Pool for the deployed troops

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to put this post, but I have to start somewhere. I am currently deployed overseas and our location has a empty concrete pool of which we are looking to get back in operation. Leadership here is excited to get this project moving, but I need to come up with a cost estimate to get it up to speed.

The pool is 60' x 40' x 5.5'. I est. ~ 100K gallons. All the equipment has been torn out and is gone, so we need the filtration system from the ground up. All the installation will be done ourselves (plenty of competent folks to do it). Here are the questions I have:

1) There are 4 x skimmers, and 4 x return lines. Looking through the flow rate calculator, I think I need a pump capable of > 166GPM using a 10 hr turnover. What size pump do I need for this?

2) With the above information, what size filter? Would a 36" sand filter be adequate?

3) The pool is rough concrete. There is no requirement for any of it to be pretty, just functional. There are several cracks along the bottom that allows seepage INTO the pool. I'm assuming to fix these we will need to chisel out the cracks and refill to seal them. What is the recommended material for this?

4) The rough concrete needs to be painted. Would a cheaper acrylic pool paint be sufficient considering the longevity of our possible occupation? Or would it be better to splurge on epoxy paint from the get go? We do have industrial epoxy paint they use on the auto shop floors. Are they created equal?

5) Chlorine vs salt vs whatever. I'm only familiar with chlorine pools. All the rave seems to be with salt pools now days. What is the initial cost and continuing maintenance cost difference? Contrary to popular belief, there is not an abundance of money to spend on 'moral' projects.

I'm sure there are other questions that I can't think to ask at the moment. Please send any and all recommendations to me.

I hope there is someone here that can help with my questions or at least direct me to someone who can. I appreciate your time. If we can pull this off, there will be a multitude of troops who will benefit from the effort!

In your service,
Robby

Robby,

You have a lot of great questions and I'm sure EVERYONE here will do everything they can to give you the best advice they can. I can only talk about a few things--what I know about.

I'd estimate your volume at just under 90,000 gallons figuring that with a 5.5' depth you only actually have 5' of water.

I would guess--and it's STRICTLY a WAG, that you'd need two 300lb sand filters (I can never keep straight the " to lb conversion) and two 2hp full-rated pumps--one for each filter. But that's just my WAG. Better people than me can give you better recs.

I'm not sure how to repair the pool. You may be able to chisel out the crack and fill it with pool epoxy--you are painting over it. I can't help you on the paint questions.

As for Salt Water Generation vs chlorine. BOTH are chlorine pools. Salt is Sodium Chloride and the system cracks the salt to create free chlorine in lower, but very constant levels. Not sure of the chemistry, but the combined chlorine (the used-up stuff) recombines with sodium to make salt. In THEORY, your salt level stays the same.

However, these systems are pretty expensive considering how big your pool is--about 4-6 times the size of most of our owners' pools, and double the very biggest. (My own is about 20,000 gallons).

But you should have plenty of access to liquid chlorine over there. LC is just like bleach only about twice as strong. It's usually rated at 12% but when I test it it's usually more like 14-14.5%. What this means is that you'd need about 9 gallons of ordinary regular laundry bleach (no sudsing, gel, or perfumes) to get a free chlorine level of 5.25 parts per million 9 gallons of Ultra bleach would get you a level of 6ppm--generally good, clean water. But you could get the same level from 4 to 4.5 gallons of LC, and it's sold in 5 gallon carboys most places.

A 5 gallon drum here is now between $18 and $20, so how many gallons would a properly sized SWG system cost you? Say it's $4000--that's 200 5-gallon carboys of LC. Say you use a carboy a week (reasonable, once you have regular maintenance going). If your location is in one of the two hot zones our nation is now engaged in, you probably have winter time and can swim for, say, 4-5 months a year. So...say it's 25 weeks/year. That means your 200 carboys may last 8 years. In other words, by MY very, very rough estimate, it's going to take years to re-coup the cost of the SWG. I'm guessing about a lot of these numbers, and the amount of usage can vary (Make sure NOBODY swims without showering first and your chlorine will last a lot longer). But it's a ball-park guess.

Again, others will surely weigh in to improve on my estimates, but I'm pretty good at rule-of-thumb calculations on chlorine:

1 gallon of 5.25% bleach will create 5.25 ppm of chlorine in 10,000 gallons of water.
1 gallon of 6% ultra bleach will create 6ppm in 10,000 gallons.

You need 2 gallons of either to create the same level in 20,000 gallons.

And you'll need 9 gallons to create the same level in 90,000 gallons.

Since LC is about twice as strong as Ultra bleach, you'll need half as much.

Good Luck and thank you for your service to all of us.

Carl

Thanks Carl for the reply.
I do believe the traditional chlorine option is going to be the best option not only due to price concerns, but for the pure simplicity. I'm comfortable in maintaining a pool, but when I'm gone, I want it to be simple for the next guy. I didn't think of liquid chlorine as the sole chlorine used. I was thinking traditional chlorinator via tablets. Considering my location and the probability of buying chlorine in bulk, doesn't LC gas off at a high rate? Would I be able to use up a drum before it went bad? Some good thoughts!

You think 2x 300lb filters would be sufficient? This will be a high use pool. Something that just came to mind... Will a sand filter be capable in filtering out 'desert' dust?

Another question: What's the best way to minimize evaporation? It will probably be a daylight use only pool. Rolling plastic over it at night maybe?

Please keep the replies coming in! I (and everyone else that will be able to use it) truly appreciate your time!

Robby

While using a chlorinator with tabs in your situation is probably ideal while the stabilizer is building up, the problem with the chlorinator and tablets is that, eventually, your stabilizer level is going to get too high to be able to keep the pool clear. Once it gets to 80 ppm or so, you're going to have to switch either to granulated chlorine (cal-hypo) or liquid chlorine. Depending on how long your swim season is, with it being a high use pool, and with the amount of heat/sunlight the pool gets, I would think you would be able to use most if not all of a drum of LQ within one swim season. Due to the sheer volume of water, each chlorine dose is going to be larger than it is in the average pool, and I would think that it would need to be shocked frequently, which is also going to take large amounts of chlorine at once--to me, the drum makes the most sense. Plus, once you work out what the nightly dose is, you just tell the next guy how much to pour in each night.

Not sure where you are--I have a cousin finishing up his second tour in Iraq this month and we're looking forward to getting him home. Thank you so much for all you are doing for us back here!!!

Janet

#1 - THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY/ THE WORLD!!


#2 - Welcome to the forum!!



55 gal drums would be a less expensive chlorine source but, keep them cool and in the shade! LC breaks down more quickly with UV exposure and higher temps and the higher the %, the more quickly it looses it's potency. (you might want to incorporate a below floor level hole to hold the tank(s), kind of like how we used to bury beer kegs on the beach to keep them cold all day :D ).

Covering the pool when not in use is always a good idea - any tarp would work and having 2 people 'fan' or 'sailor' fold the cover every morning makes putting it on and taking it back off a ~3 minute project:cool:

I'd use Waterplug TM to fill the cracks (follow the directions on the can to prepare and apply it- or I'll gladly give you advice).

I wouldn't bother with getting the best paint. The difference, that I've seen/ know about, isn't great enough to make the cost worth it, IMHO. Best bet is to get a paint that can be applied with some moisture remaining on the surface (which top quality epoxy paints can't).

Pump and filter sizing is a question best left to someone else, but I'd suggest at least 2 600 lb sand filters, plumbed in series.

This brings us to chlorine delivery - with the bather load and blown in debris you'll expect, your frequency of backwashing might well allow the use of a BIG tri-chlor feeder (again, I'm not the expert here on this stuff) A peristaltic pump might be the optimal way to introduce the LC to the pool, augmented by manual dosing.

i want to see your pool become a reality and will help as I can.

Please send my regards to all who are with you overseas!!

Luv & Luk!

Ted

One more thing:

You are going to need at least one good FAS-DPD test kit and don't allow ANYONE to use it who isn't trained on it. It's easy to do, but easy to screw up. Regular testing will save you a fortune on chemicals, prevent a nightmare of problems, and keep your pool up and running.

Pool Forum is just the place to learn the correct chemical maintenance. We have a number of stickied thread on just that but it's all really simple--once you understand the trick.

It's all about chlorine levels and pH levels. BUT there are monkey wrenches thrown in.
Stabilizer changes the ideal chlorine levels.
Total Alkalinity is closely connected to the pH.
Calcium hardness helps protect concrete pools, but is useless in vinyl.

But reading is free!

I would rate Ted's guess of two 600lb sand filters probably better than mine of two 300 pounders--Waste is better on that stuff than me by a long shot.

For some reason, when I think of covering this pool, I think of some sort of VERY LARGE AMERICAN FLAG!!!

Following this thread just to see how it all turns out..pics????

(hello to familiar faces from another forum!)

Thank all of you for your replies!
We had one of the "locals" com by yesterday to give us an estimate on both, doing everything, and just providing the materials/equipment. Should hear back from him a in a few days. I'm a little skeptical of their abilities, but will see what they come up with and I will be sure to run it by you guys.

I have had some experience with pools growing up, so I'm not worried about chemistry and such. I'll get to reading to brush up on my knowledge. I think my biggest concerns are under sizing the equipment, and properly sealing the pool. When I say this is a rough concrete pool, I mean rough. It looks like the plywood used to build the forms used to lay the concrete were on the light side. There are a lot of bulges and deformities in the walls. It has been empty for years, and seems to be holding together ok besides several cracks along the bottom that stay wet from seepage up through the concrete. I'll look into the Waterplug, Waste mentioned. I've seen the pool epoxy that looks like play dough, you cut equal amounts to kneed together. I know we had a diver that used this to plug underwater leaks. Waterplug is most likely a more economical product. Due to concrete being so porous, You think the concrete will allow water to seep out with out a good 'sealing'?

Is there a good/easy way to pressure test the piping?


I wish I could post pictures, but due to security reasons I can't. I may see if we can make an exception to policy so you can at least see up enjoying it!

Thanks again for the responses! We are all getting stoked about it!

Robby

Yes, without sealing it, concrete is porous unless it's waterproof concrete, which was developed by the Romans over 2000 years ago--but it was very expensive then and still is today.

If you are not familiar with our techniques of pool chemistry, you really should read up on them. Most of the information out there for many years, and most of the ways most pool owners manage their pools, is wasteful, expensive, and sometimes not as effective. There are "rules" that are simply flat-out wrong, for example, that 3ppm is the maximum safe chlorine level. This is flatly untrue in more ways than you can imagine.

A number of our members, including Ben, the PoolDoc and site owner, are VERY experienced managing large, public pools like yours, but even we moderators and other posters know the chemistry SO well we can do the calculations.

Maybe you are familiar with our B-B-B method and T/A lowering methods, but if not, they may surprise you as they contradict much of what pool stores tell their customers.

Apologize for the slow response. Things got a little busy for me.

I got the estimate from the guys to get the pool up and going. They quoted over $14K for parts and labor. $8K of that was in painting expense. I know epoxy paint isn't cheap, but $8K??? We finally got an itemized estimate and as I suspected they are saying a 60'x40'x5' pool required 22x 20 liters of paints. Well, about all I know is what a 2 ltr bottle of soda looks like. So I went to a conversion program and found 20 liters is ~5 gal. So, 22 x 5 gal = 110 gallons of paint. How they came up with that figure I have no clue. From my calculations, I estimate ~ 30 gallons of paint for 2 coats. Am I close to what you estimate?

All the other prices/equipment look about right. After correcting for the paint 'error', looks like ~ $4,800 for parts. The only question I have is they call for two "500 liter filters". Can anyone convert that to something that makes sense?

I've looked at this thread several times, but have stayed away because I really have to focus on other things. But, this sort of problem is the kind of thing I love to work on, plus I would like to help anybody serving over there. (My first cousin was Petraus's chief of strategic plans a couple of years ago; his son was wounded there, my brother-in-law with the Corps of E spent 6 months at Camp Victory doing EOD design & supervision; a close friend is a chaplain in Kabul and was there during the recent attack, etc. . . . and my 15 year old is planning to be a Marine officer. So . . .)

Anyhow there are several things you probably can do to improve the quality of info you've got:

1. Take pictures and sent them to me -- I'll work out a way to post them here. (send to poolforum AT gmail.com)
- skimmers, main drain
- pool inlets
- piping in pump area
- pool surface details
- pool over all
2. Find out what sort of treatment chemicals are available to you, and at what price. That will determine the 'best' way for you.
3. If you are in a sand area, you can probably use indigenous sand to site-build a vacuum sand filter, with block, concrete waterproofing, and sand -- if that would be cheap for you.
4. Find out what sort of electricity you have (volts, cycles, available amps, hours per day) and the effective cost to you.
5. Describe weather conditions during your building period - you can't do epoxy when it's too hot or too cold.
6. Check all piping inlet and outlets, in the pool and at the pump, and enumerate them, including inside diameter SIZE and piping MATERIAL.
7. Verify that you have piping available that you can connect to what's existing.
8. What is the cost and availability of fill water? It's possible to fill from a sewage canal, but you have to plan for it. Water cost determines how important it is to avoid leaks.
9. Pressure test the piping, and check flow rates to verify usability BEFORE you start work on pool.
10. Identify any code limitations you face.

I know this is a lot of information, but you need it to do it right in the first place. And, it's much much better to find this stuff out now, rather than later. For example, if your effective cost of cyanuric acid (stabilizer) is $50/lb, because it has to be air shipped from the US . . . you need to know that NOW. It could be a disaster to put in a salt system (because salt and electricity were not too expensive) only to discover that it was unusable because leakage required to use more water, salt and $50/lb CYA than you could afford.

PoolDoc

PS. The good epoxy paint is about $80/gallon delivered in the US. A 2 coat finish requires primer at about 100sft /gallon and finish at 140sft / gallon, plus about 1 gallon of solvent ($20) per 5-10 gallons of paint. I'd be happy to see if Kelley Tech might donate the paint, or sell direct. Painting tools are a loss at the end of each painting session -- cleaning epoxied rollers is not practical BUT you need high quality roller covers. Power mixing is ESSENTIAL. You cannot paint when it's rainy, very hot, cold, or windy (ie, dusty). Epoxy is NOT forgiving; you MUST do it right.