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I am a newby to these pools. Took sample to pool store today. Total alkal. was very high (225). They recomended adding 2 gallons of muratic acid after the days swimming. Added acid tonite, both gallons. THEN I read on the instructions only add 1 pint per day!!!
OH MY GOD! I just put in 2 gallons!!!! WHAT DO I DO!!!
PLEASE ANY ADVICE!!!!
I just had a version of this happen . . . my son put muratic acid in instead of bleach!
I'm sure the gurus will help you shortly, but from the thread detailing my problem ChemGeek noted "About a pound of Borax is equivalent to a cup of Muriatic Acid". You put in two gallons which is 32 cups, soooo you might try 32 pounds of 20 Mule Team Borax to put yourself back where you started from (it's cheap - about 75 cents a pound).
BTW, acid isn't the way to deal with high total alkalinity . . . you lower the Ph and bubble air into the water and through the magic of chemistry your TA will fall and your Ph will rise. I believe there's a sticky note around here somewhere detailing the whole process.
I've used a spare pump to make a fountain to put air in the water, it worked but was slow. Using a borrowed air compressor and an injection quil I made out of pvc I once lowered the TA in record time, so if you have an air compressor I'd recommend that route.
While you're waiting for the gurus to chime in you should post some more specifics . . . what type of pool? How big of a pool? Are you using chlorine? Also, run a full gamut of tests and post the results (you do have a test kit . . . a drop based one, NOT test strips!).
Good luck!
Steve
Okay, thanks Steve. Here are my specifics. New (start up was last Thursday) 17,000 gunite/plaster pool.
Test results before adding acid.
Free chlorine - 1.3ppm
Total Chlorine - 1.3ppm
Combined chlorine - 0.0
PH - 7.9
hardness - not run
alkalinity - 227ppm
Cyanuric Acid - 10ppm
Copper - not run
Iron - 0ppm
Total disolved solids - not run
The pool is on an automatic clorinator with tri-clor tabs, and an ozonater.
I added the acid per the instructions (as I understood them) from the person at the pool store that I had my water tested at. She informed me that this would have an affect on the ph and not to worry about that, that I needed to get the total alkalinity in line first, and then adjust the ph. Actually, I added LESS than the report sais to add. It recomended 2 gallons, 3 qts.
The ph after testing with my drop test kit shows 6.8, but I don't know if this is as low as it wil indicate, or if that is what it really is.
What I am woried about is damaging the new plaster.
Carl.
Carl,
First of all, take a deep breath and relax. I'll let you know the probable effects of what you did and how you can fix it and others can chime in if I screw up or to give further assistance. You and your pool will get through this just fine.
I calculate that with your pool numbers the 2 gallons of acid probably lowered your pool's pH down to 6.7 so that is not something to be overly concerned about. Since you are already down to that pH, you might as well follow Ben's procedure for lowering alkalinity where you have already started with the part about lowering pH and can start the aeration process and watch the pH rise. When the pH rises to the point that it's measureable on your test kit (i.e. at the level one higher than the lowest level on the test kit), then you can continue to aerate AND add acid to keep the pH low (per the procedure). Monitor your TA during this process and watch it drop until it reaches your target which should be around 100 (assuming you stop using Tri-Chlor tablets -- more on that later).
Your CYA level is on the low side IF it were accurately measured, but I doubt very much that they measured this at 10 since the standard turbidity test normally stops at 30 (some go to 20). If your pool store used a colorimeter, then they could have measured the 10, but there have been reports on this forum of some pool stores reporting 100 minus the actual measurement (which would mean 90 in your case) so I'm concerned we don't really know what the true CYA level is. If you can get a test kit to measure this yourself, that would be best (I'm assuming you didn't do the CYA measurement yourself since the test kit doesn't show 10).
Anyway, if you can let us know if 10 is the real CYA level then that would be helpful for determining the next step after you get your TA lowered. If your CYA is truly that low, then you can continue to use Tri-Chlor tablets in your automatic chlorinator for a while (you'll still need to add base, such as Borax, periodically since Tri-Chlor is quite acidic) until your CYA gets up to a higher level, probably at least 30. The actual level you should have is somewhat dependent on how much sunlight and chlorine loss you get each day, but generally the proper CYA will be in the range of 30-50 (I keep my CYA closer to 15, but I have an opaque pool cover and very low chlorine loss levels).
After your CYA is at the proper level, you should stop using the Tri-Chlor tablets and switch to a liquid chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) source -- either chlorinating liquid which is concentrated chlorine or liquid bleach (Clorox Regular unscented or Clorox Ultra again unscented). You will not need to adjust your pH as much after switching to a liquid chlorine source.
Hope this information helps.
Richard
Whewwww.......okay, breath in, breath out, I am calm, I am calm......hmmmmmmmmmmm.
Okay, I (an now my wife, who is NOT happy about being woken up by the back door opening and closing) was SO woried about the low ph, she went ang got ALL the Borax they (Walmart) had, 2 boxes, and 2 boxed of baking soda 4 pounds. We added the baking soda to bring the ph somewhat back in line, about 6.9. We will keep the Borax just in case.
After re-testing for the alkalinity, I measured it at about 260, so I have no idea who is correct, me or the pool store. I am going to take another sample to a different store tomorroww for another test.
Thank you SO much for a quick response! I may have made a knee jerk reaction, but I had a mental picture of the plaster fallin off and ending up in th pottom of the deep end. I know, I know I crazy, maybe it is because it is 3:35 in the morning here!
Anyway, what is more imprtant, alkalinity or ph?
Carl.
Don't add baking soda to raise ph. It's primary function is to raise ALKALINITY. Use Borax to raise pH and follow CarlD's instructions to lower alkalinity. Don't panic. These folks (moderators) on the forum really know their stuff. It's hard to do anything that will actually damage your pool, so relax. Please do follow their recommendations and you'll have great water before you know it. I've had crystal clear water for well over a year with NO algae since I began BBB. Just be patient until your pool reaches chemical equilibrium. Post often, and give your complete test data so they can give you the best instructions. Happy swimming!
drband
Oops... I think the ALK lowering sticky is by Ben, not CarlD. In any case, look for it at the top of one of these forums.
Okay, crap!
Sounds like I made ANOTHER mistake! This morning, the ph is about the same, 6.8 or so, but my total alkalinity is about 300 ppm! Sounds like baking soda was the WRONG thing to add.
The pool has a waterfall. Will this sub for the airation?
I also have 2 boxes of borax (what I SHOULD have put in, instead of the baking soda). Should I add that?
I'm no pool expert, but I would resist the temptation to keep adding stuff. I know it makes us feel better to be -doing- something, but in this case you're making things worse. While the original alkalinity was a little high, it may not have caused any problems. Those pool store computer analysis sheets are programmed to make recommendations based on any variance from a standard set of parameter target ranges. They are also programmed to sell stuff you may not need.
If I were you I would find a way to aerate the water as much as possible over the next few days. As the pool outgases the resultant CO2 from the acid, the pH will automatically rise and the alkalinity will fall. So you don't want to artificially raise the pH when you need it low to start this process to begin with.
Given that you've just -raised- the alkalinity, plan on buying some more muriatic acid. Follow the directions posted at this forum to lower alkalinity - aerate, measure the pH and alkalinity, lower the pH if necessary, repeat as needed until the alkalinity is down where you want it.
Just follow chem_geek's advice . . . don't add anything, just bubble some air through the water and the TA will fall and the Ph will rise.
I would imagine the water fall will work fine to bubble air into the water. If you have the ability though, make an injection quill out of some pvc (actually about anything would work - even an old garden hose with some tiny holes drilled in it and one end plugged and the other end hose clamped to an air line fitting) and hook up a large air compressor if you have one (those tiny ones you see to run nail guns, etc. wont work - they'll run and run and put very little air in the pool, they just don't have the capacity needed).
Last year we had a 12' Intex above ground and I rigged a fountain up and it worked but was slow. Later one of the kids tried to climb up on the ring of the pool and let a ton of water out. After I refilled it the darn TA was high again. This time I hooked up an air compressor and it fell very quickly.
Just calm down and follow the advice given and everything will work out.
/Steve
Crank up the waterfall and let it run. Check you Chlorine, add some if needed. Do not add anything else today. Then Relax and enjoy the rest of your day!
Yes, by all means turn on the waterfall, and keep it on. It will indeed aerate the water.
Here a very quick guide to chemicals:
*Muriatic acid OR dry acid=lowers pH
*Bleach=raises Cl
*Borax (hydrated sodium borate)=raises pH…so does soda ash(sodium carbonate) BUT soda ash WILL ALSO RAISE alkalinity
*Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate)=raises Alk
To RAISE your pH, add 20 mule team borax (from the grocery detergent section) at the rate of 1/2 cup per 1,000 gallons or 1/2 box per 10,000 gallons. Do NOT try to adjust your pH all at once. Allow at least 2 hours of PUMP-ON time, after adding borax, before retesting the pH. HOWEVER, since your pH is already low, just crank out the aeration (waterfall AND poolparty!!) and alk should decrease and pH increase.
You stated also that you use tri-chlor tabs? Besides adding chlorine, these do 2 things: drive down pH, and add CYA. The first you don't need, the second you do as your start level is 10ppm. Do you know if any was added at startup? If so, wait a week or so and retest. It takes that long for the stuff to fully dissolve. You may want to consider switching to bleach once you get this pH/alk issue resolved, and if CYA is still low, then add it yourself to recommended levels, and turn off the chlorinator. Read through the Chlorinating section for details.
I do believe with a new gunite/plaster pool you are going to have some fairly wild chemical fluctuations due to the curing of the plaster. Make sure to monitor the calcium hardness level; if not high enough some will begin leeching out of the wall. Please check with your pool builder and get his/her recommendations on water chemistry, and what to expect during the curing process.
So, invite people over and begin aerating! Good luck.
CaryB
Caniac
DaBomb650,
As you no doubt have figured out from the excellent posts, your adding of baking soda increased your alkalinity which was the opposite of what should have been done. Nevertheless, this is NOT a serious problem, so keep breathing...
In my first post I referred to a link (click on the following underlined text) on Ben's procedure for lowering alkalinity where you will find details of how to lower your alkalinity. You have essentially already done the first step which is to lower your pH to a relatively low level. So at this point, do not add any more chemicals to your pool (other than chlorine such as Tri-Chlor tablets) and just start aerating through whatever means you have, including getting into the pool and splashing around vigorously as well as pointing your return jets upward and bubbling air through your pool (if you have a compressor) using tiny bubbles (with all due respect to Don Ho). A pH of 6.9 will not be unhealthful for you -- it's not the ideal pH for the long-term, but it is certainly safe to swim in (perhaps a slight stinging in the eyes) and especially to splash in and is required to get your TA down.
As was also pointed out, be sure to keep your chlorine levels up as your chlorine will continue to get used up just as it always has. Having the Tri-Chlor tablets in your feeder should provide enough chlorine, but measure it to be sure and, if necessary, add more chlorine from liquid chlorine (either chlorinating liquid or bleach. If your CYA is truly down around 10, then your chlorine level should be between 2 and 5 ppm as per another link you can click on, Ben's FC/CYA chart.
Good luck and keep us posted. Aerating your pool can be lots of fun, especially if you have kids (who seem to enjoy kicking, splashing, hurling water at one another, etc.).
Richard
These are also some excellent points applicable for a new gunite/plaster pool. Usually what happens during the curing process is that calcium hydroxide is produced so you find your Calcium Hardness (CH) increasing somewhat and your pH increasing quite a bit. Since currently Tri-Chlor tablets are being used, this is acidic and compensates for the "hydroxide" from the curing so that the combintation results in a relatively stable pH. As you point out, monitoring over time is important and getting the Calcium Hardness (CH) level checked is also important -- if no calcium was added at all to his pool water during startup, then that would indeed cause concern for etching or dissolving the new plaster (I would assume that the pool builder put in Calcium when initially filling the pool water, but you never know...).Quote:
Originally Posted by ivyleager
So, Carl, please have your Calcium Hardness (CH) level checked when you get a chance and post your results.
Richard
Okay.
I'm calm. I turned on the waterfall and am letting it run. The ph tested 7.8 this after noon, I am guessing due to the baking soda.
I added 1/2 gallon diluted (diluted before puting into pool) and will wait for several days, checking the total ALK everyday.
Thanks for all your advice. I will keep you posted on the results.
Carl.
You really need to follow the link chem_geek gave ya - Ben's method works, but you actually need a lower Ph to make it work . . . stop adding things, slow down, follow the directions given.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBomb650
/Steve
Carl,
Yes, now that your pH is up, you need to get it back down by adding acid. Otherwise you won't get your TA down. Follow Ben's procedure in the link I provided. I'm sorry if I confused you by saying you should just start aerating -- that was when I thought your pH was at 6.9 -- if the pH goes up then you want to add acid to keep it down. You'll be adding LOTS of acid in this process and that is the correct thing to do as the pH will want to rise with the aeration. The entire process goes faster if you dilligently keep the pH down until you reach your target TA level.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Richard
Okay, update.
Checked the ALK this morning, it is down!! About 220, with a drop test. Waterfall still running. pH this morning was about 6.9, after adding 1 quart, (pre-diluted in pool water) of the acid. I will check it again when I get home. May need to add more acid as the pH rises, right?
My free chlorine has skyrocketed! It is at about 3.0ppm right now! I have turned the chlorinator to the lowest setting to try to keep this in check.
Will post more results as I get them. Trying to test twice a day.
Carl.
Do you have a Hayward inline chlorinator, by chance? If so, they are notorious for 'dial error'. There are several posts on this site about them. I have one, no longer use it as at the lowest setting or even off and chlorinator half full w/ tabs, I would get chlorine readings of 5ppm!! It is hard to believe that all Hayward chlorinators have this problem.......if you have one, here's hoping it works correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBomb650
Just to clarify, DO NOT ADD BLEACH THROUGH THE SKIMMER if you have an inline chlorinator which had not been thoroughly cleaned/aired out. Some say to NEVER add bleach thru skimmer if there is an inline chlorinator. Should you chose to add any bleach at all, just slowly pour around perimeter of pool OR in front of return jets. Make sure to run filter during and after adding any chems.
CaryB
DaBomb650 - One thing I've learned here, is more times than not, doing nothing is better than doing something. Reacting to an Algae bloom, or your filter shooting a stream of water 30 feet in the air being the exception (you get my point). Check out more of the forums, and relax. Check here first if you have a question, most matters can wait a day or two before you need to even think about doing something, so asking here will get you a good answer rather than doing the 3 AM store runs for something. Really, after 5 years of pool ownership now, I have found relaxing is much easier and I find the pool pretty much sorts it out itself as long I as I keep the chlorine levels in place, and monitor the others. Any more I only add chlorine and acid upon occasion. Have to shock if I screw up and forget to fill my chlorinator and algae gets a foothold (but it still is nothing to panic over, some shock, a little brushing, good to go). I find I work more with the skimmer (manual) than anything with the outdoor pool.
ivyleager,
No, I don't think it's a Hayward, but I will look this afternoon and post my findings. Thank you for the reminder about the bleach. I plan on using the chlorinator since I have it already, it it turns into a problem, I may change my mind.
fofa,
Thanks for the advice, I have calmed down and have come to the realization that I seem to have over-reacted and now I'm paying the price. I know the pool will come back, it will just take some time.
Thank you all for all of your advice! It's much appriciated, all of you! I will keep you posted on ALL of my results.
My chlorinator is the Pentair Rainbow 320.