A few thoughts about CYA

[OddJob]

Just goes to show that pool care is REALLY as easy as ABC!

I agree!

I'm somewhat tempted to ask my parents to come by the house and add some bleach when we are gone and run the filter. And *not* add CYA ... what do you guys think? (I don't add bleach everyday ... if we aren't swimming, I'll check it at night and only add it if necessary. I haven't kept track, but it seems if we aren't swimming, I haven't had to add bleach). Therefore, if the keep an eye on it and add bleach every other day or so ...????

[Watermom]

Sure. Why not. I can't imagine how you aren't losing all your chlorine to the sun every day. That is strange to me.

[aylad]

It's strange to me too, that you aren't losing all your chlorine to the sun, but if it's worked for you so far, then I don't see any reason to "fix what ain't broke". If they can add the bleach at the same frequency that you do, then I don't see where the pool will know the difference............

Janet

[gordyjamz]

Hi there, I originally started this thread last week. I was thinking of trying no CYA next year after a full drain/refill after liner replacement. I was talking to a friend of mine down in AZ yesterday, and he was telling me I should consider bromine. He said he uses it and has had far less problems than when he had chlorine. He also said that bromine doesn't require stabilizer, and that CYA has no inhibiting factors to it. I told him that I thought they only use that stuff on spas and jacuzzis. HE said they do, but a lot of people use it for pools also. Would this be an alternative to bleach? Maybe just another crazy idea poppin in my head, as I am skeptical about it. Any thoughts?


Ken

[waterbear]

advantages of bromine over chlorine in an outdoor pool:
1. none

disadvantages of bromine over chlorine in an outdoor pool:
1. cannot be stabilized against lost from UV light so chemical use is much higher and often there is no sanitizer in the water when it is needed most during the heat of the day because it has burned off (THIS is why bromne doesn't require stabilizer. It can't be stabilized! Hot tubs are kept covered to keep the heat in so they are not exposed to sunlight for long periods of time and indoor pools, well, obviously!)

2. more expensive requires more chemicals (sodium bromide to create the bromide bank, an oxidizer--usually chlorine, and bromine tabs, which normally contain organic bromide and an organic chlorine source.

3. bromine is a known sensitizer

4. Does not eliminate the use of chlorine since chlorine is the usual oxidizer in bromine pools. MPS can also be used but is much more expensive and MPS is also a sensitizer.

5. Bromine has a decided 'chemical' smell. Bromamines have a 'fishy' smell but are not eliminated since they are considered to be effective sanitizers, unlike chloramines. However there is some debate on this.

6. If pH drops low the formation of toxic elemental bromine is very likely and dangerous. Bromime tabs ARE acidic (like trichlor) so this is a possibility of you do not keep watch on TA and pH on a regular basis. I have seen it happen more than once!

There are some advantages in hot tubs and possibly in indoor pools (but indoor pools are also a subject of debate).

I still don't understand why you have this aversion to CYA. If you use an unstabilized chlorine and just add the proper amount of CYA to bring it up to 50 ppm you will not have any problems from overstabilization. Higher CYA levels can actually translate into less chlorine usage in many instances. The key is learning and understanding what you are doing and it's not really hard.


Also understand that I have a much better knowledge of bromine chemistry than the majority of people out there and have written guides for it's use on some other forums and have been quoted and referenced on at least one hot tub site (that I know of).
Also realize that lots of people using bromine are using it wrong (just like the number of people using chlorine that are using it wrong).

The key is education about the sanitizer you are using._

Hope this clears up some confusion.

[chem geek]

I'm somewhat tempted to ask my parents to come by the house and add some bleach when we are gone and run the filter. And *not* add CYA ... what do you guys think?

As I posted before, you should have SOME CYA in the water, even if it's a low 20 or 30 ppm amount. Not having any CYA at all in a chlorine pool is bad on several counts. Not only will the chlorine break down in sunlight quickly, but it will be too strong unless you keep the level very, very low and that is pretty much impossible to do without automated dosing equipment and even then it's hard to maintain anything lower than 0.5 ppm FC reliably. So again, please add at least a small amount of CYA to the water.

[gordyjamz]

Thanks for the info on the bromine. I really don't have an aversion to CYA, just am curious, really. Like I said earlier, if it ain't broke don't fix it. I will probably land up going back to my current levels after the refill in spring, since it's what's been working for some years now. Though maybe a little lower on the CYA (currently at 40). Maybe shoot for 20 or 30. What did they do in the old days before CYA? Must've had to check levels every few hrs during the day, is my guess. Anyways, thanks for bearing with my inquiries and maybe crazy ideas

Ken

[CarlD]

As long as there have been Tri-chlor tablets and Di-chlor powder there has been CYA.

aylad, one of our moderators, keeps her pool at a very high CYA level, 80ppm usually, because in Louisiana, there is SUCH a high chlorine use she's be adding it 3x a day. At 80ppm, aylad maintains her chlorine between 5 and10 ppm and her pool stays clear and her chlorine usage is moderate.

This is what our "Ben's Best Guess" table is all about--correct levels of chlorine to use with various levels of CYA even up to over 100 (not recommended, but do-able).

CYA is a two-edged sword, but, with knowledge and a good test kit, you won't get cut by either edge.

This summer, lots of people around the nation have noticed much higher chlorine demand--myself included. Not sure why, but it just "is".

[waterbear]

As long as there have been Tri-chlor tablets and Di-chlor powder there has been CYA.

The widespread use of chloinated cyanurates and the use of cyanuric acid did not really become widespread until the late 60s/early 70s but they were developed and introduced (by Monsanto if I am not mistaken) in the early 60s.

[OddJob]

Ok. I just added 4lbs of cya. I put it in an old sock and hung it in front of the return jet. I tested and the black dot was *almost* invisible at 30ppm. I'm assuming I must be close to 30 since it is a definite change from no cya to this reading.

I'm not sure why I added it now ... since I've been good all summer (just lucky?). Vacation and ChemGeek have freaked me out!!

I will post a full set of numbers after we finish swimming. And I'll have to check the chart again and adjust my bleach addition accordingly.

ChemGeek, if you happen to read this far again, do you have any thoughts as to why I made it this far (since May) without CYA and no problems? I'm not being snarky, just curious.