Now what!? Fixed the holes, pool collapsed!

:confused: Frustration doesn't even cut it at this point! The backstory is: We moved into a house last year with an ABG pool surrounded by a nice deck. SO happy. With the help of you guys, I figured out how not to get raped by the pool stores trying to get it clean and had much fun last summer. (Okay, after much trouble with our pump, but I think that's all good now.)

So this winter I pull a real dumby, don't do adequate research and emptied the pool thinking I was supposed to. A huge storm comes through, a piece of lawn furniture goes into the pool and puts three large holes in it. Again with your help, I found some boxer glue, got a box of vinyl samples from a nice gentleman at a different pool store and fixed it all up this weekend. Was quite proud of myself and ready to get things going again on the pool.

I started the water in it yesterday afternoon, got in it several times, the vinyl all looked fine, no excessive pulling, wrinkles, etc. It was nearly half full when we went to bed then a couple of hours later husband and I wake up thinking it was thundering. It's not. It's the sides of my pool collapsing. The metal and everything! in 3/4 of the pool, the whole side (with the vinyl still attached in most of the places) is bent over from where the water stops, up. Even the drain thing that leads to the pump is folded over with the wall. So now I have a deck with a large hole in the middle and a pool I have no idea what to do with.

I started to say 'help', but, wow, is there any?! Particularly with us being new(er) to the area, no family and not knowing that many people, all of these projects end up being a two-person job! (Like putting in hardwoods this weekend - ouch I'm so sore!)

What now guys?????

I am no expert, but I would imagine that if you can get to the bottom of the pool from under the deck, with some persistance, and help, you could probably put a new one in there without pulling the deck down.

Here are pictures:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...DSC02258-1.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...DSC02257-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...DSC02256-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...DSC02255-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...1/DSC02257.jpg


Will the whole pool need replaced?

I feel so bad for you. Seeing your pics just made my stomach turn!! Good luck to you.

Is this the effect of having drained the pool or is it what happens when the pool is not designed or manufactured correctly? Is the pool very old?

Just wondering.

It is the water pressure that keeps the sides of an AGP from collapsing, under normal circumstances. Why it waited until you were refilling to collapse is beyond me... perhaps some things became loose or detached over the winter due to being empty, and gave way with the added weight of the water?? Or the liner shrunk/got brittle over the winter and pulled the walls in instead of stretching to meet them...

I would think the problem lies with the emptiness of the pool, rather than its age.

I don't really have a clue, seeing as I don't even have a pool yet!! So sorry, though. I cannot imagine how you feel. :(

I am going to have to say that the liner shrunk and with filling it it pulled the sides in. It happened to me only I caught it as it was doing it on my first pool install here. All I had to do was let some liner loose and I was able to save it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sevver

I am going to have to say that the liner shrunk and with filling it it pulled the sides in. It happened to me only I caught it as it was doing it on my first pool install here. All I had to do was let some liner loose and I was able to save it.

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I figured that too.... looking at the way those walls collapsed, they were most certainly pulled down.

so that presents an interesting question... Is there a method that you should use when filling your pool to avoid this? Obviously you can't watch it every second, so is there something you should do with the liner to make sure you have the proper amount of slack in it, particularly with overlap liners? Also, is this something that you've got any chance of having covered by warranty?


Edit: Newbie, I'm really sorry about your pool. That's terrible.

I did not put the top rails and such on mine until it was like 3/4 full if I remember correctly. It wasn't that I had it perfect right off of the get go, I did that last. I put it in, removed most of the wrinkles, and began to fill it. As it came up to the jet opening I cut it in, then I put the top stuff on, then cut in the skimmer once the water was coming up to it.

The thing is, the liner in the collapsed one shrunk and dried smaller.

Hey newbie, Since normally, once the water is a foot or so up the wall you are safe and out of any danger, before I go into a big long thing about what might have happened and how to fix it I have one question.

From your pics I did not see any signs of metal retaining rods. I enlarged them all and looked closely. Are they still under the top rail or does your pool not have them? They should have kept the wall from pulling out of the upright top plates.

Your photos have made a mess of my evening. I would give anything to have just one day where I could fly to your town and help you put this pool back together. I see pool disasters on a regular basis but not being there to help makes my heart bleed.

Start by locating the metal rods that hold the coping in place and we can go from there. It is all fixable, just not an easy thing.

Later, Dennis

has anything like this ever happened to an IG vinyl pool? I have always heard that the water acts as part of the structure of the pool. With all the cross bracing and cement behind the walls of the pool, you would think the vinyl liner would rip out of its coping track first?

has anyone experienced or seen a vinyl pool fall apart in the same manner?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CanuckPool

has anything like this ever happened to an IG vinyl pool? I have always heard that the water acts as part of the structure of the pool. With all the cross bracing and cement behind the walls of the pool, you would think the vinyl liner would rip out of its coping track first?

has anyone experienced or seen a vinyl pool fall apart in the same manner?

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Vinyl in ground pools (at least the one we used to have) have a cement structure to them. We did the same thing our first year in the house (drained the pool for winter) and when we re-filled it in the spring, our liner had shrunk... It just pulled away from the cement wall. We drained it again, replaced the liner, and that was it.

In short, my answer is... it probably can't happen with an in-ground pool.

So it sounds like it would be more a liner damage that occurs in an IG pool as oppose to the structure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CanuckPool

So it sounds like it would be more a liner damage that occurs in an IG pool as oppose to the structure.

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Correct, at least in my experience, but I'm not a voice of experience in pool construction. It's possible that IG vinyl pools don't always have a cement foundation, particularly in states south of the frost belt.

seems to me liner shrank when pool was dry and empty. when refilled, water pressure from shrunken liner caused walls to collapse inward. liner must have been super tough not to break first though!

question. how is the liner generally attached to an above ground pool?

I am definitely no pro, but liners that i know of are attached either by a small "ziplock" type ridge that fits into a receptacle at the top of the pool ("beaded" liner) or they just lap over the top of the pool before the coping goes on ("overlap" liner). There is alos something called a "J hook" but i am not too sure how that is different from the beaded liner. Hope this helps!

Beaded is a 2 part - the bead locks into a receiver piece - usually used in IG pools - AG pools mainly use j hooks or overlap.
So sorry to see/hear what happened - definitely caused by the liner shrinking, however, I'm also surprised the liner didn't just rip appart.
if your walls aren't severly creased it could be relatively easy to get going again by installing a new liner - about 300.
First thing to do is cut the wall free from the liner and see what condition the wall is in, go from there. Any questions - post back.

I still can't believe the weight of the water did that damage. I had a hard time believing that the bent material was steel... it almost looks like cardboard.

Hmmmm......above ground pools DO come with beaded liners! I have one!~ The bead receiver is just a part that fits under the coping. They make them for above ground pools all the time! They are in every catalog i get! I think this is something they just started doing in the last 5-10 years, but they ARE available for above ground pools now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by farmgirl

Hmmmm......above ground pools DO come with beaded liners! I have one!~ The bead receiver is just a part that fits under the coping. They make them for above ground pools all the time! They are in every catalog i get! I think this is something they just started doing in the last 5-10 years, but they ARE available for above ground pools now.

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I'm pretty sure he wasn't saying they don't exist, just that they're less common in above ground.

oh i was not trying to be a pain.....i just think beaded liners are the best.... i did not realize they were not common on above ground pools. installation of beaded liners is so darned easy! and they are pretty too!:D

Farmgirl - I presume your reply is meant toward my comment, just so you know, I did not say "AG pools DON'T come with...", I said - "usually used in IG pools - AG pools mainly use j hooks or overlap." primarily because it's the most common way of doing a vinyl lined IG pool, and the least common way of doing an AG pool. I would hazzard to guess less that 10% of all AG pools come with a beaded liner, 20% with j hook (this number is increasing fast) and the rest are overlap - primarily due to it's cost savings.

My J hook liner was also really easy to install, the nice thing with J hook and beaded is that your print is nice and square and everything is straight.

Yes, Matt,.....but again, i did not mean to be a pain. I just did not know that beaded liners were that rare in above ground pools. Thanks for sharing that info.

Farmgirl, you are by no means a pain. You were just making an observation. When beaded liners fit correctly you and Matt are both correct, they are very easy to install and very pretty. When they don't fit right, ouch.

I agree 100% with Matt's percentages. That's exactly what we see here in Arizona.

I sure wish we would here back from Newbie. It is so rare for this to happen in this way, I just have a lot of questions. Most of the time the liner will simply slip out of the coping, leaving the wall upright. I have seen this happen under the skimmer where the liner can't slip out, once in a while. I hate unsolved mysteries.

Dennis

Correct me if i am wrong, but can't ANY liner slip out of place? Mine seems Ok, though perhaps not perfect. It is pretty great looking considering DH and I installed the pool ourselves, from the ground up, with very few written instructions to follow. We had NO experience, just made up our minds and did it! I had wanted a pool all my life, and he did all the ground prep for me. Fortunately, he works for a marine construction company, and could borrow all the equipment we needed for free, AND he knew how to use it!!! LOL! But liners age, and do not stay "stable" for their entire life span right? I mean, ground shifts, water shifts, temperature changes.......won't they all affect how the liner "behaves"??? I would think most liner problems would come with old age (ahem!) and shrinking when pool is dry. Am i on the right path here?

Farmgirl, congrats on your pool install, enjoy something you have wanted for so long. Yes, all types of liners can pull loose. Beaded liners are well known for coming out of the bead reciever. Special plastic inserts are made to keep them in place in touble areas. Because the bead reciever is also a strong retaining rod the liner will usually pull out of the bead, or tear just under the bead, before it brings the wall down. A j hook liner is held in place by a good retaining rod also. That might be a tough pull as to what would give first. Overlap liners usually pull free of the wall but some retaining rods have an extra tight grip and the walls will pull down.

The number one lesson learned. There is only one reason to drain a vinyl liner pool, if you are going to change the liner. All vinyl liners will shrink when left empty, even for a day. refilling could be a problem.

Dennis

A very informative thread....sad, but informative. I just recently finished our AG and learned quite a bit, especially about temperature and vinyl. Because the pool face east/west, only 1/2 gets sun and I installed the liner in mid winter. I'll tell you this, "NEVER AGAIN!" It would not stretch and when I did get it to fit...barely, it started to buckle the sides. I waited 3 weeks for a day to exceed 70 degrees and what a difference several degrees made; it stretched like Saran Wrap and no issues what so ever. This was a J-Hook system.

I will ask this however: If for whatever odd reason a person needed to lower their AG water, how low would you say one can do this safely without running into a situation such as liner shrinkage?

Bob-

I will ask this however: If for whatever odd reason a person needed to lower their AG water, how low would you say one can do this safely without running into a situation such as liner shrinkage?

Bob-i wish i could help you with this answer, but i know some of our pool veterans will.....i have never had my water level below that which we drain for winter closing. about 5 inches below the skimmer.

Hi Bob, good question. This has been a good thread and the answer to your question sure seems like it belongs here. Always leave between six inches and a foot of water in your pool. The reasons for draining can be many. Usually they are to patch holes or to clean. These can both be done while still leaving six inces of water in the pool.

The only exception to that would be a pool in it's first season that needed work done under the liner. That could be to apply more grass killer, relevel or other such things. This can be easily done in the first season. Beyond that just keep water in it. If the pool is inground with dirt backfilled against it, never drain until you need to change the liner. At that time do the whole thing in a day or two. These pools love to cave in.

Later, Dennis

Never emptying mine...EVER!!LOL

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Originally Posted by Cal_Newbie

Never emptying mine...EVER!!LOL

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Yeah me either!!! Again....:rolleyes:

So sorry it's taken this long to get back on the thread. Quite honestly, I was just so sick from what happened and afraid of how expensive the fix might be! We just used tax return for some other things needing done on the house before this happened so now we're stuck fixing this as economically as possible! (of course - who doesn't want to right?!)

The upright rails are still standing - the sides just pulled out of the top rails nearly entirely. The top rails are even still attached. We have been able to straighten up the walls - the creases aren't so severe that it damaged them I don't think. I believe when we get water into it, it will finish straightening them.

We want to try to get a new liner, because I agree - I think it shrunk up and pulled the sides down. We were looking at the beaded ones since they look to be easier to install correctly. Is that right? With just the two of us (and one teenage kid) it's going to be tough to put this thing back up (unless I can sprout a few more hands soon!)

I really appreciate the help and kind words. It really does make me sick that the pool has been such an expensive thing to learn how to manage, but I love it anyway. I was excited that I now knew how to care for it with regular bleach and such after spending so much at the pool store in the beginning last year, now this. Such is life, right!

OH, additionally, if anyone has advice on where to get a liner, type (beaded/overlap - gauge) and how do I make sure the cove is okay (that it's not washed away too much) I'd appreciate it. Right now we have a 24' x 48" overlap, sand bottom and cove.

Pam

There are a lot of great places to order liners and many have them on sale for the "pre season" things. We have a J Hook liner and it was so darn easy to install I couldn't believe there wasn't something we missed. It fit just right the first time, almost wrinkle free. Round pools are easier to install liners in than ovals (which is what we have) and it was very easy - not fast, but easy. DH and I did the whole thing ourselves. We had an overlap in our old round pool - also not hard, but the J hook just had a prettier design and seams in it that really made knowing where everything went pretty easy. Basically the J hooks are almost like an overlap in that they hang over the edge but are kind of preformed, solid overlap of appx 4" and are cut to fit the pool size and have a nice secure system that keeps it there. A lot of the J Hook liners are also "dual" type liners so can also be used as a beaded liner that you can remove the top part and slide the bead into the bead receiver. Heavier grade liners are more durable - REALLY cheapos are more likely to be very thin (I couldn't believe some still sold 15mil) Check in the search function - Dennis listed some good liner suppliers in a thread here last year.

Hi Pam, glad to hear you ready to do this thing. For the best price and good service I would check with In the Swim. Go with the 25 gauge, well worth the extra cost.

I seldom recommend beaded liners unless a deck is involved. Since you have a deck it may work best for you. You will have to order bead receivers in order to use a beaded liner. You will also have to take the top rails off one time in order to install the receivers.

You need to measure the pool carefully, width, length and height. When you are installing the beaded liner, take your time and align carefully. Oval pools need the liner to be in perfect alignment. Find the bottom seams, either side to side or end to end. Use your uprights as guides and align the liner perfectly. Once done, insert the bead into the receiver and smooth the bottom. Start adding water as you are finishing the smoothing.

Here is where I make my big decision. If the walls are the correct size and will stretch nicely into place without wrinkles I just let the water fill. Some folks hook up a vacuum to the return opening at this point to help smooth the walls. If the walls
are baggy with way to much liner left over I use the liner like an overlap. You will need to remove the top rails again, pull the liner over the wall, use coping over the liner and the bead receivers over the coping.

Best of luck, Dennis

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hrsdennis

Here is where I make my big decision. If the walls are the correct size and will stretch nicely into place without wrinkles I just let the water fill. Some folks hook up a vacuum to the return opening at this point to help smooth the walls. If the walls
are baggy with way to much liner left over I use the liner like an overlap. You will need to remove the top rails again, pull the liner over the wall, use coping over the liner and the bead receivers over the coping.

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That confused me a little. So basically the beaded liner would end up being an overlap liner, but then why the bead receiver if the top of the liner is now behind the wall as I'm picturing?

Thank you guys - I really appreciate the help!

Pam

Hi, once the liner has been converted to overlap and the coping installed you need retaining rods over the coping. You can use the ones that came with the pool or use the bead receivers. They would both do the same thing, they hold the coping in place and stabilize the wall.

Dennis

Hey guys! I just wanted to thank you all. We ordered a new liner and have it nearly installed. We just need to cut out the area for the skimmer and resecure the top railings. The sides were all wavy and bent, but they straightened up fine and are holding well with the water now. The pool will be open this weekend unless something else happens (the way our luck has been running this week I'm afraid to not put a disclaimer in anything I say!)

Thanks!!

Pam