Pool help, cloudy mess, no experience.

[daddyjmo]

I found this forum a few days ago and have already spent several hours reading as much as possible. I've read so much that I'm afraid Ive gone into a bit of information overload! We recently moved into our home and pool ownership is foreign to me, however, I'm willing to learn whatever it takes. Pool has always been green. We moved in end of last summer and tried for a bit to correct it, pool store style, and failed. This season I'd like to get it up and running. Best estimate is that it is 18,000-19,000 gallons. I have a new filter cartridge and a new Polaris working full time. I've gotten as many leaves out with a net that I can find (but I can't see the bottom to know for sure, so Polaris hopefully has my back there).

I started to try and implement the BBB method and am currently on day 3. Im going to count today as day one however because of a few mistakes I've already made:

- I don't have a tester kit. Big no-no I know, but I wanted to get started instead of waiting for one to be shipped. I will have one in the next few days. Looked for a cheapy one at Walmart but they didn't have one. I have a leslies 2 minutes from my house, but from what I've read I shouldn't buy their $60 kit, right?

- I now know that the bleach I was adding the first two days was not enough to bring it to shock level.

This morning was the first time that I had a real test done, and it was at leslies. Here is the readout I got there, I'm working on learning the acronyms:

FC - 5.0
TC - 6.0
pH - 7.2
TA - 100
CH - 330
CYA - 30

Since the test I added some more stabilizer (cya) and 6 gallons of bleach. I'm going to get it retested this evening to see if it is finally holding in the shock range on that chlorine estimate chart.

The pool isn't green anymore but it is really cloudy. Really, really cloudy... The color is a slightly blue but mostly light grey color. The Leslies lady said she had not seen a sample this cloudy before. Her recommendations were a $30 dose of fresh 'n clear followed by a $30 dose of pool first aid, I didn't buy either one.

Now, some kinks I have. I have the Polaris running constantly and empty it once or twice a day. I currently am running the pump with no filter in it just to keep the chemicals moving. One of my problems is that with the filter in, I am having to stop and clean it at least every 20-30 minutes because that is how quickly it reaches that magical 10 psi above it's starting psi. Is that normal? Should I put the filter back in and just deal with having to clean it so much? If so, what do I do about night or when I have to do leave and do something besides look at the pool all day? My other concern is with cleaning the filter so much, am I washing away all the bleach and stabilizer that I've put in?

Last little bit before I finish this epic tale... What should I be doing during this shock period? I'll keep getting tests done. Do I brush the sides and bottom? How often? Do I keep the Polaris going? Do I keep the pump on 24/7 or do I let it rest sometimes? Filter in always or sometimes?

A huge thank you in advance for your help!!!!

Jake

[aylad]

Hi, Jake, and welcome to the forum!!

Sounds like you've been doing your homework, and that's a great thing...I know it all seems pretty overwhelming at first, but after you've been at it for awhile, it will become second nature for you.

First things first: How did you add the stabilizer? If you added it through a sock hanging in the return, I would take it out until you get the pool cleared up. CYA of 30 ppm is actually ideal for most situations, and the only way to remove it from the water once you've added it is drain/refill. If you added it by broadcasting, let the vacuum pick it up and get it out for you. If you added it through the skimmer and then cleaned the cartridge, then it's already gone, and that's a good thing.

Second: With a CYA of 30, the chlorine level you need to attain and hold to kill the algae is 15 ppm. You want to get it up to 15 ppm and hold it there as consistently as possible by testing and re-adding chlorine as often as you can. In a 19K gallon pool, each 1 1/2 quarts of 6% bleach will raise your chlorine by 1 ppm. 3 gallons + 1 quart will raise your chlorine by 10 ppm to get up to the 15. So raise it, then add whatever amount is necessary to get it back up to the 15 as consistently as you can. The more consistent you are about maintaining that shock level, the quicker the algae will die off. You need to keep the chlorine at that 15 ppm level until the pool is clear, the difference between your FC and TC readings is 0, and more importantly, when you can measure chlorine at sundown and again at sunup and the chlorine numbers are the same. You can do this with a cheaper kit, using the dilution method that I can give you a link for, but the best kit we recommend for this job is found online at http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002IXIIG?...NB76D96DJNGM5&. This kit is everything you'll need to keep the pool pristine. You can get it elsewhere online, but this is the best price we've found for it so far, and if you order it from this link, then PoolForum will get a donation from the purchase.

You need to be brushing the pool daily, and run the pump with the filter on, as close to 24/7 as possible. The chlorine will kill off the algae, but it will not remove it from the water. That's what the cloudiness is. Removing the dead algae is the filter's job, and the fact that your pressure rises as quickly as it does is just evidence that it is doing what it's supposed to do. Unfortunately, clearing up algae blooms is a PITA with a cartridge filter, but that's just how it is. Clean the filter as the pressure indicates, and it will clear. Running the pump without a cartridge will recirculate the chlorine, but will not do anything to help remove the dead algae that's causing your cloudiness.

If the Polaris isn't picking up much of anything, then I'd give it a rest for now, but if it's still bringing up leaves, sticks, etc. then let it run, if you can do it safely--the more of the debris that you can get out, the less work there is for the chlorine to do. You might do a more efficient job, though, if you just scoop what you can off the bottom iwith your pole and net. My fear for the Polaris is it trying to pick up something too big or at a wrong angle and damaging the unit, if you can't see what it's running over.

You did yourself a huge favor by not buying the floc and clarifyer that the pool store wanted you to buy--they are not necessary, will not speed up the process, and will frequently create more problems than you already have.

It sounds like you are well on your way to a clean, clear pool--what you're going to need now, besides lots of bleach, is a huge dose of POPP--pool owner patience and persistence. It won't happen overnight, but it WILL happen if you stick with it.

Feel free to repost with any questions you have, current readings, or progress!! BTW, what kind of pool do you have--liner, gunite, plaster, etc.?

Janet

[Watermom]

Jan's advice is right on. If you follow it, you're going to have a clear pool in no time. I second her suggestion to buy that good test kit called a Taylor K-2006. You will be glad you did.

Welcome to the forum!

[daddyjmo]

I'm back with updates.... first I want to thank Janet and watermom for your help. I really appreciate it. I'm still working away at the pool but I have hit a few snags along the way.

I wanted to be able to post new sample readings for you guys but my local pool store (leslies) has decided to stop providing me with "free" water testing. Apparently the test they use only measures free chlorine up to 10ppm. They told me that since my reading was always seemingly at or above this level that it was pointless for them to keep testing. They did however offer to sell me some chlorine destabilizer (no worries, I didn't buy). They really didn't understand why I was purposely trying to keep my chlorine levels so high. I asked if they could just test the rest of the variables for me (pH, TA, CYA, etc) and they refused that too. Their reasoning there was that the high chlorine would distort the other readings and make them all inaccurate and useless.

Any ideas there? I had never heard anywhere before about the other tests being wrong with high chlorine levels... Is this just more pool store fairy tails?

So I officially have no way of knowing what my levels really are. I have some strips, which I know are useless but I'm basically making sure I put enough chlorine in to keep the FC color as dark red/purple as possible. I've looked a few other places for the cheapo test kits but haven't had any luck. I have ordered the Taylor K-2006 kit several days ago but it might be Monday or Tuesday before it comes :-(

I'm pretty sure that I've gotten all of the leaves and gunk up from the bottom of the pool using a combo of pole/net and the Polaris. It is still just as cloudy but my head tells me that the color may be improving (it looks less greenish/blueish/whitish/brownish and more whitish/blueish... But maybe that's just my hope blinding me from the truth).

New chemical question for you. I live in Florida, which I've just learned is important because it's one of the few places left that allows the purchase of liquid chlorine... I don't understand the chemistry and the math though... Is it usually cheaper to buy that as compared to bleach? The bleach I buy is 6% chlorine and the store sells 10%. if total volume cost less for the pool store liquid chlorine then I should be buying that instead of bleach correct? What about the powder? They say it's better cause it's 50-60% chlorine... But I've read that the powder applies only to 1,000ppm vs the liquid which applies to 10,000ppm... That's where I'm lost with the math and chemistry. What should I be buying? I understand it's called the BBB method, but perhaps that was coined in a state where you can't buy liquid chlorine? I just need some help understanding.

Thank you again!!

[aylad]

Man, I HATE it when I have almost the whole response typed out, then hit the wrong button and it all goes away!!!

Okay, here goes again...shorter version this time...

First, don't buy any "destabilizer", don't know what that is, but I do know that you don't need it. Second, high chlorine levels can cause falsely high pH results, but your beginning pH was fine, so we know it's okay unless you've added a bunch of acid. The other numbers were okay too, and shouldn't change much as a result of what you're doing, so let's concentrate on clearing up the pool and then you can tweak the other numbers later.

If Leslie's or WalMart has one of the cheapie drop-based kits that tests chlorine (even up to only 3 or 5 ppm), I can tell you how to dilute your sample so that you have a ballpark idea of your chlorine level until your good test kit comes in. Alternately, you can continue to use the test strips and just keep it as purple as you can--neither way is exact, but they'll both work until you get a good kit. Just a suggestion....it might help if you take a picture of the pool every day in the same sunlight, i.e. the same time of day, and look at them side by side. That will help you see that you really are making progress, even if it's slow!

About the liquid chlorine/bleach question.....

Basically, liquid chlorine is the same as bleach, just in a stronger concentration. It's the same chemical, but the bleach is typically either 5.25 or 6%, vs. the 10% in liquid chlorine form. However, we know that the higher concentrations are not as stable and tend to lose strength faster than lower concentrations. So the liquid may have been 10% or more when it got to the store, but if the store doesn't have a quick turnaround or stores it in a warm place, then it actually may be degraded by a good bit. So...whether it's better to buy liquid chlorine or not depends on the actual concentration and whether or not you have the ability to store and handle larger quantities of the chlorine. I'll do a search around the forum and see if I can link you to the post where CarlD, another mod, talks about measuring the actual strength from a sample. If it truly is 10%, though, and you can handle the quantity, then it's much cheaper usually to buy liquid chlorine over bleach. (I can't, unfortunately Louisiana isn't one of the states that can handle it). Regarding the powdered stuff, I would stay away from powder in your shoes. The reason is this: powdered chlorine is either dichlor (which breaks down into chlorine, water, and stabilizer--your stabilizer is already high enough and your pH is low enough that you don't need to use this) or calcium hypochlorite( which breaks down into chlorine and calcium) . Your calcium levels are already fairly high, and you would add more and possibly create milky water conditions if you used cal hypo for this job. This is why I need to know what kind of pool you have--vinyl liner, plaster, gunite, etc. so that I can better advise you when it's okay to use anything but bleach. So...you need to stick with either liquid chlorine or bleach for now (they break down into chlorine and salt water, no unneeded chemicals to worry about).

Hope this helps.....and stick with it, it will be worth it in the end!!

Janet

Edit: Here's the link to the post from Carl about testing strength of liquid chlorine.. I think restricted users can follow the link but if not, let me know and I'll copy/paste it for you.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...+concentration

[daddyjmo]

Hi again. That actually happened last time to me... Got about halfway through and bam, it was all gone!!!

I'm not 100% sure but I believe it's either plaster or concrete... Not vinyl. Afraid that's the best I can do. I hope it helps.

[Watermom]

Before clicking submit, especially if you have typed a lengthy post, do "control A" to highlight all the typed text and then "control C" to copy. That way, just in case the software does log you out, you won't lose your post. We have all had that happen to us at various times as well.

[aylad]

Before clicking submit, especially if you have typed a lengthy post, do "control A" to highlight all the typed text and then "control C" to copy. That way, just in case the software does log you out, you won't lose your post. We have all had that happen to us at various times as well.

Wish I could blame it on the software, but this time it was a random key that I hit as I was concluding the post. That's what happens when my fingers are moving faster than my brain---I HATE it when that happens!!

I'm happy to see that the software hasn't timed out on me since we went to this new server. Hoping that's not just coincidence...



Janet

[Watermom]

Hasn't timed out on me either, and no more parse errors!

[daddyjmo]

I finally got my k-2006 kit in the mail yesterday so I thought I'd come and post some real numbers for you guys.

Initial test yesterday:

FC - 10
CC - 2.5

pH - 7.0
TA - 100

CH - 350

CYA - 25 (estimated)

Keep in mind that we had been operating blindly as far as adding chlorine goes because of not being able to test anything. CYA is estimated because we had to go up slightly past the 30ppm line to make the black circle disappear. We used a pool calculator recommended somewhere else on this forum to figure out what to add. To up pH we added borax (enough to get it up to 7.5 according to calculator, added cya to nudge that up a bit and added chlorine to send it up and above shock level. We also have switched from bleach to 10% liquid chlorine as of yesterday (yesterday was first time we added that instead of bleach). Tested an hour later and got these numbers:

FC - 24.0
CC - 2.5

pH - 8.0
TA - 100

We didn't test for hardness again. We also didn't test CYA again because it says it can take a few days to register a change. I also understand that the pH reading can be a bit wonky with higher chlorine levels. That was last night, we tested just the chlorine again this morning to check and see how much it dropped:

FC - 23.0
CC - 2.0

Just a 1ppm drop overnight, which is a good thing correct? I know CC too high but it did drop a bit. Are we on the right track? What do we do or what can we do know to help this process along? Depending on the lighting and angle you look at the water it can look like a nice cloudy blue or a bleh cloudy greenish blue.

Side note, since I have to clean the filter every hour or so still I take it out at night and let the pump run just so I don't lose the circulation. When I do that however it seems to churn up whatever is in the water and by morning there is a small greyish white foamy substance swirling around the top of most of the pool. Not sure what it is or if it's bad... Once I put the filter back in it's usually mostly gone about an hour or two later. Should I be running it 24/7 like this with the filter out some part of the time or should I just turn the whole system off when I'm not able to clean it?


Thanks!!!