pump will only prime when basket it out

I moved this from another thread because it put it under regular operations not repair..

We discovered this accidentally. The pump come within 4" bubble from priming. We've isolated each line siliconed every connection. Replaced every o ring.
We started the pump with the basket out..the one at the pump (obviously) and it primed.
Do you think it's the motor? Maybe it's not able to suck enough to pull the water through the basket.
The basket is clear..nothing stuck in it.
We took the motor away from the pump, cleaned the impellor..(spelling?)
Completely cleaned the filter and replaced the DE.
The drain is sucking, the skimmer is sucking. You can see the water rushing into the basket through the clear lid.

I thought it was strange that it would prime without the basket. We tried it twice to make sure it wasn't a fluke.

Any ideas?

Plus is it safe the run if it's just a bubble away from prime?
I'm obviously not circulating the water and it's getting yucky.
Thanks!

scottsdale,
Are you saying the pump strainer fills up with water except for an air bubble at the top? If so, your pump is primed.It's acceptable for there to be a small air bubble at the top of the pump strainer so long as you're getting good flow through and there's no cavitation.

By the way, do you have your main drain suction line opened completely (if you have one)?

SS, by any chance do you have a Northstar?

I thought it had to be air free?

It's a sta rite dyna glas one hp.

It used to prime with absolutely no air in the pot.
I've isolated each line. One line open, one line closed, half opened half closed.
I tried every combination and still- a big bubble in the top of the pot.

SS, the reason I asked about the Northstar, is that if the basket isn't in correctly, the lid won't completely seal - resulting in what you describe. I'm not 'up' on my Sta-rite pumps, but does your basket only go in one way (ie, there's a hole in it that matches up to the suction port) - If so, when the basket is slightly off center, it prevents the lid from being able to fully seal.

Mine has an air bubble in it too, when I run on low. When I run on high, water completely fills the pump basket.

I believe if it is not primed, you will see little or no pressure on the filter.

There is pressure at the filter. It's noticably lower..like 2-3psi lower than normal..

The rim on the basket is broken..chipped rather. It's been that way since we bought the house 1.5 years ago so doubt it's that.

The gasket looks perfect but still gets black smears on your hands when you touch it...

Have you tried to lubricate the o-ring?

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/333/basketgg1.jpg

I'll get a new basket tomorrow. I cleaned out the bottom of the pot really well, took the plug out and then even used a shop vac. Still didn't make a difference. Won't prime with the basket in.

The basket has been chipped but maybe it's possible that it's a little more chipped than before...who knows?!
GAH!

If the basket and gasket use the rim of the basket to seal then that could be the reason.

And.....I shocked the crap outta myself. Don't remove that plastic card thing that protects the wire connectors
then stand in water
with wet hands and
accidentally touch the connectors when you flip the pump.

That picture makes my hand look chubby. *sigh*

lol....love the red nail polish while doing pool maintenance though! ; )
Have you tried a new basket? It's not likely the basket itself causing the problem unless there's some kind of blockage in the basket that you cannot see.
There wasn't any 'hair" in the pump impeller when you cleaned it, was there?

If there's a reduction of suction on your filter, there may be some obstruction in your suction lines. The best way to check and clear this is to go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get a plumming "Drain Jet". It attaches to a garden hose, swells the canvas or rubber blatter to plug up the pipe, and forces water into the pipes to clear any obstruction. You would put this into the pipe going back to the pool from the pump basket area (with the lid removed of course).

Yeah, nothing like black goo under red fingernails.:rolleyes:


I tried the Drain king and isolated the drain and the skimmer at different times. Each seemed to have a good flow coming back. The drain is hard to tell because..well, I'm not getting in there to check. But....I put leaves over the drain to see if they floated away from the force of the water and they did...and the drain seems to suck just as it did before.

That drain king thing shoots a skinny stream of water..pulsating yes, but by the time it makes all those corners how forceful do you think it is?

If there was a clog, wouldn't I have the same results if the basket was in or out? Not priming?

The basket is free of any debris, I was concerned that there could be hair that I couldn't see. Some roofing pebbles but I removed them. Same thing.
There was a little debris in the impeller (try gettin' to that without ruining your manicure!)-removed that and still not priming.

Kurt..yep. Cleaned and Lubed the O ring. Even the O ring on the drain plug.

The woman at the poolstore (I know, I know) said that it was probably from the broken basket. She didn't come up with that on her own though AND she didn't have a replacement basket.

I'm concerned that the pump is failing and isn't strong enough to pull the water through the basket.
Hopefully I'll find a new basket today.
Will post the follow up for sure. Thanks for the replies.

got a replacement basket.

Not the problem. It still won't prime with the basket in.

How do you know if the motor is going?

This whole thread has had me stumped. On the motor, if it isn't making any strange noises, is running at a constant speed, is not overheating, not smoking, and not popping a breaker, then it's OK. That basket looks like it shouldn't restrict the flow much if at all. If I get any brilliant ideas I'll certainly post.
Al

Perhaps taking a photo of the pump, in operation, to see how large the bubble is you are speaking of. I don't remember reading this but are you venting your filter, at pump startup, after removing/ replacing the top off of the pump each time? That may help evacuate that bubble. Good luck.

Poconos- thanks. I appreciate any comments because I'm stumped too.
My husband is going to put a tachometer? I can't remember what he called it..to measure the output of the motor.

divnkd101...yep. Bleeding the air off each time. It's an obvious question but thanks for asking because seriously- I feel like I'm totally missing something!

If you thinking "oh I should ask...nah, she can't be that stupid" Just ASK because I'm blonde.


The thing is...I've repeatedly removed the basket, old one and new one...and then have been able to to fully prime.

The bubble..I'll take a picture right now. It's just under the handle thing on the top.
I'll take a picture.
Some people consider that primed but it used to be totally free of any air bubbles- which I considered prime. lemme get that photo.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4969/bubbleix9.jpg

okay..see where the air is in the pot? I used an arrow but it's hard to see.
Btw, the air pocket is bigger.
I was going to take the lid off and prime without the basket so you wouldn't think I was crazy..but I couldn't get the lid off.

that bubble does not look too bad to me.. is it causing the pump to cavitate or make a lot of noise?


Does the lip of the basket slip under the cover and prevent it from seating all the way maybe ?

Phillbo...It's not making a lot of noise...it's the same as it was before. The pressure had decreased by about 2-4 lbs. Not much.
The new basket fits exactly as the old one.
I think I'll pick up a new lid just in case. It looks like it's in great condition but when I had the stethescope near the top it was hissy-er.
Maybe just because of the air bubble in the pot...not really sure.
Gah! Makes me nuts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phillbo

that bubble does not look too bad to me.. is it causing the pump to cavitate or make a lot of noise?


Does the lip of the basket slip under the cover and prevent it from seating all the way maybe ?

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It almost sounds like the height of the basket for some reason is preventing the lid from completely seating and letting some air in. Could the lid have warped slightly. Maybe a new lid is the next test. Or maybe the basket needs shaving down 1/16" of an inch maybe. The only other thing I can think of is that the basket is creating some sort of vortex with the water passing around it and that creates the air pocket, no basket, cleaner flowing water.

Put some shaving cream (the foamy kind) around the outside of the seal on the pot while the pump is running. If the air goes away, then your leak is there. The shaving cream will also eventually begin to suck in where the leak is, which should be evident by a hole showing up in the shave cream (you could probably also see it through that clear lid).

I have used shaving cream several times to find leaks in pipe joints and seals on the suction side. It pinpoints exactly where the leak is.

Andy..Great idea with the shaving cream!

It is possible that the lid warped...in the arizona sun, everything warps.

I'm off work early today so I'll head home and lather it up.
I can just imagine what the neighbors are thinking. Stethoscope? Shaving cream?

I sealed all the pvc joints but I might as well lather those up too just in case.

What's strange is that the old basket worked fine for over a year...and then all of a sudden it wouldn't prime.
I think there's a very good possibility that the lid is warped. I know it says not to overtighten and Mr.Man has been overtightening. There are times that I can't get the lid off. Yes, I'm a girl but still! I even use a stick to pry it off..you know in between the thingies (technical term) and still can't get it off. Maybe that sort of abuse has warped it...or cracked it where it can't be seen.

shaving cream first and then new lid.

thankyouthankyouthankyou!

okay so the shaving cream didn't get sucked in at all..and it didn't create any more of a seal so that it primed. After putting shaving cream on the rim and waiting and waiting..nothing. So I covered the lid in case there was a crack. Nothing.
I finally got the lid off, took the basket out and it freakin' primed-

Before I start whittling away at the basket I have a question.

If the basket was preventing the lid from sealing, wouldn't I have seen the shaving cream being sucked in?
There would have been some indication that it was sucking air right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottsdaleSwim

If the basket was preventing the lid from sealing, wouldn't I have seen the shaving cream being sucked in?
There would have been some indication that it was sucking air right?

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That's right. :) You can prove this to yourself by closing a piece of straw or something thin across the seal. The tiny gap it causes will be sufficient to make the shaving cream suck into the hole.

Perhaps the basket has that effect on the efficiency of the pump. You said that with the basket you are not getting the same pressure you used to. I forget...:confused: Is the pressure different with the basket than without the basket?

You say you have an old basket and a new basket now? An interesting experiment would be to start drilling 1/4" holes in the old basket.. or new basket you choose. Start with 10 or so and test to see if it primes, if not keep going until its swiss cheese and see if it eventually primes. If it eventually does, maybe your pump has a suction problem, it only has enough power to prime if there is little or no obstructions.

Put a tachometer to the shaft of the motor and it's right around 3400 rpm and the motor is a 3450 1hp motor.

Blew the line with a hose through a chunk of noodle (works great btw) and had bubbles and water coming up through the drain. Also blew out the skimmer line. No bubbles. No chunks of leaves or debris came from either line.

So we turned the pump back on. I slid a cap over the drain while it was open. I could barely get it off the suction was so great. The pressure dropped all the way down to 5.

When the basket is out the pressure only increases by 1-2 psi. So psi is 13 to 14 with the basket out

Our old pressure was right around 15 now it's around 12 with the basket in.


The basket is becoming swiss cheese as we speak.

The thing is..isolating each line makes no difference in the pressure. Each isolation only drops the pressure by 1-2 psi. Close the drain, open the skimmer - no difference.
And the opposite is true. So it's not like we can even identify a problem in one line and not the other.

Can we just run the pump with the bubble? It's not a huge bubble, as you can kinda see from the photo.

I've included a photo of my hose apparatus..because I need to feel like I'm contributing.


http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/9772/noodlejf0.jpg

sidenote...as I was uploading this photo my husband was calling our local pool store (they make me violent) to see if they have an impeller in stock (he thinks it's the impeller)..anyhow I was looking down at the computer and I said "lemme guess, he didn't know his a** from a whole in the ground." I looked up to see why he was hissing at me and he was still on the phone. oopsie!

I don't normally speak that way. I swear :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottsdaleSwim

Can we just run the pump with the bubble? It's not a huge bubble, as you can kinda see from the photo.

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I run mine (a Hayward) with small bubble like that. It appeared a 2-3 years ago, and I figured as long as it was not cavitating it was okay.

Out of curiosity, have you changed any plumbing lately? Just wondering if there is a place in the plumbing that can trap the air that forms the bubble.

Andy- I'm glad to hear that I can run it with the bubble.
My pool is starting to get yucky.

We haven't done any plumbing..we bought the house just over a year ago.

My husband picked up an impeller today from the pool store...and guess what?
It's the wrong one.
If the new impeller doesn't change things I'll "watch and wait" because frankly, this is makin' me nuts.:eek:

My basket has a slot that has to be lined up with its mating twin in the basket housing itself. If I don't line them up the lid does not fit right. I know this is probably not your problem but was wonderring if the new basket does not have the slot cut into it that keys into the housing?

It actually looks like it's going to be the impeller. We're waiting for it to come in but when we took the old one in..so they would be sure to order the correct one...
The guy said the impeller looked pretty worn.
He showed us how a new one should look and it definitely looked worn. It should be in tomorrow or wednesday so we'll see how it works when we put the new one on.