help newbie with SWG in winter

hi, I bought a home this past summer with Autoclear Plus (polaris) SWG, in -ground vinyl liner. After much dismay all winter as to why I was not producing chlorine ( no help from pool store guy), I called the Polaris tech line and they told me it will shut down at about 55 degrees. ok I get that. So what do I do now to keep chlorine up? Can I use those puck chlorine things you put in the skimmer every few days? or is that a no no? I have never used the bleach thing I read about in here cuz the SWG took are of all my chlorine needs this summer. What chlorine level do I want to keep it at for the winter? I have shocked it a few times per pool guy advice but I get zero chlorine result after a few days ( of course). Please give me specific intrsuctions as to how I should address this chlorine issue; I am new and a little dense LOL)

PS: I just cleaned the cell, so that is not the problem I hope.

PSS> I want to add that my stabilizer level is reading low, but the pool guy said don't worry about it until swimming season, is he correct???

Thank you in advance for your help.

Sharon in New orleans

Sharon,

The amount of chlorine you need without the SWG running is the same as you would need if you were just using bleach and didn't have the SWG and these amounts may be found in Ben's Best Guess CYA chart. If you are losing chlorine quickly, then this may be due to your low CYA if your pool is exposed to sunlight. Just because it's winter doesn't mean the sun doesn't ever shine (especially if you're lucky). Chlorine will still get used up in the winter, but it lasts longer due to the less strong (lower in the sky) and less frequent sunlight.

I suggest getting your CYA level up to at least 30 ppm and then you could probably get away with the 3 ppm "Min" column number for Free Chlorine (FC) level since your water temperatures are cold. Just use ordinary unscented bleach to raise the FC level. If you do need to increase your CYA, using the Trichlor pucks is probably the easiest way to do that as this will provide both CYA and FC for you, but with the cold temps the tabs will be slow to dissolve. You'll also have to add base (such as Borax) to compensate for the drop in pH that will come from using the Trichlor tabs. You could instead use Washing Soda (Sodium Carbonate -- same stuff in pH Up) to raise the pH since you'll probably want a higher Total Alkalinity (TA) level when you are using the pucks (say, closer to 120 ppm instead of the 80 ppm you may be at now).

I am a bit surprised that your chlorine level went away so quickly with the water being so cold and the sun in a low winter position (and fewer hours of daylight, etc.). Perhaps you actually have high chlorine levels and don't know it. What kind of chlorine test kit are you using? Is it the OTO test that has a yellow color? Or is it the DPD test that has a pink/red color? Or is it the FAS-DPD test that counts drops until the pink/red disappears? You can dilute your pool water with distilled (or bottled, but not tap) water and retest to see if it shows a chlorine level.

If you give us a complete set of water chemistry parameters, we can tell you what you need to do. That would include pH, Total Alkalinity (TA), Calcium Hardness (CH), Cyanuric Acid (CYA). It sounds like you may not have a good test kit and should consider a Taylor K-2006 or similar kit as recommended on this forum.

By the way, if you had a pool cover, then that would cut down the loss of chlorine to almost nothing.

Richard

Thank you Richard. This whole thing has me quite perplexed. My pool store guy says he has the exact same SWG I do, and that he has never heard of it cutting off at 55 degrees; and in fact his produces chlorine all winter ( scratching my head on that one).

I am embarrassed to admit, that up to this point I have no real test kit. I have been using the dip sticks , just as a general guide for me, and letting the pool guy do the weekly testing with his droppers and stuff for me. I am on a rapid learning curve as I have only owned this pool since July, and figuring out stuff as I go. Thank goodness for finding this forum to help me out.

I am a little confused by your question as to whether I may in fact in have high chlorine. Would I and my pool guy not be getting a reading if it were high?

I thought i might try this:

run my pool heater for a day or so to get the water temp up and see if the SWG kicks in at that point. Then I would at least know if it is operational or not. Is that a good idea?

I have to admit I am a bit frustrated by this way of chlorinating. Seems to me the reason to get a SWG is to have low maintenance for the owner; what is the point if I have to manually balance the pool half of the year anyway?

And please do not get me started on my in ground liner woes ( that is a whole other story).

But this is what I inherited, and I do love my pool, so I just have to learn how to care for it properly.

thank you for any continued advice; it is much appreciated!

Sharon

Sharon,

Most SWG controllers will automatically shut off with low temps. Mine does at 50 degrees. The pool store guy probably never noticed that his automatically shut off during the winter.

When mine shuts off, I usually don't bother adding chlorine since algae has never been a problem for me below 50 degrees. Your situation may be different but I suspect that you will not need much chlorine if any at all for temps below 55.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mas985

Sharon,


When mine shuts off, I usually don't bother adding chlorine since algae has never been a problem for me below 50 degrees. Your situation may be different but I suspect that you will not need much chlorine if any at all for temps below 55.

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Ok, so just to clarify; you let your pool go with zero chlorine over the winter with no problems? do you keep Ph and Ca etc in balance during winter months?

thank you for replying!

Just ignore my question about the chlorine being too high and not showing up on the test. That's probably not happening if the pool guy was doing the test. I was just concerned if you 1) added more chlorine than you thought you did and 2) bleached out the test you made. Since that's not what happened, ignore my question.

I don't think you need to run your heater to see if the SWG goes back on. The shutting down of the SWG at colder temps is normal (as Mark said above).

As for what to do in the winter, you have essentially two choices. You can add bleach, probably not more than a large dose once a week since it SHOULD last that long during the winter (with a cover it would last MUCH longer). Or you can not add any chlorine and risk opening your pool next season to algae -- which is just a risk and not a certainty. There are pictures of algae under ice somewhere on this forum so cold temps do not guarantee that algae will not grow, but it is far less likely (usually algae doesn't grow below 50 though some users reported small growth in the 40's). If you get algae, then you'll need to kill it at the start of the season as seen in this post which shows opening in the spring with algae and using bleach alone to kill the algae in less than a week. With added chlorine bleach AND an SWG running 24/7 (when killing the algae), it should get killed faster, possibly in half the time or less. Oh yes, there's a third alternative and that would be to not add bleach regularly, but just add a large dose of PolyQuat 60 algicide which will help to inhibit algae growth. It might not last the winter, but would certainly help.

As far as thinking that an SWG means you don't have to do any maintenance, that simply is not true. You still need to check your pool water chemistry. During summer use, the chlorine demand changes throughout the year based on bather load and sunlight so you have to test chlorine and adjust your SWG output accordingly. Once your SWG is set so that the chlorine level is relatively stable, you won't have to check it as often, but you still have to check it at least weekly. You probably have to check your water more frequently than that because the pH will rise and you'll need to add acid to compensate and that may be more than once a week. Your pool sides and surfaces still need brushing, either manually or by a pool sweep that climbs walls (well, LIGHT brushing for your vinyl liner and I'm not sure automated pool sweeps do that well with vinyl). Maintenance simply does not go away with an SWG -- only the regular daily or every other day addition of chlorine goes away, that's all (though that's a lot!). During the winter things are easier and yes, you probably don't need to adjust most chemistry parameters, but if your SWG comes back on for some reason, you'll need to check chlorine and pH, at least.

My own pool (with no SWG) has a cover on it and I only have to add chlorine about once a month during the winter and could even just dump more chlorine in and go two months without checking if I had to. All other water chemistry parameters (pH, TA, CH, CYA) are rock solid and do not change at all over time (except CYA might drop -- I'm checking on that this winter). My water temps are between 45 and 50. That's why I was surprised that your chlorine didn't last just a few days after "shocking" which implies a high chlorine level when you shocked. That is VERY unusual in the winter time, even without a cover.

Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by szcakes

Ok, so just to clarify; you let your pool go with zero chlorine over the winter with no problems? do you keep Ph and Ca etc in balance during winter months?

thank you for replying!

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Yes, the last two months, my pool has had zero chlorine in it. However, not every pool will be able to do this. It really depends on how much stuff drops in the pool over winter but algae had very difficult time growing in cold water so for most pools it is ok. I test PH about twice a month but it does not seem to change much. CH I don't bother with since there is not much I can do about it anyway (mine is always high).

Thanks Richard!

I understand and appreciate that I have to continue to monitor my chemistires on a continoous basis even though I have a SWG. ( and have been doing so). When I was complaining about the SWG not producing in the winter; I was basically whining about the need to have to manually add chlorine, not all the testing and other stuff. I guess I got spoiled all last summer by not having too add much more then salt and acid a few times, LOL. I have tested regularly since I moved in, including all winter long. It was just this week that I learned that SWG shuts off in cold water. Which in reality, is a relief to know.

Thanks to you, and all the replies to this post; I have a better understanding of what I need to do now. I do not want to close the pool and have to face alage in the summer.I will continue to test every few days, and add chlorine/bleach as the tests show I need it, as well as the other chemistries like Ph, Cya etc.....

I am still perplexed as to why my shock is going away after a few days. Now, remember I live in the deep south, and we might hit below freezing for a few hours once or twice a winter. Low 40's is about as low as we go regularly. And we usually don't stay in the 40's during the day. So maybe the mildness of our winter is contributing to the chlorine loss? We have had an EXCESSIVE amount of rain this winter, just weeks upon weeks of rain. ( In fact; I am pumping water from under the liner at least once a week; but remember I live below sea level too on marshy type land).


I also think I made a big mistake with my pumps this winter. During the summer I was instructed to let them run 24/7 due to our excessive heat here. Well I did not know I was supposed to cut that back for the winter till I read about it somewhere today. So up till today they are still runnng 24/7. Have I done any damage by doing this? And can you please tell me how long I should set them for now, and what time of the day or night I should do this?

Once again I appreciate all your help on these matters. I feel like I have finally found some sound help! I have not gotten too much of that locally!

It is quite a relief just to know the darn thing isn't broken.

Mark what is CH? Please forgive my ignorance.

I also do not worry too much about my pool when it is too cold to swim. I live in N Fl so we only have about 2 or 3 months when it's cold enough to shut down the SWG (Goldline Aqualogic) and I don't worry about the chlorine droppping. Pools tend to stay in balance more in the oold weather because:
1) there is no bather load
2) the colder temps slow down the chemical reactions that occur in the water
3) the colder temps slow down the growth of algae and bacteria (much like your refrigerator does for the food you put in there)

The only danger is a suddend warm and sunny day or two in the middle of a cold spell. It could warm the pool enough to let algae take hold if the FC has dropped to near zero but on the other hand the SWG would start generating if the water got that warm. At any rate, it's nothing a few jugs of bleach couldn't take care of quickly!

CH is Calcium Hardness. It's just a measure of the amount of Calcium in the water.

As for the pumps, don't worry about it as you didn't do any damage. It's just expensive (in electricity) to run that long. I'm surprised you run them 24/7, however. Most people run them around 8 hours a day, sometimes 10 or 12. It all depends on how powerful the pumps are -- specifically, their Gallon-Per-Minute (GPM) rate and the size of your pool, with these two factors determining your turnover rate which is how many times an entire volume of pool water gets pumped by your pump. You usually want to run your pump in the summer so that you have at least 1 turnover per day though some people go with up to 2 and it really depends on how dirty your pool gets (i.e. how much stuff gets in it). In the winter, many people lower the run time to 2 hours or even 1 hour per day, but in your case since you were starting out so high and don't know the turnover rate, I'd say you are safe to go down to 4 hours per day at least for now (tell us your pool water volume or pool size including depth and your pump size in Horsepower and we might be able to estimate something for you).

Richard

Richard,

In most of the country that winterize their pools, they tend to run the pumps 24/7 to prevent the pipes from freezing up. For some, that's just how the pool builder built it (NO TIME CLOCK). These are mostly lower HP pumps so the cost to operate is not that bad.

Thanks Sean. I actually thought that might be the case, but when I saw that Sharon was in New Orleans (in her signature in her first post), I didn't think it got to freezing there so that's where my comment came from.

Richard

No, we rarely hit freezing. a few nights per winter at most. I was told to run the pumps 24/7 in the heat of the summer ( which is brutal here), not for the winter. I just never put the timer on the pump when winter came, due to my own ignorance. Of course now I cant find any little clip things to put on the timer wheel thingy; so I am hoping the pool store guy has some.


Update:

we have warmed up quite a bit the last few days here. Water temp has been showing 60-70's off and on last few days. The SWG did not kick back on by itself; I had to "reboot it" to get it going again. Then I would come check it later in the day and it was back to error 91 . Is the water temp fluctuating that much that it's kicking it off again?

water temp showed 74 this AM, I went to SWG; it was not running, I rebooted it again and it has been runnong for a few hours now. Will monitor to see if it shuts off again. Is this normal procedure or should it start sanitizing on its own again when the temp goes up?

thanks again for all the help; I really apprecite it.

It's probably going to continue doing that, fluctuate on and off, due to water temperatures. What you can do is ensure that your cell is clean of any scale or debris by giving it an acid bath. Rinse it off. Test your salt level, then increase the salinity to the upper end of the acceptable salt range. The increased salt will compensate in conductivity somewhat for the decreased conductivity of the water temps.

Well; it shut down again and showing low salt error ( which is what it has been showing all winter). I know the salt level is fine as I just checked it manually. I just cleaned the cell last weekend. the water temp has been 74 all day. is my cell broken?

No your cell is not broken. It's the nature of the Goldline. Again, increase the salt level to the upper end of the recommended salt range by Goldline and it will help the system somewhat.

It explain it a little more, a salt chlorine generator cell relies on conductivity of the water to pass the electricity across all the blades in the cell. When the temps decrease (colder), the conductivity also decrease. Salt increases the conductivity. So, one of the ways to compensate is to increase the salt level. In this case, I believe Goldline recommends no higher than 3500 or 3600 ppm of salt. Therefore, increase the salt level to 3600 ppm.

It will help to a certain point, then the conditions will exceed the capability for the system to operate properly. At that point, it will not cycle on and off, but it should stay off, under the protect mode.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poolsean

No your cell is not broken. It's the nature of the Goldline. Again, increase the salt level to the upper end of the recommended salt range by Goldline and it will help the system somewhat.

It explain it a little more, a salt chlorine generator cell relies on conductivity of the water to pass the electricity across all the blades in the cell. When the temps decrease (colder), the conductivity also decrease. Salt increases the conductivity. So, one of the ways to compensate is to increase the salt level. In this case, I believe Goldline recommends no higher than 3500 or 3600 ppm of salt. Therefore, increase the salt level to 3600 ppm.

It will help to a certain point, then the conditions will exceed the capability for the system to operate properly. At that point, it will not cycle on and off, but it should stay off, under the protect mode.

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Actually Sean, I am not sure it is the "nature of Goldline". Mine has never experienced that range of fluctuation. I have gone from 90 degrees pool temp in the summer to 45 degrees this winter and my salt reading has never varied more than 200 ppm. So there may be something else going on. I suspect scale.

Also, I have confirmed with Goldline that they use an independent temp probe in their cells so they do not rely upon the voltage and amps for temperature. I can see the temp probe in my cell so I have personally confirmed this. Also, I can view the temperature of each of my probes (air, water, SWG and solar) and the cell reads temperature very close to the water temp even when it is off (0 volts/amps) which would be impossible if it used volts and amps to measure temp.


Edit: Just checked the original szcakes post and the SWG was Autoclear Plus (polaris) not a Goldline.

right I have the Polaris autoclear plus and the owners manual I found on line does not address this issue at all.
What perplexes me is why it is shutting off now when the water temp has been in the 70's for at least 2 days now. I just cleaned the cell so it should not be scale. I also am at the upper level of salt as of saturday when I checked it.

I will call the Polaris hotline again tomorrow, but I dont expect to get the answers to be honest. very frustrating.

Update:

I called Polaris tech support again and he had me push some buttons on the screen for readings. He said my cell is having low amperage on one side??? It is still under warranty so I am getting a new one free of charge. Hopefully this will cure my problem. Thank you all for the help and the education I so desperately need!