2 speed pump or not? Also the great DE debate!

I was wondering if you guys could weigh in on a pump question/concern. I did cross post this in the building forum as well. I talked with by PB them about getting a 2 speed pump and they seemed reluctant but will do it if I want to. I need to give them an answer real soon.

I wanted to do this so I could run it on low at night for chlorine generation, etc. The pump they have spec'ed is a 2HP and that is the other reason I want a 2 speed.

They also have a 1.5-2HP spec'ed for the water features. I asked about doing a 2 speed on that as well to run the waterfall at a lower rate as opposed to reducing flow via the valve. They said the way it will be set up is the valve will have a bypass so it will not put backpressure on the pump. I also have 2 of the foam jet bubblers from crystal fountains and I need a good amount of GPM for those. What would you do in this situation? They use all sta-rite max-e-pro pumps so it would be the 2 speed sta-rite controller by either a Pentair EasyTouch or Jandy RS8 (I still
have not made up my mind).

The last question is I am 99% set on getting the DE filter. They use the sta-rite system 3 modular DE so I can always switch to cart if I want to. I chose the DE becuase I want the clearest water. They are using the 60 sqft so I assume it won't have to be cleaned very often (few times a season).

I really appreciate any help on this!

Steve

Why did they spec the main pump at 2 HP? The only reason I would go with a 2 HP main pump is because the pool has a spa that shares the pump. Is this the case? Also, what size is the pool? Depending on the spa and pool sizes, there are probably several options. 2 speed pump is one option but you could also go with separate pumps for the spa and pool which may be better for larger pools. Key parameters for pump decisions are:

Pool Size (gallons)
Spa and number of Jets
Piping size and number of pool to pad runs

As for the water features, I decided against them for my pool. You may be aware of this already but the water features combined with a SWG usually means the pool will continuously have rapidly rising PH levels. Be prepared to have a lot of acid on hand. Mine rises fairly quickly even without the water features (1qt/week in summer). Also, water features will increase evaporation rates so be prepared for a large water bill as well. Water features are great eye candy but they come at a cost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mas985

Why did they spec the main pump at 2 HP? The only reason I would go with a 2 HP main pump is because the pool has a spa that shares the pump. Is this the case? Also, what size is the pool? Depending on the spa and pool sizes, there are probably several options. 2 speed pump is one option but you could also go with separate pumps for the spa and pool which may be better for larger pools. Key parameters for pump decisions are:

Pool Size (gallons)
Spa and number of Jets
Piping size and number of pool to pad runs

As for the water features, I decided against them for my pool. You may be aware of this already but the water features combined with a SWG usually means the pool will continuously have rapidly rising PH levels. Be prepared to have a lot of acid on hand. Mine rises fairly quickly even without the water features (1qt/week in summer). Also, water features will increase evaporation rates so be prepared for a large water bill as well. Water features are great eye candy but they come at a cost.

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Sorry, all that stuff was in my main thread under the construction forum. The spec's are:

Pool size - ~20,000
Spa size - 7.5' with 6 jets
Piping size is 2" for pool and 2.5" for spa. I am not sure what you mean by number of runs to the pad but below is the full specs for piping they gave me.

1. PVC Schedule 40
2. CPVC at pump connections
3. Jandy never lube valves
4. Fill line (1) ¾” Sch. 40 Under the Coping w/Valve & Vac Breaker
5. Main drain: Pool - Paramount MDX Main Drain Assembly
6. Spa - Paramount MDX Main Drain Assembly
7. Pool Return inlets: Per Paramount PCC2000
8. Spa Jets: Six (6) w/ Directional Eyeballs
9. Spa/Commons: Two (2) w/ Directional Eyeballs
10. Skimmers: Two (2) Pentair Bermuda w/Equalizer Lines

Note: Standard plumbing package includes 2” direct piping from each skimmer and main drain assembly to the equipment with independent valves. Spas have 2.5” return and suction piping.

Here is a picture of the final layout.

http://www.lanability.com/images/poolfinal.jpg

The water features are already a done deal so I will make sure to keep an eye on my PH levels. Let me know what you think. Thanks!

Steve

What I mean by pool to pad runs are separate pipes from the main drain to the pad and skimmer to the pad or does he combine the runs at the pool and bring only one pipe back to the pad? Same for the return side, single pipe from pad to pool or multiple pipes?

Anyway, your pool size and plumbing is similar to mine. I went with separate pumps for the pool and spa (jets). This way you can have the jets going while the pool is in circulation if required. I have solar so it is nice to heat the spa up with the solar and then switch the circulation back to the pool to continue heating while I just use the jets on the spa. Also, this allows you to size the pump for just circulation and the spa just for the jets. You could go with a 3/4 single speed and save a bundle on electricity costs. A 2 speed 3/4 HP would save even more. So in summary, here is what I see as your options:

2 Speed 2 HP pump for both spa and pool - Saves some in electricity

OR

3/4 HP pump for pool and 2 HP pump for spa jets - Save some in electricity but adds circulation flexibility.

OR

2 speed 3/4 HP pump for pool and 2 HP pump for spa jets - Saves even more in electricity and maintains flexibility.

OR

Intelliflow pump for most flexibility - Saves most in electricity but without separate spa jet pump although you could add that too $$$$.

The last option is probably not much more than the second to last option and would give you multiple speeds for the spa jets as well.

There are pros and cons for each option and really depends on what you are looking for.

Just a caution on the Starite system 3 filters. Check the cost of replacement media for it! (Especially the modular [cartridge element] and modular DE [DE/cartridge element]. The system 3 vertical grid DE does not have quite as much filter area as the DE/modular combo but it is a plain DE filter and will be probably more cost effective!) You might find the replacement media to be VERY expensive compared to some comparable filters!
Personally, I like Pentair branded filters. They use a standard type of filter media and replacements are available from most of the third party manufacturers! (but stay away from the Clean and Clear Plus if you go with cartridge, stick to a single cartridge unit!) Pentiar DE filters are excellent also and have a more standard design.
(Starite is owned by Pentair, btw!)

I wholeheartedly agree with waterbear's comments on the cost of StaRite's System 3 cartridges!!!

I read about some cartridge owners having a spare set so you could just switch the sets at cleaning time and take your time cleaning the ones you took out. Sounded like a good plan to me, especially if they needed soaking. Then, last summer, I looked at several websites to price the replacement filter elements and got sticker shock! :eek: The system has 2 cartridges. The smaller one ran from $92.95 to $149.99, depending on the site and the larger one ran from $183.95 to $239.99. That's $276.90 to $389.98 per set!!!

I'm going with just my original set for now and trying to take VERY good care of it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dawndenise

I wholeheartedly agree with waterbear's comments on the cost of StaRite's System 3 cartridges!!!

I read about some cartridge owners having a spare set so you could just switch the sets at cleaning time and take your time cleaning the ones you took out. Sounded like a good plan to me, especially if they needed soaking. Then, last summer, I looked at several websites to price the replacement filter elements and got sticker shock! :eek: The system has 2 cartridges. The smaller one ran from $92.95 to $149.99, depending on the site and the larger one ran from $183.95 to $239.99. That's $276.90 to $389.98 per set!!!

I'm going with just my original set for now and trying to take VERY good care of it...

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That is quite a bit of money! I will make sure to take good care of my filter. Looks like the DE replacement is about $250.00. Thanks!

Steve

A 2 speed pump is great for affordable day in and day out circulation while still having a high speed for the spa and the pool sweep.
I really don't recommend them on water features because they gobble up relay spaces.

On your DE -vs- multi cartridge filter question I'd suggest the FNS 60 or Clean and Clear 520 over the StaRite product. Those StaRite filters are indeed great but don't use industry standard grids or replacement elements.

See ya,
Kelly

Ok, here's my take.

First: If you can afford it a 2 speed filter is ALWAYS the way to go. Mine has a simple Hi-Lo switch on the back of the motor. You can ALWAYS run the pump at full speed should you not be happy with lo. But lo is quieter and cheaper.

Second: PBs and pool salesmen LOVE to sell oversized pumps. Go to PoolSolutions.com and read the tip on "The bigger Pump scam". I have 20,000 gal rectangular A/G with a deep end and I use a 1 hp Hayward SuperPump 2 speed--with solar panel, and run it at low speed 95% of the time. Other brands make 3/4 hp 2 speeds that spec out just as good as the Hayward.

Third: a properly sized and maintained filter of ANY type can keep your water clear. PBs love carts--I think they must be high margin, they are an easy install, and for most of the first season they don't need to be cleaned. IF you can figure out how to clean them without making it a half-day soaking-wet job you may be delighted with them.

For DE, they do a WONDERFUL job, but I suspect the consensus here is that an ordinary one, sized properly, will do just as well as a gadgety one, and will be far cheaper to maintain.

You weren't even interested in sand but sand can also perform far better than they lead you to believe. If your sand filter is slightly oversized (mine is) at low speed on your pump in cleans better. As the sand gets older and dirtier, it also filters better. Finally, adding a little DE powder after you back wash will down-right POLISH your water--and I've gone 2 seasons already on an $8. box of DE. You cannot add DE to a cartridge. (there is a fiber substitute for DE that you can use in a cartridge).

You should also use "skimmer socks" in your skimmer with any filter. They go in like a Mr. Coffee filter and hook over it. I find they last about a month and reduce the load on the filter by stopping stuff at the skimmer. Skimmer socks are usually about 3 for $5 or 4 for $10 depending on the brand and the store. Some people use old panty hose but I suspect it doesn't filter nearly as well.

But I think the advice you've gotten here on 2 speed pumps and pump sizing before I chimed in was just right on the money. It's your pool, not the pool builder's.

Since it looks like a concrete/shotcrete/tile/plaster pool, you may want to use Tri-Chlor pucks early on. They add acid and stabilizer(CYA) which you will need. When CYA hits your target level (generally max 50ppm) you'll stop using the pucks.

Wow, great info. I really appreciate all the help on this. Thanks!

Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by huskyrider

A 2 speed pump is great for affordable day in and day out circulation while still having a high speed for the spa and the pool sweep.
I really don't recommend them on water features because they gobble up relay spaces.

On your DE -vs- multi cartridge filter question I'd suggest the FNS 60 or Clean and Clear 520 over the StaRite product. Those StaRite filters are indeed great but don't use industry standard grids or replacement elements.

See ya,
Kelly

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Kelly, the Clean and Clear plus 520 by Pentair is a 4 cartridge unit. This are a horror to clean and, IMHO, is WAY oversized for a 20k pool! The Clean and Clear 150 has exaxtly the same residential flow rate and turnover capacity and just uses one larger cartridge so it makes maintenance much easier and cartrdge replacement expense much lower. Granted the 150 only has 150 sq in of filter area compared to the 520 sq in of the plus model and only about 1/3 the commercial flow rate but it should be more than adequite for this installation, if not oversized! (a good idea with cartridge filters). If the commercial flow rate is what you are basing it on the Clean and Clear 200 has a commercial flow rate of 75 gpm and all three of this filters have a manufacturer's turnover rate of 48 k gallons in 8 hours so this would be over 2 times the pool volume.
The Pentair FNS series DE filters are excellent, IMHO but do you really think a pool of this size needs the 60 sq in filter? Based on turnover capacity I would think the FNS 48 would be more than adequite.
Evan
Just my 2 cents!

Just as two lawyers interpret a law differently so do pool professionals.

The larger filter will easily go a full swim season before it needs cleaning and is rated for a much higher flow rate than one with a third of the swept area.
I'm not saying that the 150 isn't adequate because it is. I use larger filters so the buyer can clean in April and October. IMO, the 150 owner will be cleaning much more often than the 520's owner. I'd rather clean more elements less times than one element more times.
What I've found is that most buyers completely forget about their filters. When they call me back every time the filter gets dirty it's assumed that I'll clean it for free until the end of the first year. I find it easier to pay more for the bigger filter knowing it'll go years without cleaning if necessary.
I've seen lackadaisical homeowners who'll go 3 or more years without cleaning their filter. These large multi-cart filters will circulate even with more dirt in them than you can put in a full size wheelbarrow. I've seen it firsthand on many occasions.

I'm not trying to imply that all homeowners are the same, I'm going by what I've seen year in and year out. I've had plenty of homeowners who'd just assume not clean and simply pay to have the elements cleaned or replaced. For those the larger filter makes perfect sense. You don't have to pay for filter cleans as often. In our area a filter cleaning costs the same whether it's one element or 4 elements. If I were in the service and repair business in addition to pool construction I'd install smaller filters and cross my fingers that I get the call every time the element gets dirty and needs cleaning.

See ya,
Kelly

AH!!!! So THAT'S why PBs love to install cartridge filters! Thanks, Kelly!

They take on the nasty messy job of cleaning them for a fee! I never knew that--DE and Sand filters don't require such a service. That's clever thinking.

DE filters do need screens or fingers maintained, and some people pay for that once a season. Others do it themselves. Not being an expert on DE I don't know the details.

Sand filters only require back-washing, and that's no effort at all. There's no way I'd pay anyone (other than my kid's allowance) to do THAT for me!

But VERY few cart owners have mastered how to clean them easily...now I know that they pay the PB/Pool Service a fee to clean them!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CarlD

AH!!!! So THAT'S why PBs love to install cartridge filters! Thanks, Kelly!

They take on the nasty messy job of cleaning them for a fee! I never knew that--DE and Sand filters don't require such a service.

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Here's another reason, ease of installation due to no backwash line.

I disagree on the second sentence, DE filters should also be disassembled and cleaned in April and October. I do agree completely with your first reply to this thread, as a sand filter gets dirty it cleans better.
The only time I suggest changing sand is when a pool owner lets his pool go to pot and it's totally green and won't come back with nuking, filtering, and backwashing.

see ya,
Kelly

Earlier on I had mentioned that I thought Carts were preferred by PBs in part because of ease of installation.

I am no expert on DE filters so I'll certainly yield to your superior experience and that of other owners.

Your reasons for changing sand are pretty much the same as mine--when you have to, but not before.

But if the filter requires repair and the sand removed to make the repair, I would be leery of re-using the sand. I suppose it could be OK, but new sand is pretty cheap--200 lbs is between $20 and $40.

I just want to add another reason that cartridge filters are installed by PBs. In some cases, it is that they are required to or strongly recommended to by local ordinances. Where I live, it is strongly recommended that any new pool use a cartridge filter, not DE nor sand. I thought it was required, but it's actually just that use of backwashing filters is strongly discouraged. The reason is due to water restrictions. Though most years we do not have drought, about every 10 years or so we do and the county encourages use of water-wise landscaping, etc.

My PB put in an oversized 4-cartridge filter when my pool could have filtered its volume with a smaller 1-cartridge filter, but I'm glad he did. As Kelly points out, the filter needs far less frequent cleaning. Because I have a pool cover to keep out most leaves and other junk, I can get away with cleaning once a year and I see no increase (or less than 1 psi increase) in pressure over that time (I could probably go for longer than a year without cleaning if I had to). I do a quick rinse with a hose (and manually remove some cedar needles that are clumped) and take the cartridges down to my local pool store for them to soak clean (it costs me around $15 per filter for them to do the cleaning, but I don't mind since it's just once a year). For cost-conscience users, the garbage can soak with dishwashing detergent sounds quite effective. I usually do this just before the start of the swim season when the water is still cold so that I can go a day without running the pump while the filters are getting cleaned.

Richard

I can't argue with local ordinances. But I suspect most people trying to clean them with a garden hose going for a couple of hours would easily match back-washing in water use.:eek:

I don't have to back-wash much--I use the skimmer socks and a robotic cleaner that filters the as well as a DE filter (see the problems I had with my Dolphin).

It sounds like a plastic garbage can devoted to cartridge soaking is a great way to go--but I'm sticking with my sand filter. We have water restrictions due to several years of drought that were never lifted, but pool filters weren't affected.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CarlD

I can't argue with local ordinances. But I suspect most people trying to clean them with a garden hose going for a couple of hours would easily match back-washing in water use.:eek:

A couple of hours? it only takes a few minutes. I have a Clean and Clear 150 on my pool and I clean it monthly (with pool open year long and a 9-10 month swim season). I don't need to since I never have any increase in pressure and could probably go about 8 months to a year, if not longer) before I got an 8 psi increase. I have gone as long as 3 months between cleanings and had no pressure increase but cleaning the cart did become more of a chore so I have learned the hard way that, just like with your pool water, a little bit of preventive montly care on your cart will make the maintenance MUCH easier!!!!!!! Carl, You always tell people to stay ahead of their water. Well, it makes just as much sense to stay ahead of your cartridge!!!!!!! It takes me about 15 minutes to pop the filter open, carry the cart to the front of the house and hose it off on the driveway, hose it off, then carry it back. (actually I have 2 carts so I pop the clean one in first and reassemble the filter and clean out the pump basket. The whole process is very quick! Now if I had 4 carts to deal with such as in the filter that Huskyrider is suggesting then I would probably wait for year or more before I attempted to clean it or I would call someone in to do it!!!!!!!)

It sounds like a plastic garbage can devoted to cartridge soaking is a great way to go
and really only necessary once a year or at best twice a year if the cart is hosed off on a regular basis!
--but I'm sticking with my sand filter. We have water restrictions due to several years of drought that were never lifted, but pool filters weren't affected.

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BTW, I agree with Huskeyrider that DE filters are better off being broken down and cleaned and not backwashed, as I have often stated here in the forum!

Evan,
Since I'm not a cartridge filter owner, I have to yield to your superior experience. I've just read all the horror stories.

I've said it before and I'll probably have to say it again: Those owners who figure out the secrets of how to maintain their cartridge filters swear by them. But other owners generally swear AT them. Or, as I just found out, shell out mucho dinero to the PB/Pool Services to clean them for them.

Carl

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chem geek

I just want to add another reason that cartridge filters are installed by PBs. In some cases, it is that they are required to or strongly recommended to by local ordinances. Where I live, it is strongly recommended that any new pool use a cartridge filter, not DE nor sand. I thought it was required, but it's actually just that use of backwashing filters is strongly discouraged. The reason is due to water restrictions. Though most years we do not have drought, about every 10 years or so we do and the county encourages use of water-wise landscaping, etc.

My PB put in an oversized 4-cartridge filter when my pool could have filtered its volume with a smaller 1-cartridge filter, but I'm glad he did. As Kelly points out, the filter needs far less frequent cleaning. Because I have a pool cover to keep out most leaves and other junk, I can get away with cleaning once a year and I see no increase (or less than 1 psi increase) in pressure over that time (I could probably go for longer than a year without cleaning if I had to). I do a quick rinse with a hose (and manually remove some cedar needles that are clumped) and take the cartridges down to my local pool store for them to soak clean (it costs me around $15 per filter for them to do the cleaning, but I don't mind since it's just once a year). For cost-conscience users, the garbage can soak with dishwashing detergent sounds quite effective. I usually do this just before the start of the swim season when the water is still cold so that I can go a day without running the pump while the filters are getting cleaned.

Richard

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Where I'm at, the city requires separation tanks for DE or Sand which pretty much discouraged me from that since it I would have to clean the tank which is not much different then the cartridges.
I also supersized my filter and could go many years without cleaning it although I usually clean it at least once a year and I don't see any pressure rise at all. It takes less than an hour to clean four large cartridges and since I use high pressure hose, the flow rates are not that great so I am sure that I am using way less water than I would if I needed to backwash.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mas985

It takes less than an hour to clean four large cartridges

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Pretty much in line with my 15 minutes for one!

Hi all - on the topic of 2-speed pumps, I'm debating replacing my 1-speed Northstar with a 2-speed pump, but wasn't sure if it would work with my plumbing.

I have a spa with spillover and weeping wall plumbed to the pump. The Polaris has its own booster pump. I don't vacuum, or at least, have never vacuumed in the year that I've owned the pool. If I switched to a 2-speed, will I have to run at high-speed just to get the weeping wall and spillover to work? Or do I just adjust the spillover and weeping wall valves to allow more water through when running in low-speed?

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joelq

Hi all - on the topic of 2-speed pumps, I'm debating replacing my 1-speed Northstar with a 2-speed pump, but wasn't sure if it would work with my plumbing.

I have a spa with spillover and weeping wall plumbed to the pump. The Polaris has its own booster pump. I don't vacuum, or at least, have never vacuumed in the year that I've owned the pool. If I switched to a 2-speed, will I have to run at high-speed just to get the weeping wall and spillover to work? Or do I just adjust the spillover and weeping wall valves to allow more water through when running in low-speed?

Thanks!

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Joelq, you probably will get more responses if you will start a new thread with this question instead of joining it to another thread....this thread is already 3 pages long and has gone from pumps to the DE/Cartridge debate. Try reposting in a new thread.

Janet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CarlD

Ok, here's my take.

If your sand filter is slightly oversized (mine is) at low speed on your pump in cleans better. As the sand gets older and dirtier, it also filters better. Finally, adding a little DE powder after you back wash will down-right POLISH your water--and I've gone 2 seasons already on an $8. box of DE. .

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VERY Interesting, and helpful! see my thread on "Pentair pump filter to replace Hayward" Gives me more food for thought......