Pool stores, devils and anti-christs.

Contrary to what some people here have said, pool stores are not filled with demons. They aren't the "antichrist". They are just ordinary people, doing ordinary jobs, in entirely ordinary ways.

There are some bad people who knowingly are doing bad things. Even though I doubt that it originated in an evil plan, I'm pretty sure that some pool chemical executives today understand that their market share depends on deceiving pool owners.

But, for the most part, pool store owners are as much victims of that as you are. For the most part, it's not fair to them, nor honest about ourselves, to see it differently.

So, I would ask you all to be careful to be fair. Yes, pool store owners rip off pool owners. But most of them aren't doing so knowingly or deliberately. They are just doing what they've been taught was the right thing to do.

Ben
"PoolDoc"

Amen, Ben, Well Said. As a very long time pool owner I have a few simple tips that will go a long way when dealing with Pool Store owners, employees etc.

1) Take water samples to more than 1 store for testing, the more the merrier BEFORE ADDING CHEMICALS. Pay close attention to the testing techniques used by the various people and you may see a big difference. Take a note pad and write down your results. NEVER TRUST THE FIRST SET OF READINGS. Get a second (third, fourth etc) opinion. Better still, learn how to do your own testing.

2) Ask questions and understand what they are telling you to put into your pool and why. Ask Why like a little kid and continue to ask until you fully understand. What is the expected out come? How much to add etc. Do I pre-mix, add into skimmer, or simply dump into deep end? When they tell you something looks good or bad (pH, CYA, Chlorine etc.) ask for the specific number.

3) Know how many gallons your pool holds before you ask a pool store employee to guess.

4) There may come a time when draining and re-filling will be cheaper than dumping hundreds of dollars worth of chemicals into your pool. Always keep that in perspective.

Hope this helps. BTDG.

"Contrary to what some people here have said, pool stores are not filled with demons. They aren't the "antichrist". They are just ordinary people, doing ordinary jobs, in entirely ordinary ways."

OTOH, Pool CHEMICAL companies ARE all those things!

The difference is knowing the difference - which can be found here:)

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Originally Posted by CarlD

OTOH, Pool CHEMICAL companies ARE all those things!

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Not all pool chemical companies behave the same either. The chlorinated cyanurate (e.g. trichlor, dichlor) manufacturers seem to "intentionally withhold materially important information consumers need to know to make informed purchase decisions" while the makers of PolyQuat and the makers of non-chlorine shock tend to be more straightforward. Then there are your alternative sanitizer folks...

Richard you're absolutely right about makers of trichlor not being straightforward. I use the stuff when necessary and usually every few years I'll get a bucket, usually at Sams Club. There are two flavors, one is plain, the other is labelled as multi-purpose or something like that. The ingredient labels are virtually the same. Does one have copper or other junk in it? Would never know from the label. I would think they would HAVE to tell you but guess not. I always opt for the plain vanilla variety. Thought it worth mentioning again.
Al

Even with pool chemical companies, the reality is more complex than many users here seem to believe.

As far as I know, only Olin (now, Arch), Monsanto and Biolab had true research departments. Arch was spun off, is not independent, and is not doing research any more. Monsanto has been out of the business for years. Biolab is doing research, but I think it has more to do with marketing, than pool chemistry.

Apart from these guys, the labels are "me-too" affairs.

Some of you'd be amazed at how utterly ignorant of pool chemistry some of the pool product process engineers really are. Their focus is all on MAKING and/or PACKAGING the product in a way that complies with all the regulators and makes the marketing department happy. They don't have the time or interest to do more.

At the base level, I don't think anyone is doing research into new or better ways. The pool industry is just not big enough, and the barriers to entry (thanks to the EPA and others) are so high, pool product research is a genuinely dumb investment.

So, most of the pool product makers are just packaging someone else's idea.

PoolDoc

Have 3 pool stores in striking distance (I'm in Jersey, we do chemicals). One, I have not dealt with in any way for 10 years. Not a chem issue, a costly construction/repair issue gone bad. Of the other 2, one is criminal. I have written this in another post, but I actually had a guy swearing up and down that I really didn't know what I was talking about and Trichlor did NOT have CYA in it. "It is nothing more than slow dissolving chlorine." Said it 10 times. Sad thing is, he won. I gave in. That was well before PF but after a lot of other reading. Just killed my confidence. The third? A local Leslie. They drop test. They are generally accurate and honest. I have, many times, had them say, "everything is good, great, enjoy!" Had weird issues with them 2 times but odd, not an attempt to sell me things I don't need. Anyway, everything in perspective right. Thanks PF. Again, like I said in other posts, still need them for parts.

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

Contrary to what some people here have said, pool stores are not filled with demons. They aren't the "antichrist". They are just ordinary people, doing ordinary jobs, in entirely ordinary ways.



Ben
"PoolDoc"

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As someone who has worked in a pool store all I can say is "thank you, Ben".

However, I will add that in pool stores (as in all forms of retail) bottom line is most important so there is pressure to sell as many products as possible. My boss was much happier when someone walked out with algaecide, clarifier, phosphate remover, and a bucket of trichlor tabs than when they walked out with a few carboys of chlorine and a gallon of acid!. (the former using all the "pool store chemicals" and the latter dosing with liquid chlorine and basically doing what is promoted on here!)
However, he was very happy by the amount of Proteam Supreme Plus I would push! (Yes, it's just an expensive mix of borax and boric acid but it does work as an algaestat and pH stabilizer!)

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

Contrary to what some people here have said, pool stores are not filled with demons. They aren't the "antichrist". They are just ordinary people, doing ordinary jobs, in entirely ordinary ways.

There are some bad people who knowingly are doing bad things. Even though I doubt that it originated in an evil plan, I'm pretty sure that some pool chemical executives today understand that their market share depends on deceiving pool owners.

But, for the most part, pool store owners are as much victims of that as you are. For the most part, it's not fair to them, nor honest about ourselves, to see it differently.

So, I would ask you all to be careful to be fair. Yes, pool store owners rip off pool owners. But most of them aren't doing so knowingly or deliberately. They are just doing what they've been taught was the right thing to do.

Ben
"PoolDoc"

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The Leslie's store I've used for 16 years was staffed by the Mickey Mouse club yesterday. Only one guy seemed to even know what water is. When I asked for diatomaceous earth I thought he was going to cry, so I said DE. He cheered up and yelled to the back and the voice said "we're out". No surprise, this time of year they're all out. I had to cross the state line to find a 25 lb bag yesterday. Also, found out my local Home Depot does not carry pool products any more, so they recommended Leslie's.
By now I should know better than to wait until Memorial day weekend to go into "pool man" mode.
With any commercial endeavor - Caveat emptor.

Well I must say that Leslie's Corporate and the store in Taylor Michigan are doing right by me ..they mistakenly sold me their store kit instead of a new one which my Cousin drove down from Ontario to pick-up, and they are sending me a full refund and letting me keep the kit. It had Bromine reagents in it but I got Chlorine replacements from the Canadian Distributor so I'm good. They obviously could have just said too bad so sorry knowing they will likely never sell me anything in the future, or at least asked for the kit back.

Glenn in Toronto

In my favorite store there's a guy who won't push calcium on vinyl pool owners, knows pretty much what's what and is great on parts. Another guy thre tried to convince me that copper doesn't turn blonde hair green and is great stuff. But their LC is this freshest and strongest and they turn over pallets of the stuff

Leslies is a mixed bag. I'm had one guy GIVE me a the only container of R-0870 powder because he didn't know what it was and couldn't find a price. Another store had a close-out on the combo FAS-DPD-Monopersulfate test kit for $20...it's $65 from Taylor. I've also had a Leslies guy tell me "bleach is bad. It raises your total dissolved solids" (ie, salt). Yet they sell, online a re-badged version of the K2006 kit.

There are good and bad people in pool stores, just like in Home Depot and Best Buy, but most are decent people with incredibly bad information.

Carl

LOL, this reminds me of the time I decided to mess with the kid restocking eggs at ShopRite, I asked if they were chicken eggs, he replied "I'm not sure"

Ah yes, the old and sneaky vs the young and stupid.

My 16 year old and I play this game all the time. My two favorite responses:
". . . (long pause) . . . Ah crap, Dad. You did it again, didn't you?"
and
"I know, I know. You're trying to teach me to think before I speak. Darn it."

My all time favorite with ANY teen:
We were on a Scout camping trip, and the 15 year old was declaiming on the evils of nuclear weapons and and the wonders of unilateral disarmament. I was 'uhm-ing' in the right places. When he finally paused, I said "Yeah. It really is terrible, when all those people were killed with nuclear weapons, they were so much deader than they would have been with just a bullet!"

He responded with, "Yeah, that's right . . . wait, what?". He got the "what?" out just before the Assistant Scoutmaster and his father (who were both in earshot) started howling.

Ben