Backup gathering should this place go poof

I have been concerned like many others about the way Ben vanishes for long periods of time, and wanted to preserve what I could if interest is ever lost in running this forum or it goes down for any reason (still waiting since last year for replacement on a broken kit).

This is hands down the best place on the net for REAL pool information.

I have made a copy-cat site and just wanted to make it known. I am NOT encouraging anyone to leave, I just wanted a backup gathering available.

http://www.pooltalk.info is the web address.
www.pooltalk.info

If the moderators feel this post is out of line, please delete it, I will not attempt to post any information about it agian. I feel like I am doing something wrong, but my intentions are good. I hope everyone doesn't see it as a bad thing. :)

Personally I couldn't care and commend you for doing it. But....Ben does have a copyright notice at the bottom of the pages and I have no idea about the legality of what you're doing.
Al

I too love this place, and I love the info that is passed here. I saved the link and I will put it aside in case the worst happens. I used to be on several boards untill they suddenly disapeared out of no where. On one site the owner died and we only knew it because a few of us passed real names and numbers to each other. When we hadn't heard from her for awhile and the site disapeared, somone called her dh and then found her obit in a NY paper. That was FREAKY!

I guess part of me that is most worried is that I thought in order to have a board someone had to do some work on it when it ran? Isn't there costs involved in boards like this? It would be a shame to loose touch with all of you. I really wish Ben would reappear if only to touch bases for a moment...Kimrst

Technically, the content is owned by the author, though putting it into a public forum at least somewhat puts it into the public domain. So transferring posts from individuals from whom you have received permission should not be a problem at all -- copying without permission *might* be an issue (depends on whether such posts are truly considered to be public domain after posting). Ben's copyright is really for everything he has posted (plus see below).

As for the format of the forum itself, its main topic organization, etc., that is probably also copyright to Ben since he set that up initially, though that starts to get a little dicey as to how unique that is. If it is an exact copy, which is what it looks like was done in this case with PoolTalk, then that's probably not kosher. At least changing the sub-headings or providing some other unique value-add would be advisable.

Anyway, I'm hoping none of this becomes necessary, but I thank you for at least getting something set up. Given all the troubles that Ben had with hackers, I hope your site doesn't experience the same thing. Also, some sort of site where new people can register is needed. I've gotten requests from some other sites for people to talk to folks here (y'all have developed quite a reputation!) and I can't really help them.

[EDIT] Not that it matters much, but I did a little quick research and yes, technically, Internet postings have an implied copyright unless explicitly waived. Remember, however, that the ideas that are expressed are not copyrightable (though they are potentially patentable, depending on what those ideas describe -- i.e. an invention or process, but patenting requires an explicit filing and granting procedure). So the ideas and concepts can be expressed elsewhere in a different way and not violate the copyright. In essence, what is copyrighted is the explicit expression of an idea -- the words themselves, in the case of writing (or the actual visual presentation, in the case of art; or the actual notes at least of the melody, in the case of music). Now that said, it is probably reasonable to simply ask anyone if they object to copying their posts to another forum as that sort of "opt out" is the only practical way to do this. Also, note that unless the copyright is actually registered with the copyright office, then one is not in a good position to litigate violations. Since Internet postings are likely to have minimal "value" in terms of people purchasing the copyrighted words to read, such litigation is likely to lead nowhere. Of course, morality and law do not always intersect. I agree that IF Ben does not come back to this site or otherwise no longer wants to run it, then some form of royalty compensation (for some period of time or limited amount) from the "new" site that used this material would be a decent thing to do (and I wouldn't copy PoolSolutions at all without Ben's permission). [END-EDIT]

Richard

I agree on the copyright issue, I did copy his headings verbatim. Its hard to say if one can hold a copyright on general topics of discussion, and the layout is the default vbulletin software layout. If anyone has suggestions on a good way to reword/rework it make it just as easy or better i'm open to any and all suggestions.

That being said, all it would take is a simple request from Ben and I would change anything he claims to have a copyright on and does not want reproduced. After all, its his absence that prompted it to start with. :)

I did crawl the site for all the posts, I would not even consider doing anything with them unless this site is actually gone... Then we could worry how to handle reposting of old comments. :)

Its spooky that I was thinking about the same thing today (keeping the forum alive should this one crash) after spending 20 minutes "preaching the gospel" to a guy in the pool section of Lowes today. I told him to check this forum out becuase it really is the best place for information concerning pool care around.

I'll support this forum and pray for Ben's well being as long as it's running. Should this one crash, I'll definately support a parrallel effort for the sake of keeping this knowledge alive.

More comments.

My last communication with Ben in early November indicated all was well from a health standpoint. I hope that is still true.

The cost of running a site such as this is directly linked to the bandwidth purchased. Cost is relative. To Bill Gates...way in the noise. To most normal people, Poolforum is very significant I would bet. It all has to do with how easily and quickly people access the site. Just looking at stats for the number of users online etc I would bet Ben pays a good bit of $$$.

As for other costs, the hardware and software are not cheap.

Backups are another issue. We have no idea if anything is being done.

Systems can run for a long time unattended. I believe Ben hosted the old stuff, before VBulletin, on Linux. No idea of the present platform.

I more than anyone because of my long association with poolforum, hope Ben does surface. He has a great and loyal following.

Think positive....it will all be resolved eventually.

I wish I could be of more help and enlightenment but I can't.

Al

There were more member signups then I thought there would be...

I posted an annoucement on my site welcoming new users since this site is not accepting any new registrations.

I am going to answer what I can, but I welcome others to pop in if they get time to see if they can answer a newbies question. I pointed someone at this site and they told me without being a member they were not even able to search the forums, hard to find answers that way...

Also, if there are any moderators on this site that would like moderator status on my board all you need to do is register and send me a message, you are already approved. :)

Falken, thanks for providing the 'back-up' forum! I've signed on, but haven't filled out the personal info, nor set up a sig - I'd like to wait until it's necessary before doing so.

I'm a little worried about a few things:
1) The copyrights that Ben holds - you are probably in violation of the copyright laws with the site you set up, but I believe that sending a notorized letter to Ben, telling him what you've done and requesting info on compensation for using it would be a good start towards negotiation (I'm NOT a lawyer,but making a 'good faith' effort can't hurt) (as was pointed out, the material is in the 'public domain', so duely noted quotes are acceptable - I believe)
2) The 'hackers' that Ben was having trouble with. Ben was apparently having a good bit of trouble with them (whence came the $1 'registration fee', so that he had some real info on anyone registering). It also consumed a fair bit of his time and for 'pool dudes' the pool season is very short on spare time!
3) 'Leaching' the members here to another site that is actively administered and allows new registrations (which currently is not available here). I paid for a 'lifetime membership' here and while the $ spent means little to me, MY first loyalty is going to be to Ben and this site! This is to say; when I work 10+ hrs/ day and come home and have ~ 1 hr to 'play' on the computer, this forum will be the first, and probably only, site I check (as long as this site is up and running). However, if you can 'work it out' with Ben, perhaps your site would make an excellent addition to the Poolforum (remove Ben's need to check out the new registrees and provide a way for 'newbies' to partake of the Poolforum, by proxy)
4) If Richard is right (like it'd be the first time :D ) about the individual poster's rights to what they've said, getting the permission to reproduce their quotes from each and every one of them is a Hurculean task (FWIW - I summarily and without equivocation do hereby grant anyone the right to quote (or otherwise use) what I've said/ posted on this forum :D )

I don't know 'jack' about hosting nor running a website, but am willing to keep the info here alive (if you need some financial support, you have my e-address on your 'splinter site'). If someone had done a similar thing last year,(before the 'crash') a lot of good info and advice would still be available, and I truely believe in advancing the 'sum of human knowledge'.

(it took me ~ 2 hrs to compose this, and I'm sure I forgot to add some things that were in the 'mental draft', please forgive my inadiquacy)

There's no reason any cannot open a pool site anywhere anytime.

But....

I would forget about porting over posts from PoolForum. You are asking for trouble. But don't worry, if PoolForum goes down and people move over there, very similar information will very quickly appear.

I also would change things to be organized as YOU want them, not a Ben wants them. Its look should reflect you, not Ben. Forums and how they are grouped should reflect what works for you. Not that there's anything wrong with it here, but if you have forum rarely used, then roll it into another. You can always open it again. I would also drop ALL references to PoolForum.com so it doesn't look like you are "skimming" members.

I learned what I know here, from Ben et al, so this is my preferred place to be. If it dies, somehow, that's another story.

It's also very flattering that you are offering us moderators the opportunity to moderate for you as well. But, for now, I must decline your generous offer. As long as PoolForum is running, I'm here. And, if the situation here changes, you may already have all the mods you need.

Other pool sites have posted their address here from time to time, but they are usually connected to a product or a business. And, unless they follow the rules, they then get banned. I don't what that to happen to you since you are building a backup site.

waste,

I'll address these items:
1) I do need to change the headings away from Ben's work, that is something i'm in the process of working on. He in no way holds a copyright for a pool discussion forum, nor or the sections original work, except for his subcomments under the forum titles.

2) While I was trying to avoid making this comment, I will go ahead and make it known. I am network admin and security for the local DSL provider, so i'm use to dealing with hackers... great.. here they come! :)

3) I'm not trying to take anyone away from Ben or what they may have paid for. I will *not* charge one cent for any type of registration, nor will I place a single ad on the site for any reason. I have no interest in making money, and my costs are slim to none considering my line of work.

4) Just as google/yahoo/every other search engine out there can crawl the site and cache all work in a searchable form, I would have the same right. That being said, I have no intention of doing so unless this site goes belly up and enough of the members request it. I would then remove someones posts upon request (more than google will do for you)

All of that being said, if Ben asks me to stop, chances are I will. If Ben would like me to take over the site and make him a full administrator I also have no problem with that at all!

My system is backed up nightly, and monthly a copy is taken off-site. I assume the last thing Ben has time for is system maintenance.

CarlD,

I agree 100% with everything you said.

I copied the organization because I wanted to preserve what was here. The interest in it is more than I expected, it needs changed around some, and it will be soon.

As I said, you will see no request for money and no ads for any product anywhere on my site, and I will not permit anyone pushing a product or service on the forums either.

If someone wants to stay just here, great. If someone wants to wander over to help newbies until and unless Ben reopens registration, that is great too.

I hope Ben comes back and accepts my offer to run the primary site, he is welcome to full admin rights. If he doesn't have to mess with the technical aspect he may even have more time to share his knowledge. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CarlD

There's no reason any cannot open a pool site anywhere anytime.

But....

I would forget about porting over posts from PoolForum. You are asking for trouble. But don't worry, if PoolForum goes down and people move over there, very similar information will very quickly appear.

I also would change things to be organized as YOU want them, not a Ben wants them. Its look should reflect you, not Ben. Forums and how they are grouped should reflect what works for you. Not that there's anything wrong with it here, but if you have forum rarely used, then roll it into another. You can always open it again. I would also drop ALL references to PoolForum.com so it doesn't look like you are "skimming" members.

I learned what I know here, from Ben et al, so this is my preferred place to be. If it dies, somehow, that's another story.

It's also very flattering that you are offering us moderators the opportunity to moderate for you as well. But, for now, I must decline your generous offer. As long as PoolForum is running, I'm here. And, if the situation here changes, you may already have all the mods you need.

Other pool sites have posted their address here from time to time, but they are usually connected to a product or a business. And, unless they follow the rules, they then get banned. I don't what that to happen to you since you are building a backup site.

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Wow...I hardly come down this far to read the topics. Falken, I think it's a great idea what you've done and are willing to contribute so much effort into doing this. As waste has done, I too give you complete authority and permission to use any posts I have contributed to this site, for your site. I will add yours to my Favorites listings.

Ben, Prayers are with you man! Let us know how we can help.

Back before the old board crashed, and when I was building my pool, there was a builder on here (I believe he was a moderator as well), from atlantis pool company, and I belive his name was Kelly. He provided many of us with a great deal of help and I don't believe he has joined back up. If either of the "new" boards work out, maybe a quick email to him would be worth while..

Greg


Edit: A quick google search turned up his site: http://www.atlantispoolco.com/

In hopes that this will 'fluff' the thread: for a week now I've been unable to access the 'pooltalk' site... what gives??? I've had a little computer trouble of late, but all my other sites are there.

Is anyone else having difficulty reaching www.pooltalk.info or is it just me?

It's not just you. I've been getting "Database Error" with some other info for a few days at least.

I don't bother anymore - I stick with this one and TFP, kind of the "home away from home" site for me.

I hadn't tried to access the pooltalk site for a long time, but when I did a few minutes ago, it worked just fine. Maybe he was just doing some site maintenance or something.