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Thread: Pool still cloudy white. Been a week today... This stinks.

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Pool still cloudy white. Been a week today... This stinks.

    Would have called just now, but no fone in your user profile.

    Still just sounds like massive dead floating algae, and the typical problems that result when you try to clean that up with a really typical, really poor, AG pool filter setup. In general, AG pool sand filter and pump combos are TERRIBLE at cleanup.

    There is another issue. I don't know which clarifier you used, but overdoses can make smaller particles essentially un-filterable. Add up your TOTAL clarifier use over the last week and compare it to the maximum dose on the bottle. If you are over, or close, that's probably a contributing factor.

    HOWEVER, it sounds like you ARE filtering if you use DE or the cartridge.

    If you are willing to wait another week, turn your filter on high, leave the cartridge in (get a new one if you can) and filter away. Do NOT add more clarifier. DO keep the chlorine high, to kill any remaining algae and to break down (hopefully) any excess clarifier.

    If you want a clear pool sooner, go get a new DE filter or drain and refill. In fact, with just 6200 gallons, it would be cheaper to drain and refill.

    Best wishes.

    Ben

    PS. Just had a thought -- is the sand in your filter LABELED filter sand? Some dealers have sold coarse sandblast sand as a high margin substitute. If so, you need to replace the sand you have with real filter sand. Doing so won't affect anything with the cartridge in place, but long term, it will.

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    Default Re: Pool still cloudy white. Been a week today... This stinks.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolDoc View Post

    Still just sounds like massive dead floating algae, and the typical problems that result when you try to clean that up with a really typical, really poor, AG pool filter setup. In general, AG pool sand filter and pump combos are TERRIBLE at cleanup.

    *********** I have two filters. The original was the powerflo matrix 100 sq ft cartridge. The pump is a one HP two speed. I run on lo 90% of the time. When I needed a new cartridge one yr because the cartridge clogged in hours, I opted for a sand filter I found on a list site. It was the 166T hayward. Free. What I do is use that for heavy spring clean up, then go to cartridge. But last yr I just kept the sand running all yr. This yr I started with the sand. Since it was not cleaning, I kooked the cart back up. But the cart cloggs too fast and has thin spots where I can see daylight. So I am just running sand now.

    There is another issue. I don't know which clarifier you used, but overdoses can make smaller particles essentially un-filterable. Add up your TOTAL clarifier use over the last week and compare it to the maximum dose on the bottle. If you are over, or close, that's probably a contributing factor.


    ******** Clarifier I used leslies ultra bright. 2oz, 2oz and 4 oz on three different days. Says 4 oz treats 10000 gal. I have not put any in, in a couple of days.

    HOWEVER, it sounds like you ARE filtering if you use DE or the cartridge.

    ************* I am using DE in the sand. 1/4 cup raises it 1-2 psi.

    If you are willing to wait another week, turn your filter on high, leave the cartridge in (get a new one if you can) and filter away. Do NOT add more clarifier. DO keep the chlorine high, to kill any remaining algae and to break down (hopefully) any excess clarifier.

    ********* Getting a cartridge Tuesday. Its shipped from CA. It was 49.00 on line. Pool stores has to order at $125 bucks. This is a Unicel. They say they are the same or better quality.

    If you want a clear pool sooner, go get a new DE filter or drain and refill. In fact, with just 6200 gallons, it would be cheaper to drain and refill.

    ******** Dont want to drain, but with all the backwashes and refilling, I think thats why its not as cloudy, but it is really cloudy.

    Best wishes.

    Ben

    PS. Just had a thought -- is the sand in your filter LABELED filter sand? Some dealers have sold coarse sandblast sand as a high margin substitute. If so, you need to replace the sand you have with real filter sand. Doing so won't affect anything with the cartridge in place, but long term, it will.

    ********** This is real filter sand. Its the white middle of the road stuff. The choice was sand. middle of the road sand, or zeolite. This is a white sand.

    My # should be there.
    12x18 vinyl AG 6.2K gal; Hayward equp: 16" sand filter (spring clean up) -- Xtream 100 sft cart (after clean up) -- Power Flo Matrix 1hp 2spd pump w/ AO Smith motor

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    Default Re: Pool still cloudy white. Been a week today... This stinks.

    Sounds like you just need some patience, then. I'd offer to loan you some of mine, but I'm fresh out! ;-)

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    Default Re: Pool still cloudy white. Been a week today... This stinks.

    Hi all!!!

    Just a update. New cartridge and pool still cloudy.

    Pressure does not seem to build up in cartridge. Started with new cart at 14 psi. Ran on high all day and low at night. Woke up and put on hi. Should of built pressure if it was catching stuff correct? Pressure actually went down...12 psi??? Does not make sense.

    Well I have sand filter hooked up after cart.

    What I do is remove cart. Backwash sand, add de to sand to get pressure up 1 psi. Let run 15 min then install cart. I have two filters going.

    I have patience but this is getting out of hand.

    I do not want to drain, and especially dont want to add flock.

    Any other suggestions???
    12x18 vinyl AG 6.2K gal; Hayward equp: 16" sand filter (spring clean up) -- Xtream 100 sft cart (after clean up) -- Power Flo Matrix 1hp 2spd pump w/ AO Smith motor

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Pool still cloudy white. Been a week today... This stinks.

    Lawrosa;

    If I understand correctly, this is your situation:

    #1 - You have a sand filter with fresh genuine filter sand, and a pressure gauge.
    #2 - After the sand filter, you have a cartridge filter (ie., in series with the sand filter)
    This filter ALSO has a pressure gauge.
    #3 - You've been adding DE to the skimmer, so it ends up on the sand filter.
    #4 - The pressure gauge on the on the CARTRIDGE filter has been dropping after a 12 hour run.
    #5 - You didn't mention the pressure before / after on the sand filter, EXCEPT that you add enough DE to cause it to increase by 1#

    Here's what I think is happening.

    Once you add the DE, the pressure on the sand filter goes up at once. Because your sand filter IS working, the DE stops there, and does not reach the cartridge filter. However, you notice the pressure on cartridge filter DECREASES overnight. What you probably did not notice was that the pressure on the SAND filter increased over that same interval. This reduced flow to the cartridge filter, which would -- absent other effects -- reduce pressure.

    What this indicates is that the sand filter PLUS the DE is filtering everything there is to filter. IF you add the DE to the sand filter, there's no need for the cartridge filter. But a DE coated sand filter is a *TINY*, very low dirt capacity DE filter. You might be better off to EITHER remove the cartridge OR not add DE. Without DE, the sand filter will get the big stuff, and the cartridge will get smaller stuff.

    All that said, I'm not sure why your pool is not cleaning up. But, I've seen this problem before, locally, didn't understand it then, either and have noted that it has been associated with use of goop, like clarifiers. But let me be 'perfectly' clear: I do NOT know that the clarifier is the problem; I don't know WHAT the problem is.

    What I can tell you is that I have ALWAYS been able to clean up pools quickly, once the algae was dead, with either sand filters or DE filters as long as they were in good condition. However, I don't use (or haven't for the last 20 years) use goop. Quickly, in this situation, equals 2 - 5 days.

    One of the problems with polymers, algaecides and so on is that you end up with an electrical mishmash. It's possible to combine anionic and cationic and non-ionic polymers in such a way that you can't filter anything. But, because the chem companies don't want to talk about risks OR about the details of their "proprietary" products, this can happen without warning. Also, there are several ways to precipitate colloidal (= very fine, non-filterable) particles. The HEDP metal & stain products are particularly risky this way.

    Have you done this, in your pool? Dunno.
    If you just keep filtering, how long will it take to clear? Dunno.
    Is there anything you can do to speed it up? Short of setting up an inground pump with an inground DE filter on a separate loop, probably not.
    Should you drain? Dunno.

    I can tell you what I'd probably do, if I was taking care of the pool, but I'm uncertain enough that I'm ONLY offering this as an example, not a recommendation. Anyhow:

    #1 - Backwash the sand filter and do NOT add DE.
    #2 - Clean the cartridge.
    #3 - Put both in service.
    #4 - Run the pump on high for 48 hours, while maintaining chlorine levels.
    #5 - Add NOTHING else, except chlorine.
    #6 - If there's no visible improvement after 2 days, drain (as much as you can safely) and refill.

    Sorry I couldn't help more


    Ben

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    Default Re: Pool still cloudy white. Been a week today... This stinks.

    Thanks Ben. I will just add to your questions. Its almost as you describe but I have the cart first. But I add de with the cart out, then put it in. I dont want to mess up a new cart. Went in today. I could barley see my feet. Went in and brushed, and walked around with the skimmer, kicking up the bottom. Got 3 leaves and one stick. There is nothing else in there. Just cloudy. I have a pic I need to post a link

    Also I only got the new cart yesterday. I really been using sand. Its been 2 weeks and 1 day since swamp.



    Quote Originally Posted by PoolDoc View Post
    Lawrosa;

    If I understand correctly, this is your situation:

    #1 - You have a sand filter with fresh genuine filter sand, and a pressure gauge.

    Yes last yr when I picked it up from the list site. New sand and laterals. New spider gasket.
    #2 - After the sand filter, you have a cartridge filter (ie., in series with the sand filter)
    This filter ALSO has a pressure gauge.

    They both have gauges. Its the cart, then the sand, The cart has a direct union pump to cart. Cant get inbetween it with out major repipe.

    #3 - You've been adding DE to the skimmer, so it ends up on the sand filter.

    I have been adding de with cart out. Then reinstall cart.


    #4 - The pressure gauge on the on the CARTRIDGE filter has been dropping after a 12 hour run.

    Ran Only cart last night. Starts at 14 psi. Ran on low speed. starts 4 psi. Woke up this morning and put on high. Figure it should be above 14 psi. Was like 12 1/2. Dont know why. Hooked sand back inline and am doing as above.
    #5 - You didn't mention the pressure before / after on the sand filter, EXCEPT that you add enough DE to cause it to increase by 1#
    Sand starts at 12psi. add de goes to 13-14 psi. Gets good pressure after 12 hours. 18 psi or so, but then just stops and will not rise anymore. I figure its channeling so I backwash and repeat.

    Here's what I think is happening.

    Once you add the DE, the pressure on the sand filter goes up at once. Because your sand filter IS working, the DE stops there, and does not reach the cartridge filter. However, you notice the pressure on cartridge filter DECREASES overnight. What you probably did not notice was that the pressure on the SAND filter increased over that same interval. This reduced flow to the cartridge filter, which would -- absent other effects -- reduce pressure.

    Yes this is what is happening. But this way. As the sand filter builds up pressure the cart does also because its trying to push through clogged up sand. The cart alone by itself was the one thatdropped pressure which is odd. Because when I first install yesterday I noted 14 psi start pressure hi, 4 psi lo. The next day when I went from lo to high the pressure was lower. I have no clue whats happening there.

    What this indicates is that the sand filter PLUS the DE is filtering everything there is to filter. IF you add the DE to the sand filter, there's no need for the cartridge filter. But a DE coated sand filter is a *TINY*, very low dirt capacity DE filter. You might be better off to EITHER remove the cartridge OR not add DE. Without DE, the sand filter will get the big stuff, and the cartridge will get smaller stuff.

    I dont think they are getting anything. Although it would seem the sand with DE is doing something. Without de in the sand filter it will sit at 12 psi all day........

    All that said, I'm not sure why your pool is not cleaning up. But, I've seen this problem before, locally, didn't understand it then, either and have noted that it has been associated with use of goop, like clarifiers. But let me be 'perfectly' clear: I do NOT know that the clarifier is the problem; I don't know WHAT the problem is.

    Have never added anything to my pool from day one but BBB. When I bought the pool I found your site back in 2005. They gave me a box with the pool of something that does it all. It was a powder. They said its adjusts everything automatically. Threw it in the garbage.

    What I can tell you is that I have ALWAYS been able to clean up pools quickly, once the algae was dead, with either sand filters or DE filters as long as they were in good condition. However, I don't use (or haven't for the last 20 years) use goop. Quickly, in this situation, equals 2 - 5 days.

    Its been two weeks and one day today.

    One of the problems with polymers, algaecides and so on is that you end up with an electrical mishmash. It's possible to combine anionic and cationic and non-ionic polymers in such a way that you can't filter anything. But, because the chem companies don't want to talk about risks OR about the details of their "proprietary" products, this can happen without warning. Also, there are several ways to precipitate colloidal (= very fine, non-filterable) particles. The HEDP metal & stain products are particularly risky this way.

    Have you done this, in your pool? Dunno.

    I used clarifier, the blue stuff not a floc, one yr when I had a cloudy pool. Cleared overnight. So I thought it would work here. I added this in oz on 4 different days. 2oz-2oz-4oz-4oz. I am not adding anymore. The bottle says 4 oz trats 10,000 gal. I am 12x18 oval 4.5' deep.

    If you just keep filtering, how long will it take to clear? Dunno.

    Im' a filterin'

    Is there anything you can do to speed it up? Short of setting up an inground pump with an inground DE filter on a separate loop, probably not.
    Should you drain? Dunno.

    My pump on high with cart stats 80 gpm. 6200 gals should turn around in less the 2 hrs. The stuff seems too fine for filtering.

    I can tell you what I'd probably do, if I was taking care of the pool, but I'm uncertain enough that I'm ONLY offering this as an example, not a recommendation. Anyhow:

    #1 - Backwash the sand filter and do NOT add DE.
    #2 - Clean the cartridge.
    #3 - Put both in service.
    #4 - Run the pump on high for 48 hours, while maintaining chlorine levels.
    #5 - Add NOTHING else, except chlorine.
    #6 - If there's no visible improvement after 2 days, drain (as much as you can safely) and refill.

    If there is no improvment I am going to visit you so we can swim in your pool. Me, the wife and 3 kids. Now my youngest is still in diapers. I will put the swimmies on him but I hope he dont have an accident in your pool...LOL. My 10 yr old might add some yellow water to your pool though...LOL.

    Sorry I couldn't help more

    Thats OK. I have alot of patience. Its the kids. They want to know why everyone else is swimming in thier pools and we are not. My 10 yr old is even questioning what I am putting in the pool. He sees the other kids father using floats with pucks, and he wants to know why I am using bleach. He says its my fault. Uggg!!! My kids think Im a failure.....LOL

    Ben
    12x18 vinyl AG 6.2K gal; Hayward equp: 16" sand filter (spring clean up) -- Xtream 100 sft cart (after clean up) -- Power Flo Matrix 1hp 2spd pump w/ AO Smith motor

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    Default Re: Pool still cloudy white. Been a week today... This stinks.

    The only thing I see in terms of tests is that your FC is 2. With 6000 gallons, one gallon of 6% bleach should raise your FC by 9.5. With a CYA of 30, you need an FC of 15, constantly maintained. That means about 6 quarts of 6% bleach to get you to 15ppm, then 1 quart for every 1.5 ppm below 15ppm, and checking 3x/day.

    I haven't seen that you are doing that unless I'm missing something. Once you've done THAT until your FC level holds the clearing should be possible. But if you water isn't blue, you have algae. If your water is blue, just cloudy, it's just stuff that has to be filtered out.

    I don't understand your dual filter system. Ben does, but I don't. I would suggest just using the sand filter and cutting out the cart for now. KISS. Meanwhile, another user who is having TERRIBLE metal problems (you don't seem to have that) is using a secondary jury-rigged filter using a sump pump to force water through a five-gallon covered bucket filled with batting and other material to catch any particles. It's pulling a lot of metal out of that pool. I do not know if it will work for YOU, but if you have a sump pump, some hoses and a 5 gal bucket with a tight lid (that Home Depot sells for $3 or $4), you could try it.

    Carl

    Chlorine is chlorine, whether it comes in bleach bottles or tri-chlor pucks. Sorry if your kids don't "get" that.
    Carl

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    Default Re: Pool still cloudy white. Been a week today... This stinks.

    Pics. Thanks Carl. I know everyone has been probably brushing over this post to help others in more need. Or just assume I know what to do, and have patience. I am trying.

    My test goes as high as 5ppm. I been diluting to get close results. I have been shocking everyday. The chlorine holds from the night before somewhat. It got down to a TC 1 ppm with a 1 CC. Its getting dark here so I threw 2 1/2 three quart bottles of 6%.

    Possibly I am yo yo' ing????

    http://s1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee391/lawrosa/pool/
    12x18 vinyl AG 6.2K gal; Hayward equp: 16" sand filter (spring clean up) -- Xtream 100 sft cart (after clean up) -- Power Flo Matrix 1hp 2spd pump w/ AO Smith motor

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Pool still cloudy white. Been a week today... This stinks.

    If your TC is dropping from 5 to 1 overnight, then you are fighting algae and you need to keep it at 15. You can dilute but I think Ben also says if OTO color goes to deep orange it's close to ten and if it goes to brown it's around 15 (without dilution). Ben can correct me.

    In the pictures it looks pretty blue, but that's not reliable. The TC dropping is more indicative of algae.

    Looking at your sand filter and your cart, either should EASILY be adequate for your pool and both is over-kill. Plus, you are filtering FIRST with the cart, not the sand. I can see that from the pump, and the way the lines go to the sand filter. So I'm guessing when you put the DE in the skimmer, it clogged the cart. When you pull out the cartridge element and close it up, you should just be using the sand filter.

    Again, I'm guessing that you ARE yo-yo-ing because you are not keeping the chlorine at shock level.

    Carl
    Carl

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    Default Re: Pool still cloudy white. Been a week today... This stinks.

    Carl I added some pics from at night with the pool light on.

    I take the cart out when I add DE. Dont want to clogg that its a new cart.

    I have been trying to keep the chlorine at 13 I thought from the best guess chart.

    What I mean with the chlorine holding is I shock to say 13-15. Then the next morning the dpd test is blood red. I know its still high. I dilute the test 1/3 pool to 2/3 water. (RO water. Im on a well) Its still at least as high as it was the night before, but I cant test CC until it comes down to under 5 ppm. Today it was a cc 1

    I have a taylor deluxe dpd kit from leslies. I have a oto just for having it.

    The pool is blue but cloudy.

    I though the carts filter to 10 micron and the sand 30 micron?

    The problem is the cart is rated for 80 gpm. My pump is two speed 1 hp. The sand is a hayward 166t and rated for 25 gpm. I put it after the cart to reduce the flow.

    Ugggggggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!
    12x18 vinyl AG 6.2K gal; Hayward equp: 16" sand filter (spring clean up) -- Xtream 100 sft cart (after clean up) -- Power Flo Matrix 1hp 2spd pump w/ AO Smith motor

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