.

+ Babies and toddlers pee in pools, and babies poop in pools. Swim diapers do NOTHING to help with this. What makes a swim diaper is simply that they don't 'blow up' and clog the filter. There's nothing you can do about the babies, except keep them out of the pool. But the toddlers can be managed per above.

+ Older women in water aerobics may be the worst. (My wife was a water aerobics instructor for years, so I'm not guessing here.) They often wear too much lotion, too much perfume (it often lies in an absolutely choking layer 2" above the water*) and have leaky bladders (my wife would overhear them discussing their problems, in the locker room). A mandatory shower first policy + signs will help. With this population, they tend to be enforcers: (I had to do so, so you do too!). Explaining that THEIR discomfort results from their fellow swimmers body lotion or full bladder can work wonders, because they will say to each other what you can't.

+ Lowering water temperature will help too, because doing so reduced skin-drying effects AND sweating.

+ In general, encouraging showers helps a LOT because most people will pee when they shower, so you kills two birds with one stone, so to speak. Also, making sure NO class runs over 1 hours without a break helps.

+ But, you also need to OBSERVE your pool. There may be unexpected sources of contamination there, say a PT class that FOLLOWS a massage therapy session. In general, you are looking to reduce all of the following:
-- urine, feces, spit
-- sweat !
-- lotion, body oil, suntan lotion
-- hair conditioner
-- perfume

+ There is another class of problem contaminants I should mention, even though you indicated you did not use them:
-- algaecides
-- enzymes (see below)
-- defoamers
-- pH stabilizers (beside borax)
-- non-chlorine shocks (some can cause SEVERE problems!)
-- bromine tabs (hydantoin build up can cause serious problems, too)
-- hodge-podge pool chemicals -- use ONLY single ingredient products !!!! This is very important.


Third, there are some operational improvements that will help.

+ Improved aeration. (TO BE EXPANDED)
+ Improved ventilation (TO BE EXPANDED)
+ Lowered water temps (TO BE EXPANDED)
+ Chlorination consistency (TO BE EXPANDED)
+ Higher pH (TO BE EXPANDED)
+ Improved filtration (TO BE EXPANDED)
+ Enhanced filtration (TO BE EXPANDED => contaminant adsorption)
+ Improved operational stability (TO BE EXPANDED)
+ Regular water replacement plan (TO BE EXPANDED)


Finally, AFTER you've done everything above, it might be worthwhile to
+ test the use of enzymes (TO BE EXPANDED)
+ consider the use of UV irradiation (TO BE EXPANDED)
+ (last resort) adopt a European type ozonation / de-ozonation process with post chlorination


==> It's going to take awhile to finish this thread <==

Ben


* Funny story: one lady who frequented my wife's pool during the open swim period when my son and I (the one in this thread: Chattanooga Rat Race, minus about 18 years) apparently applied cheap perfume with lawn sprayer. Trying to swim laps, when she got in, choked me and triggered my son's asthma. But we worked out a solution. Like many of the women in her set, she did not want to get their hair wet . . . at ALL! So I'd have my son practice his butterfly stroke or do fast kick sets, every other lap. She got out, and complained to the manager -- with whom I'd already cleared my plan. (This lady was a complainer, and an irritant to other patrons as well.) The manager, struggling to keep a straight face, explained that it was an open swim period, and that the club really couldn't guarantee pool users would be able to keep their hair dry. She flounced off to the locker room in a manner possible only for overweight 65 year old women, hmphing all the way, as the staff collapsed into silent giggles.

[SalvationArmy]

Wow! What a great reply and tons of information. I do only use a handful of chemicals: NaClO, baking soda, HCL, and calcium, but I have only been employed here for about 7 months. Some time before me, there were several different people adding chemicals to the pool, and they ended up with a high CL level that was bleaching out the indicator, so they though it was 0 CL and continued to add CL. One of their water samples tested at 55ppm CL! So they added Chlor-out, and I am not sure what else...
The pool water temperature is maintained at 86-88 for the senior water aerobics classes that meet here 3 mornings/week. Most think that 86 is too cold. We also have 2 hour swim team practices every night, so I am sure that there is tons of sweating. Do you think that reducing the water temp to the low 80's would help improve the water quality much?
Thanks again for all of your advice! I will do what I can to implement the changes you recommend.

[Watermom]

As "Janet" said

Ben

Uhhh ... no. That would be "Lisa." After a decade around here, you'ld think that you would have this all figured out by now -- who is who!!

(JK!)