new poster, questions and comments

Greetings-
This is my first post after finding this forum two weeks ago and voraciously reading everything I could. For the first time in my five seasons of being a pool owner (and self-maintaining), I finally grasp the basics of pool chemistry, thanks to this site. I'm also the proud owner of my first real test kit (Taylor K2006) again thanks to you.

First my stats:

Living in Phoenix area (high temps, nearly full days sun exposure, hard water)
10,000 in ground concrete with Pebble-Tec surface (owned since new)
UV-type ozonator
Pool Frog
Cartridge filters

This morning's numbers:

FC=3.5
CC=0
pH=7.4
TA=90
CH=110
CYA=45

Now some questions and comments. The first two seasons I dutifully tested chlorine (was not so good on the pH), and according to the Pool Frog literature, I was OK with as low as .5 FC. I always maintained it between 0 and 2, and never did I have an algae problem. What I did get was a nice scale ring, probably because of laxity on the pH checking, and clueless about any of the other parameters. Also, I was left with the impression from the pool builder that I could pretty much ignore the pool all winter. Upon preparing for the third season, I found that I was starting to see faint signs of algae, and I couldn't raise FC above 0 to save my life. So took sample in for testing, I don't remember the numbers now, but they basically recommended a complete drain and refill "because our water is so hard here". So that's what I did, still being clueless about adding anything at startup, like stabilizer, or calcium for a concrete pool. Well now I know that the Frog, using tri-chlor, continually adds stabilizer, and that probably contributed to my chlorine failure at startup after two seasons of use. Anyway, that season came and went without incident. 4th season, I did a partial drain and refill, rinse and repeat. By this time I was using the Taylor free chlorine DPD kit, and I was watching the pH better, but I still had no clue about checking for CC (couldn't anyway with that kit), and my routine was to use up one Bac-Pac in the frog, then shock, then insert a new Bac-Pac, etc. Come to this, the 5th season, and I did a complete drain and re-fill about two months ago (I wasn't worried about ground water displacement, we live in the foothills with ground so hard you need a jack hammer for landscaping), again clueless about stabilizer and calcium. So after reading here and getting the good kit, I find that my CYA is already up to 45 without adding any on my own, and the CH is already up to 110, even though I know now that's probably too low.

So my first question pertains to the Frog, I have read that the minerals are pretty much bogus in this concentration, and of course the tri-chlor isn't helping me (except to make up for my ignorance at startup!). However, I'm really confused by the info here and my experience regarding algae. Everything here says that with the CYA levels I've been experiencing, I should be maintaining much higher chlorine levels than I have been, yet except for the one time I mentioned, I've never had the slightest hint of algae problems, and that one time now makes sense since the CYA must have been off the charts by that time. What am I missing? Is it that the chlorine needs to be higher for human sanitation than for algae? I don't get it. Or is it more likely that in my ignorance, my practice of shocking after the bac-pac depletion was all that was required? I suspect that's the answer, but I don't know for sure since I wasn't monitoring any other parameters, like CC. Anyway, I've now discontinued using the Frog to keep my CYA from climbing any more.

Next question, regarding the calcium levels, reading here indicates that I should have at least 200 for concrete pool, so I must be too low. Hopefully I am accumulating enough with evaporation to keep damage at bay, but I would feel better about adding some manually. With that in mind, yesterday I set out to find some, first at Lowes, then Walmart, finally Leslie's. Apparently nobody here believes that we should have to add it, since I couldn't find any, because "our water is so hard here", I guess. At Leslie's my first contact was a trainee, and when I asked for some calcium chloride, first she said (with a hint of disbelief in her voice), "you want to add calcium?". Then she asked me for a trade name, and of course in my state of ignorance I couldn't name her one. She went to ask her super, and while I waited I looked pretty thoroughly on my own with no luck. I finally walked out while still waiting for help. So, should I be concerned, and if so where could I locate this stuff that's apparently so abundant here I should be able to scoop it out of the dirt?

Finally, I guess the ozonator isn't really doing anything for me either, right? I've done a lot of reading about those, and still feel like it's voodoo. Should I just ignore it and not change the bulb again (after having spent something like 20-30 dollars and a couple hours re-wiring because it wasn't a simple plug-in item, the last time that happened), or should I actually remove it from the electricity altogether?

That's probably enough for now, I know I had other things, but this is long enough already, and hopefully I can remember what else later on. One more thing, I want to tell you what a helpful and friendly place this is, the mods and longtime users are so enthusiastic and eager to help, a refreshing change from some forums I've been to, where it can range from indifferent to downright rude and arrogant. Kudos, and thanks.

Dan

Hi Dan, and welcome to the forum! I'll try and answer a few of your questions.

Regarding why you haven't had algae in the past? Don't know for sure but I guess it was because you shocked after the "bac pac depletion," (I have no idea what bac pac is.) How did you shock?

You do have enough cya in there. 45 is a good level. Just maintain cl levels between 3-6 and your shock level when needed will be 15.

To add calcium, you can use cal-hypo for your source of chlorine until you get the calcium hardness reading between 200-400. Then, you'll want to switch to bleach.

Don't need the ozonator. I think you could just remove it altogether since, if you follow our methods here, you'll most likely never use it again, but that is just my opinion.

Glad you are enjoying the forum and thanks for the kind words. We enjoy helping people learn to manage their pools. Repost if you have other questions and good job doing your "homework" and reading through the info on this forum.

Bac-Pac is the name of the tri-chlor cartridge for the Pool Frog. I have been using dichlor for shocking, which I now realize also contributed to increased CYA. Will stop using that, and just use bleach.

Can't even locate the cal-hypo locally, guess I'll have to order online.

Any suggestions as to how I can get rid of the scale ring? I've tried various things like pumice stone (way too much elbow grease required for that) and some chemical that you put in the water when it was cooler and raised the water level for a while. Can't find the product online now, but it came in a quart jug and was a red color. That didn't do anything. I've read that lowering the pH would help it start to loosen up, is that recommended?

One other thing that's not chemical related, but I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction. We have a big problem with honeybees, they show up in the early morning and the late afternoon, which is our prime swimming time. I've searched the web in vain and tried various things like mothballs and sound waves (how geeky is that!) to no avail. Seems like the only solution I've found so far is hiring a beekeeper and have them hunt down the hive and destroy it. Since these are most likely wild (we live on the edge of the desert mountains), that sounds expensive and difficult. Anyway, I don't really want to destroy these beneficial creatures (even though we have to use spray just to keep them reasonable enough to swim), I just want them to go away. I wouldn't mind so much if they were helping to pay for the pool!

Dan

Lemme eliminate the easy stuff, first. That is, the stuff I can't answer: bees. The only idea I could come up with is to see if they are using your pool as a water source. If they are, you might could put a bird bath between your pool, and their home, and see if they'd use that, instead. Just a W.A.G. though.

About the stuff you're using:

"Frog Bam" (where do they get these names??) => MSDS at ChemQuip (Adobe PDF file)
-- Copper algicide --

"Bac-Pac" => MSDS at ChemQuip (Adobe PDF file)
-- Trichlor pack --

"Mineral Reservoir" => MSDS at ChemQuip (Adobe PDF file)
-- Insoluble silver chloride in marble dust --

What stuff does:

UV Ozonator - probably does nothing if it's a flow through unit; if it's has an air pump or venturi it MAY restrict flow, but it PROBABLY aerates the pool enough to help keep alkalinity low -- possibly not a bad thing for you.

Bac-Pac - overpriced trichlor.

Mineral Reservoir - dumps silver chloride (black) around your pool. If they've been able to do that without staining your pool visibly, the silver that has adhered to the pool sides *could* (GUESSING, only) make it hard for algae to get started.


About scale -- It's my understanding that water in the Phoenix area is often a mineral soup, and that in particular, it contains magnesium, silica, and other stuff. Without knowing what's in your water (or scale) I'm not sure what to suggest. Silica is often ground off; I don't know if there's a better way. Calcium carbonate will come off with acid.

A good place to start would be to get a water analysis from your water company. That will give you some info about what's going IN to your pool, which in turn would give us all clues about what's ON your pool.

PoolDoc

Had the Honey Bee problem last year. Hopefully won't this year. So far, so good. When I opened and shocked the daylights out of my pool I would see some dead ones on the patio? Also, before removing the cover (I have a solid cover) I let a small pool of water remain around the pump and put a pesticide in it. Those who came died. I read everything I could find on this last year, and no really solid suggestions other than what PoolDoc just said. Provide an alternative water source. In my case, I have a pond as close to their nest as my pool but they came anyway. First time this has happened and I have my pool fence grown over with grape vine. It looks good (way better than chain link!) but you can HEAR the bees come late August when it starts to go to fruit there are so many. We just live with that, and never a problem! We leave them alone and vice versa. But dotting on the water is a problem as accidental contact is inevitable. If it starts up again I figure I have 2 optons. 1: Contact a local bee keeper and try to get them to come and take away the queen so the hive will follow. 2: The nuclear option. I know their numbers are down, so I would rather not, but... I did read that if you are persistent and keep killing them as they come by they will figure it out and stop unless they are really desperate for water, like in the desert (sorry). Good luck. If I find out anything I'll post it. I did see one odd reference here on PF to 50ppm borates (polyquat?). I posted a question but didn't hear back, it was buried in a thread and not really all that related either. If anyone knows anything about that I'm sure all ears!

Quote:

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Lemme eliminate the easy stuff, first. That is, the stuff I can't answer: bees. The only idea I could come up with is to see if they are using your pool as a water source. If they are, you might could put a bird bath between your pool, and their home, and see if they'd use that, instead. Just a W.A.G. though.

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I had thought of that before, thanks for reminding me. Yes, they are after the water, I had heard (I think from a beekeeper I spoke to once) that they not only consume it but use it with their wings for an evaporative cooler at the hive. Interesting.

Quote:

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"Frog Bam" (where do they get these names??) => MSDS at ChemQuip (Adobe PDF file)
-- Copper algicide --

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Never used it, maybe because the name conjured up images of cars and frogs mingling. Having copper, looks like I'll never use it.

Since the mineral reservoir costs just shy of 100 dollars every year (plus another 80-90 bucks for a 6-pak Bac-Pac), if it doesn't provide substantial benefit then I'll probably drop that as well.

The ozonator is an UltraPure UPPX5, I tried to locate the manual online but no luck, the manual I have states on the front 'valveless suction side installation', so I don't know how that description fits with yours.

I'll have to check on the water report, just last week we received our annual municipal water report, but they only include regulated substances, I didn't see any minerals listed.

Also I was mistaken about getting cal-hypo locally, guess I'm still indoctrinated and haven't learned to read labels for myself:rolleyes:. This question has probably been answered many times before, so sorry for being repetitious; the bags come in different strengths of active ingredient, like 48 or 52% of cal-hypo, and the rest is 'remaining ingredients'. Should I be looking for 100% active (doesn't seem likely to me), or are they all that way and are the inactive ingredients unimportant to know?

Thanks,
Dan

Yep. 100% cal hypo contains -- usually -- 67% available chlorine.

Avoid the cal hypo blends. And if you are wondering, yes, they are trying to trick you. The 'other ingredients' are considerably cheaper than cal hypo, by the pound.

The ozone system sounds like it's a suction side (in front of the pump) air inlet. Those type systems continuously aerate the pool, and make it impossible to maintain recommended levels of carbonate alkalinity. However, this is only a problem on concrete (plaster, etc.) pools.

PoolDoc

Quote:

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The ozone system sounds like it's a suction side (in front of the pump) air inlet. Those type systems continuously aerate the pool, and make it impossible to maintain recommended levels of carbonate alkalinity. However, this is only a problem on concrete (plaster, etc.) pools.

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That's what I have, concrete w/PebbleTec surface. So, if I read you right, I really should disable this thing to keep from eventually compromising the concrete, right? Or, at least monitor and correct the alkalinity often (which I have never done until this last week after I got my K2006), although when you say 'impossible' is that what you really mean?

On the flip side, if the time comes when I really do need to lower the alkalinity would this be a convenient way to aerate, or is there some other reason why I shouldn't use it? This is probably a silly question, but that's just the way I think sometimes.

I can't believe I haven't destroyed my pool in my ignorance, thankfully it's still fairly new and I can redeem myself (I hope:)).

Dan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PBLsQuad450

2: The nuclear option. I know their numbers are down, so I would rather not, but... I did read that if you are persistent and keep killing them as they come by they will figure it out and stop unless they are really desperate for water, like in the desert (sorry). Good luck.

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Yeah, we use a spray pesticide around the pool, and it does kill them, lots of them, but as you say being in the desert they must be desperate.

That brings up another question: I wonder if the pesticide will alter the pool chemical analysis in any harmful way, since it is getting in the pool somewhat.

I guess I should have started separate threads for all these different issues, I'll be better about that in the future.

Dan

Hey Dan,
I just happen to be an exterminator.I get bees buzzing around my pool also.Never a problem before I put the pool up though...hmmm.They are just attracted to water in/around pool.The nest may or may not even be on your property.As far as finding the queen bee that is like winning a 100 million dollar lottery twice in the same week.Your best bet is to go to a home depot,lowes..(even Leslie pools had some),jars with an attractant in them and hang several around your fenceline AWAY from your pool.(or hang them from trees between 5 and 10 feet high)I use them at work all the time and they work AWESOME.They have lids that permit pest entry but will not let them out.The ones I use are made by Victor.I'm sure they have a website.

Peek-
I've seen a small one labeled for yellowjackets, I guess I assumed they wouldn't work for honeybees. Is that what you're talking about? If so, I don't think they would work simply because of the size. I'm talking about several dozen at a time, and they would quickly fill up as many traps as I could care to buy and hang up, every day! I'm going to stop at Lowe's tonight and see what they have, it's been a couple years since I looked. If you're talking about something different I'm all ears.

Years ago my brother got into beekeeping for a short time, I learned a few things about them at the time, they sure are fascinating.

Thanks,
Dan