Pool stored!

Not me. My friends in Virginia. Long post—questions at the end if you just want to skip over this sorry tale.

They have an inground rectangular vinyl pool which ran on Baquacil for the first few seasons. I suggested they convert to BBB but my friend was unwilling to do the testing, saying she's "not a chemist". The water turned a murky green, I refused to swim in it any more and wouldn't let my dogs in it, either. Then the pink and white algae happened and they agreed that maybe Baqua wasn't what they wanted.

I offered to come down and convert the pool to BBB but no, they wanted the pool store to do that. Pool store said it can't be done but we can drain and refill, and that's what they did. Their new sanitizing system became an inline chlorinator using trichlor pucks. Every time my friend took a water sample to the store there was something wrong with the balance (we are not surprised, right?) and the water needed this and that, big money. She was always complaining about how expensive the chlorine method was. My suggestions of going with BBB continued to fall on deaf ears.

Toward the end of last season she complained about the water feeling "dry and hard" and the liner on the bottom had developed major wrinkles. I suspect her CYA was over the moon and her pH was likely down to the skin dissolving ranges. The pool store suggested draining and replacing the liner. The pool was empty for a good month. It's a miracle that it didn't get damaged during that time.

New liner was installed, pool was filled by a water truck. They now have a Hayward Swim-Pure SWCG. The pool company told them to get 20 bags of salt in preparation for them coming out to bring the generator on line. They bought the salt at Lowe's, Diamond Solar Salt, the same stuff I put in my pool each year to improve the water feel.

Pool company was aghast! Totally the wrong kind of salt, they said. This salt is too coarse, it has sharp edges which will cut your new liner, won't dissolve, won't work! Bad, bad salt! We'll bring you ours when we come out, powdered salt, genteel salt, much safer, much better.

And much costlier, I would imagine.

They did say to keep the solar salt for the future, that they could dissolve it in a bucket and add it to the pool when the SWCG needed to be fed.

At this point, my friend plans to do the maintenance by herself "for a couple of weeks, see how it goes" but the pool company will come out on a weekly basis to make whatever adjustments are necessary.

So. My questions:

1. Is regular solar salt okay or must it be powdered salt?
2. Is it true that a SWCG pool needs some copper in the water? If so, how is the copper added? Isn't it copper which turns blond hair green?
3. What kind of testing do you do with a SWCG? My guess is, the same as with BBB.
4. How complicated is it to adjust the system so it runs smoothly?

I know next to nothing about SWCGs. I would like to be able to help her and be supportive, maybe even teach her how to get away from the pool store although past history doesn't make me very hopeful.

I'm not the expert on SWGs Anna, but what little I know you are mostly correct on all counts, except the copper (it does turn blond hair green). You must also add a salt test, but the SWGs usually have that tester built in.

Two unnecessary liners. Totally.

However the world is FULL of people who know more than us about pools and pool maintenance. People with green pools and people who shut their pools down because it was too much trouble.

I used to go to a dentist who had a sign in his office that read "There is nothing the doctor can do that the patient cannot undo..."

Or as the old joke: How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? One, but the light bulb really has to want to change.

If your friend persists in her reluctance DESPITE seeing how beautiful your pool is and how little you do to maintain it, give up and have her come swim at YOUR house! (at least you'll always know your water is sanitary! :rolleyes: )

Hahaha! Thanks for putting up with me, Carl, and for understanding.

Ok, so the copper thing is not correct? I did wonder about that. The cell uses NaCl to make Cl, so why would it need copper added?

Not all of my pool friends are this . . . uh . . . resistant. A couple of years ago Jane bought a house with a pool. She sent me an e-mail: "Tell me how to take care of it." I talked to her about getting a test kit, about BBB, about using pool stores for hardware and the grocery store for chems. Went to visit for the house-warming, her pool was perfect. Jane's comment was: "I've seen your pool, I've watched you care for it. You know what you're doing and I wanted a piece of that."

It's very gratifying when that happens. It would be nice if my Virginia friend would see the light but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Copper is not needed in any pool, let alone one with a SWCG. They are probably suggesting that to prevent algae growth since they are unlikely to suggest a proper FC for the CYA level in their pool.

As for proper water balance for SWCG pools, the following post has info on that:

Water Balance for SWG Pools

The main issue in SWCG pools is that they tend to rise in pH. This is primarily caused by the SWCG system increasing aeration so outgassing of carbon dioxide and possibly by some outgassing of undissolved chlorine gas as well. So turning down the SWCG on-time helps reduce the rate of pH rise.

There are two ways to get the SWCG on-time to be lower which basically means lowering the chlorine demand/usage. One is to use a higher CYA level in the 60-80 ppm range, usually 70-80 ppm. This reduces the loss of chlorine from sunlight even if one uses a minimum FC level of 4 ppm which is recommended at this CYA level for SWCG pools. The other technique is to add 50 ppm Borates to the pool since that acts as a mild algaecide so cuts down on the amount of chlorine that could be fighting nascent algae growth. The Borates also act as a pH buffer. It is also important to lower the TA level dramatically, at least down to 70 ppm if not lower. This reduces the rate of carbon dioxide outgassing (not necessary if one has a pool cover).

Thanks a lot, Richard.

The borates may not be possible because her pool, like mine, is used by dogs and 50 ppm may be too high.

I'll read the article in Pool School and learn what I can.

I've talked to her about pH testing and adjusting and CYA but in truth, her eyes get all glassy and she shuts down. Still, I'll keep at it, can't help myself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AnnaK

It's very gratifying when that happens. It would be nice if my Virginia friend would see the light but I'm not going to hold my breath.

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Yeah, it's like they say: Don't marry someone intending to change them!

What?? You mean the "husband training" doesn't work??? :eek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Watermom

What?? You mean the "husband training" doesn't work??? :eek:

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Oh, let's not go there....:eek::eek::eek:

chuckle, chuckle, chuckle :D:D:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AnnaK

Pool company was aghast! Totally the wrong kind of salt, they said. This salt is too coarse, it has sharp edges which will cut your new liner, won't dissolve, won't work! Bad, bad salt! We'll bring you ours when we come out, powdered salt, genteel salt, much safer, much better.

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HORSE APPLES!!!
I wouldn't have been able to keep from bursting out in laughter. Such nonsense, and a blatant attempt to rip off a customer. If those sharp edges were to cut the liner i would have blamed the cheap liner (probably that pool guys "top of the line" liner).

AnnaK,

1.) When I am buying salt for my pool I look for the highest purity and no additives.

What I usually end up buying is item# 25654 from lowes.com

Pellets and 99.8%

Lowes does have "Pool Salt" on their webpage, but I've not seen it in the stores local to me and it is 99.6%
Their "Solar Salt" is 99.6% and is about $2 cheaper per 40lb bag. I imagine it would work, but it doesn't meet my first need of getting the highest purity possible. I'd go to another Lowes or HomeDepot store to get it if my closest one was out.

2.) Say NO to copper.

3.) Answered by Chem Geek

4.) There was a learning curve to mine, but once you get the hang of it there is no easier method of sanitation in my opinion.

Hope this helps.


Regards,

Mark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AnnaK

So. My questions:

1. Is regular solar salt okay or must it be powdered salt?
2. Is it true that a SWCG pool needs some copper in the water? If so, how is the copper added? Isn't it copper which turns blond hair green?
3. What kind of testing do you do with a SWCG? My guess is, the same as with BBB.
4. How complicated is it to adjust the system so it runs smoothly?

I know next to nothing about SWCGs. I would like to be able to help her and be supportive, maybe even teach her how to get away from the pool store although past history doesn't make me very hopeful.

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1. It is fine...often purer than so called "pool salt" (I use the solar salt myself, it IS cheaper!)
2. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
(Yes, copper turns hair green and stains pools!)
3. Same tests as BBB and also test for salt (Aquacheck salt test strips are what I would recommend). If they add borates (which I would HIGHLY recommend) use the LaMotte borate test strips! I have three dogs, they can be taught that the pool is NOT a big water bowl!
4. Keep salt at recommended level or slightly higher (3200-3400 ppm for Hayward)
CYA 80 PPM for Hayward
FC adjust the output to maintain 3-5 ppm
pH no lower than 7.6. When it climbs to 7.8 or 8.0 lower it back down to 7.6 (acid demand test useful here!) DON"T LET pH CLIMB ANY HIGHER and don't drop it below 7.6 unless lowering TA).
TA between 60-80 ppm (uncorrected TA. THIS is one of the most important water balance parameters to maintain pH stability!)
CH over 100 ppm for vinyl.
Borates 30-50 ppm (won't hurt the dogs if they just swim. If they think the pool is their outside water bowl they need to be trained... put in a call to Cesar Milan! :eek:)

The above parameter work! Period!
They do need a good test kit (Taylor K-2006 fas/dpd kit with acid and base demand....acid demand is useful with a SWG) and do need to test their water. If they rely on the pool company or pool store they will continue to have problems and throw a LOT of money into the pool!

If they have a cartridge filter then the water will remain more "stable". If they have a sand or DE filter that is backwashed then they need to keep closer tabs on salt, CYA, and borates, which will drop with each backwash and will need to be 'bumped up' more often.

Hope this is helpful.

BTW, the post that Riichard referred you to was originally written by me back in the day before TFP had its current owner.

The one thing everyone did not mention was that you should NOT add table salt to your pool--most edible salt contains iodine and I gather iodine is VERY bad for swimming water, especially SWG pools.

Evan: you need calcium for an SWG even in a vinyl pool? Please explain.

Thank you all for taking an interest in this situation. I am passing all your suggestions on to my friends.

I learned that the pool company will come weekly for the first 4 weeks after the installation to set the equipment up and get it running—but from what I've read here it'll take more than once-a-week attention to get it running right]. I will again try to sell her on the idea of a good test kit and doing her own testing.