My Pool Looks Like An EASTER EGG!!! -- NOT a good thing!

Ok, at risk of being totally lambasted for depending on my pool store... Here is my story:
:o ***WAIT -- before I begin -- I just want to say that I am ready to learn how to take care of my pool myself and NOT depend on my pool store, but I REALLY NEED HELP because I am not confident at all when it comes to matters of science/chemistry (my degree is in History -- def. NOT a scientist!).***

Ok, here goes...
We have an inground, gunite pool with exposed aggregate in a pretty blue-green color (GORGEOUS when it's clean and sparkling!). It is approx. 35 feet long and 9.5 feet wide with a 15' x 15' wide square, jut-out on the shallow end. (In other words, a long, narrow, rectangle with a box sticking out on one side.) We have a CARTRIDGE filter (slightly oversized, I'm told).
>>Pool store estimated that my pool capacity was about 12,000 gallons???
I have just METICULOUSLY tested my water and these are my readings RIGHT NOW (5:00 pm CDT on 16 April 2006):
Water temp: 80 degrees F
FC: 0.............. Yes, ZERO; it appears that we have created a riduculous chlorine demand with the black algaetrine (OR SOMETHING!) that we used prior to attacking the stain...
TC: 0
CC: 0 (obviously) ;)
pH: 8.0
Acid Demand: 4 drops (or ~1.5 quarts muriatic acid)
TA: 120
CH: 360!
CYA: 65

Some of you may recall that I opened my pool with what appears to be an iron/rust stain all along the bottom of the pool. Not sure where this came from as we've never had trouble with this before and this will be our 5th year with this pool (and it's 5 years old). I live in the deep South (Baton Rouge, LA) and it's already hot as blazes here. I would LOVE to be swimming right NOW, but obviously, I need to get all this under control first...

First 3 summers, we used a copper ionization system (WAY too much work and I could never keep my copper or pH balanced!). Almost 2 years ago, we switched to chlorine and had almost NO trouble at all last summer (except for some stubborn black algae).
You can read more about my stain & see pics of my pool/stain in the metal/stains column/forum on this board (orange-brown stains thread).

Went to pool store for help because I am not very confident yet in maintaining a chlorinated pool esp. with the introduction of these new problems... First thing they told me was that it was copper in my pool. :confused:
They had me pour in one bottle of metal out, wait 2 days, rinse my cartridge filter, pour in a second bottle, wait 2 days and rinse again.
**NO change to the stain.**
THEN, they tested my water and saw that my chlorine was almost zero, so they decided to try the Stain Eliminator (ascorbic acid). This took up about 1/2 the stain, but it took about 3 days to do it!
Unfortunately, while the stain eliminator was taking its sweet time, my pH shot up and my water started turning cloudy!
So back to the store...
They sold me a bottle of off-brand Baquacil SHOCK (peroxide??) and told me to pour in the whole bottle and it would *shock* my pool AND finish removing the stain.
Um, I don't think so. It cleared up my water (no longer cloudy), but that's about all. Now my pool is starting to resemble a lagoon from all the algae growth... I'm paralyzed with inaction because I don't know what to do next!
I don't really think the pool store knows what they are doing but I'm afraid to just *wing it* for fear of REALLY messing up my pool...
And they have already gotten about $150 from me this month; I really can't afford to spend any more on this mess this month! :(
WHAT CAN/SHOULD I DO???

***One final note that I think is FAR more relevant than the pool store wants to admit: When I brush the bottom of the pool with a metal brush, the brown "stain" sends up a "cloud" of brown dust. Wouldn't that indicate that it is NOT a stain, but something organic??? In the beginning, I could NOT brush up the stain, so I'm wondering if I have had TWO problems going on at the same time -- one metal-related and one organic?

I would sincerely appreciate ANY HELP I can get at this point and as quickly as possible!!!
And I want to switch to BLEACH (I've been using hth chlorine super shock and pucks in a floater up till now).
Many thanks in advance for ANY help/direction you can give... I apologize for the lengthy rant!

I have 2 bottles of METAL OUT and some OMNI Filter Aid. Can I go ahead and use those -- even with all the algae in my pool and my pH being so high??? What do you think?
I was thinking I might soak my filters overnight and spray them down really good tomorrow, then add the Metal Out & filter aid, then reclean the filters...
But there is SO much algae (live & die-off) in my pool right now, I'm kind of immobilized by fear of doing something out-of-step.
Just looking for SOME kind of direction here...
TIA,
Summer

Hi, Summer,

You'll need to read a lot more. Poolsolutions.com and http://www.deh.enr.state.nc.us/ehs/chem.htm#ta will fill in the blanks for you on what you need to know. ( You've gotten a little confused on the Cl thing, I'll bet you've got CC in that pool)

How deep is the pool? Does the 35' length include the 15'x15' box? Be very detailed so you can get the correct volume...we'll all help if you get us the info. 12,000 gallons seems too small.

1. Get the muriatic acid in there (we'll tell you how much after we figure you're gallonage) and get your pH down to about 7.2-7.6

2. You must identify the stain. It sure sounds like iron and the ascorbic acid seems to have had an effect. Perhaps Marie or Ben will see this post and have some info for you. I cannot tell you how to positively identify the stain, nor can I tell you the best way to treat it...again, I think it's iron.

3. You're gonna' have to shock the pool but I'm not sure you can or want to do that 'til you get the metal under control. My reccomendation is a PM to "mbar" (that's Marie). She fights metal in her pool almost every year and seems to know more about it than almost anyone on the forum.

4. If it weren't for the apparent metal in your water, this would be an easy fix. But, you've got it and you're gonna' need some pretty expert help to get it under control. (I can answer one question, "metal out" removes NO metal, it only suspends it in solution...in other words, it's still in there...you just can't see it)

5. The pool store folks seem to be floundering. Their advice doesn't make much sense. "Trying" this and that will only exacerbate your problem. I would not put one more chemical in the water until you felt confident you were getting knowledgeable help.

This post will probably frustrate you because I sense you are hoping for a quick fix. With that staining issue, I don't think one exists. You're gonna' have to take it a step at a time.:)

Dave S.

Dave,
Thank you so much for responding!
I agree; there is SO much more I need to learn! And I don't want to rely on my pool store any more. They are nice & mean well, but I feel so vulnerable and at their mercy... I do NOT like that!
Ok, first things first:
2) Oops; forgot that. It is 3 ft. in the shallow end and it gradually (about halfway) goes down to 6 ft. YES, the 35 feet includes the 15' x 15' box.
Actually, I just RE-measured my pool and it's exact measurements are 37 feet long, 9.5 feet wide and the jut-out measures 5.5 x 14 (or 15 x 14 as the total width x jut-out length).
I'm going to try to upload a diagram of its dimensions in a moment...
http://www.herstorygirl.com/mypool2.html

Actually, your post does not frustrate me, but rather, confirms my suspicions that my pool store is just guessing, too.
I will post more info as needed, but for now, I'm going to check out that link...
Thanks again!

Hi, Summer,

based on the dimensions above, that DOES come out to about 12,000 gallons. Let's use that for now...we can tell later if it's incorrect.

I'm going to offer a path you can take if you choose. It will address your algae problem but may cause your staining to worsen. I've reread some info on metal and Marie seems to think that the staining can be overcome at any point so, if it were my pool, I;d give this a try. That said, keep in mind that you're still gonna struggle with what we think is iron in your water....even after you get your pool clear.

1. Don't put anything else in the water unless we talk about it here...it'll cause you further issues perhaps and certainly cost you money you don't need to spend. Don't even use the products you've bought...that'll come later. Then, download mwsmith2's calculator from any of his posts and use it for all your calcs.....plan on 12,000 gal for your pool size.

2. Put in one quart of muriatic acid (into the jets, pump running) as soon as you can get it. Test your pH and post it back. Hopefully, it'll be about 7.2-7.4.

3. Get about 15 gallons or so of 6% Clorox and have it on hand. Your gonna use most of it right away. be ready to get some more very quickly.

4. You need to test for CYA and tell us what it is. If you can't test for it with your kit, please get one that does.

5. I'm gonna' assume you can get all above done by tomorrow evening (the CYA test is optional at this point, but don't put it off too long)

6. Tomorrow evening, after the sun is very low in the sky, put in 4 gallons of the 6% bleach. That should raise your Cl to 20pp, (but it's gonna start dropping right away) Find a way to test for CYA and post that info as soon as you can. You'll need to get some in there the next evening.

7. The next evening, test your water again for Cl and pH. Adjust your pH with either muriatic acid (down) or Borax (up) using the calculator. Now add enough Clorox (into the skimmer, pump running) to bring your Cl back up to 20ppm.

8. Hopefully, you'll have gotten the CYA test done, and purchased enough (if you even need it) to bring your CYA up to about 40.

Let's stop there for now. More steps at this point would be information overload. If you can do the above, asking any questions along the way, everyone here will help you get your water sparkling.!:) :)

Dave S.

My question is when you put in the Black Algaetrine? According to the MSDS on it it contains copper carbonate (I believe it's 3% copper) and some organic ammonia compound (MONOETHANOLAMINE, TRIETHANOLAMINE) which form choramines(that's combined chlorine!) when put into your pool,and DIMETHYL BENZYL AMMONIUM CHLORIDE which is a quat (NOT polyquat!) . The choramines are eaten by the algae and decolorize them. The quat and the copper both are algaecides. This can create a very big chlorine demand. Have you tested your water for copper and iron? The black in your pool might not have been algae at all but a copper stain. In a highly oxidized state copper will create black stains! This is a complex situation but it can be fixed. IMHO, the first step is to see if there are metals in your water and to test the stain to see if it is a metal stain. There are stain tests kits available or you can determine what the stain is with the help of some of the more experienced people on here! First thing is to determine if it is really a stain and what kind or an algae problem . The treatments are different depending on what the results are.
Don't loss faith. You will be swimming soon!

I would follow what Dave said. I think you are dealing with algae, because if you can rub the stain off with a brush, then it isn't a metal stain. I would go ahead and put the metal free in before you add the chlorine, it will bind with any metal that may be in solution, and then I would put a chlorine puck in your skimmer so that if there is staining, it will stain the filter first. You must have your ph down to 7.0, 7.2 for the chlorine to work the best, and the more acidic the pool, the less chance of it staining with high chlorine. I would keep the chlorine at shock levels for at least a week, and especially until the water is holding the chlorine with no combined chlorine. Don't add any cya if you have it at 65, that is high enough. Have some patience - the water won't clear over night, but you will be able to see improvement day to day. Don't worry about the stain coming back - if it does, you will be able to treat it, but for now you have to make sure there is no algae in your pool. You can swim with stains, but you can't swim with algae!!. Put metal free in, bring down your ph, and add lots of bleach - put a puck in the skimmer. keep the filter running 24/7. Keep us posted & best of luck.

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Originally Posted by mbar

I would follow what Dave said. I think you are dealing with algae, because if you can rub the stain off with a brush, then it isn't a metal stain. I would go ahead and put the metal free in before you add the chlorine, it will bind with any metal that may be in solution, and then I would put a chlorine puck in your skimmer so that if there is staining, it will stain the filter first. You must have your ph down to 7.0, 7.2 for the chlorine to work the best, and the more acidic the pool, the less chance of it staining with high chlorine. I would keep the chlorine at shock levels for at least a week, and especially until the water is holding the chlorine with no combined chlorine. Don't add any cya if you have it at 65, that is high enough. Have some patience - the water won't clear over night, but you will be able to see improvement day to day. Don't worry about the stain coming back - if it does, you will be able to treat it, but for now you have to make sure there is no algae in your pool. You can swim with stains, but you can't swim with algae!!. Put metal free in, bring down your ph, and add lots of bleach - put a puck in the skimmer. keep the filter running 24/7. Keep us posted & best of luck.

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Chlorine puck in the skimmer is NOt a good idea with a cartridge filter. The very low pH of trichlor can actually ruin the cartridge (happened to me when my pool was being built. Before they got the SWG working they were puting trichlor pucks in the skimmer and it started to dissolve the rubber (or plastic) ends on the cartridge and put goo from it all inside the filter and into my pool! My builder actually fired one of his guys who did this and ended up having to replace my entire filter which was only about 2 months old at the time)

Wow, I appreciate you guys so much! Thanks for all your help...

Ok, sorry about the typo last night (too tired after an exhausting day); yes, my CYA is 65.
***Aside: The Black Algaetrine was added about 3 weeks ago, two days after the initial vacuum & shock...
I'm *pretty sure* that it is black algae (black freckles and streaks in localized areas).
By the way, the black algae (or whatever it is) is STILL THERE. So, maybe you're right; maybe it's not...***

I will definitely do what you say... add muriatic acid (wait 3 hours), then add the bleach, but I'll wait until around 3 or 4 this afternoon when the sun is no longer on that side of my house so that I don't end up converting all of my chlorine!
I am confused now about whether or not to put the puck in the skimmer... it is definitely a tri-chlor puck and I certainly don't want what Waterbear suggests to happen! Interestingly, Waterbear, it was my pool store owner who first suggested putting a puck in my skimmer -- had me do that last week. Thank goodness, that's the ONLY ONE I've put in there so far!

Also, I have TWO bottles of Metal Out; should I just add the one?
And according to the REGAL manufacturer's instructions:

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It is advisable to add this product at least one day prior to adding algaecide or chlorine.

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So should I add the Metal Out NOW and do the acid/bleach TOMORROW???
Or if I do the Metal Out now, 9:15 am CDT on Monday, can I still do the acid/bleach tonight (say, around 7pm & 10pm, respectively?). Would that be enough of a window between the two?
I realize that y'all are having to do a lot of "hand-holding" with me, and I apologize, but I'm a fast learner and I want to learn, so don't give up on me!
Thanks again,

Oh, one more thing: Does the pH need to come down BEFORE I add the Metal Out or can I do that NOW -- green pool and all???

I'm sorry I don't know anything about cartridge filters, I have a sand filter so I can't say about the puck in the skimmer, but I would listen to Waterbear on that. The reason it says not to add the chlorine till after the metal out is to allow time for the metal out to adhere to the metal in the water, so that it can be filtered out before the chlorine makes it come out of solution and fall onto the pool surface. So a couple of hours is enough. With a cya of 65, your chlorine should hold fine in the sun - you don't want your cya any higher. You can add chlorine after a few hours. I would keep your chlorine high at all times now to get rid of any algae - whenever you check your chlorine make sure to take it back to shock levels. Your chlorine will start to hold when the algae, or even metals in solution are gone. Metals that are in solution use up chlorine too, that's why it is important to keep your chlorine levels up for now. MAKE SUR YOU KEEP YOUR FILTER RUNNING 24/7. I still think that you have algae since the stain was able to be rubbed off. If it is a mineral stain, no amount of rubbing will get it off, but ascorbic acid (vitamin c) will take it right off when you put it right on the stain (even if your ph is high). Keep us informed, we all learn from each other, that is what is so great about this forum. I just saw the post about the ph - you can add the metal out, and the muriatic acid too. Make sure you add acid, wait a while then test again for ph - it takes a little while to get a true reading, and you don't want to go too low.

Hi, Summer,

You're on your way!! I'll bow out for now so you can get clear, simple advice from Marie (with nothing extraneous to just confuse you)....she's the metals guru!! (guruess?:)

Keep your Cl up to 20ppm every chance you get....I'll read your posts but Marie's the expert!!:) :)

Your willingness to learn shines thru in all your posts....you're gonna' love the bleach thing once you get your water clear.

Dave S.

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Originally Posted by mbar

. The reason it says not to add the chlorine till after the metal out is to allow time for the metal out to adhere to the metal in the water, so that it can be filtered out before the chlorine makes it come out of solution and fall onto the pool surface.

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Chemisty 101 here--sorry:D:D
Metal removers react with the metals and keep them in solution. The filter does NOT filter them out. Sometimes, if you are lucky, you can get the metal to precipitate out and stain your filter medium instead of your pool but there is no sure fire way of doing this. The seqestering agents just keep the metal in solution and in a form that it will not likely "fall out" of solution and form stains nor react with strong oxidizers (chlorine) and produce colored water. There is no easy way to remove the metal from the water short of draining and refilling with pure water. You CAN remove the stain by dissolving it back into the water and then help deactivate it's reactivity with the chlorine by sequestering it.
Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) oxalic acid, HCl (muriatic acid) all act as reducing agents on the metal stains which are usually in a higher oxidation state and convert them to a lower oxidation state which is water soluable. A seqestering agent will then react with the metal ion and help keep it from going back to that more oxidized state as quickly but the metal is STILL in the water.

Popcorngirl,
The fact that you had a copper ionizer and then coverted to chlorine and had some localized black spotting and streaks makes me very suspect that those might have been copper stains. The pool store told you the problem was copper, did they test for it?
Even if you did a complete water change there still might have been enough copper in the system to redisolve and then restain with a high oxidizer level of shocking.
You also seemed to have a secondary iron stain problem although it could also have been tannin stains from leaves. Once again testing would determine which.
The third problem is the algae (I assume it was green water....once again copper in the water can cause it to turn green...only testing for copper will tell you which it is)
You then added more copper with the Black Algaetrine along with a bunch of ammonia compounds (and some quats) which would eat up all your free chlorine and make an incredable chlorine demand in your pool. They would also decolor any algae in your pool as the algae ate the chloramines (nitrogen compounds are favorite algae food!)

At this point I sort of lost track of what is going on and am confused.
I am sure that if you did not have algae before you might now but I doubt it since you dosed the pool with copper and quats. You then put in metal out which effectively deactivated the copper as an algacide and I have NO IDEA what the hydrogen peroxide might have done but I assume it would have a similar action as monopersulfate and possibly oxidize some of the metal that the metal out had bound up and caused it to either color the water or stain again.

I have to admit that at this point I am lost but definately do NOT put a puck in your skimmer with a cartridge filter!

One final thing, you stated that when you brushed the brown stain with a metal brush it sent out clouds of brown stuff in the water. Could be mustard algae (more tan than brown) could be rust (iron oxide) that is coming loose because of the stain treatments and all the other stuff you put in the water or that didn't really stain but just precipitated out of the water, could be something else. If you can brush it and vacumn it to your filter and then clean the filter I would do that and get as much out of the water that you can, whatever it is!

One more final final thing:rolleyes:,
You said that you are using HTH super shock (which is cal hypo). I noticed you wondered or were suprised as to why you CH was 360ppm, this could be a reason) and pucks. Are the pucks HTH and are they by any chance the 'dual action' ones? If they are they contain --guess what--COPPER!

Thank you Waterbear for your chemistry lesson!!! I was under the impression that you could filter out the metals once they were binded on the sequestering agent - That's what I was told, and why I had to keep the pump running. But maybe it was so that it would stain the filter instead of the pool? I have successfully kept the stains away after using the treatmet without draining the water from the pool. I am still trying to figure out where metals get in my pool, and why sometimes I get staining and other times I don't., and it seems that I am not alone in this! I can get the stains off, but can't figure out how to prevent them yet. Is the solution to always keep enough sequestering agent in the pool, and keep the filter running 24/7? What do you think???

Thanks, Dave!
And thanks to you, too, Marie!
I really appreciate your help AND your patience.:)

Whew! Waterbear, I'm in awe.
Ok, Chemistry 101 -- I definitely need to sit down and reread this AFTER I put my kiddos to bed!
I will try to address/answer your questions/concerns, Waterbear...

First though, let me tell you what I've done today so far...
1)Added 1 quart of METAL OUT to the water.
2)Added ~1.5 quarts of MURIATIC ACID.
3)Waited 3 hours, retested the pH. It is now 7.4 :D
4)Added 4 gallons of liquid bleach.
My pool is now very cloudy which I'm sure is algae die-off.

--->>>QUESTION: Can I, or rather SHOULD I, add SuperBlue (water clarifier) tomorrow or is that now a No-No? I only ask because that is what I have been told to do for the past 4 years and I now suspect that I probably shouldn't.

As for the copper:
1) I converted from copper to chlorine 1.5 years ago (early fall of 2004).
2)Before converting, I personally tested the copper level and it was at ZERO; the pool store also tested and it was ZERO. We removed the copper bars and added METAL OUT before adding chlorine (just to be SURE). I had NO staining after switching to chlorine, and in fact, we swam without ANY staining issues last summer.
3)The black algae preceeded the switch to chlorine, so I really DO NOT think it is copper staining. Also, it was diagnosed by several different people who are familiar with black algae. And it ACTED like black algae: For example, I had to scrub it with a metal brush before it would respond to the algaecide.
4) Finally, I suspect it is black algae because, as they say, once you have it, you never truly get rid of it. And I will be the first to admit that I completely neglected my pool for a couple of months over the winter, so I was not surprised to see it back! Furthermore, at the start of LAST summer, I had a little bit of black algae and I used black algaetrine & scrubbed it like crazy and shocked at high chlorine levels and it went away; it didn't get worse.
This is why I'm convinced that it is not copper staining.

As for the pool store testing for copper, I have been told (by various people, both here on this board and elsewhere) that the copper builds up in the pool and is re-released over time. Also, the pool store's test was about a week after I had added the black algaetrine, so couldn't that have contributed to the positive copper reading? In any event, I have now (in the past 3 weeks) added 3 QUARTS (total) of METAL OUT.

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At this point I sort of lost track of what is going on and am confused.

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Me, too! :D

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I have to admit that at this point I am lost but definately do NOT put a puck in your skimmer with a cartridge filter!

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Don't worry; you've made a believer out of me!!! I will NEVER do that again!

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Could be mustard algae (more tan than brown)

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I have wondered about that...
Did you see the pics of the stain (it no longer looks like this)? Click here:
MY POOL 3 WEEKS AGO

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ou said that you are using HTH super shock (which is cal hypo). I noticed you wondered or were suprised as to why you CH was 360ppm, this could be a reason) and pucks

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I thought CH was calcium hardness (that's what I was referring to); how does the super shock affect that? I was surprised because the pool store had told me that it was 270 just 2 days before. What is the chemical relationship between the two? And what SHOULD my CH level be?
And finally,

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Are the pucks HTH and are they by any chance the 'dual action' ones? If they are they contain --guess what--COPPER!

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They're not. They are hth 3" stabilized chlorine (they don't say dual action and they don't mention copper -- just say they won't cause "over-stabilization").
WHEW!
I hope that helps clear things up a bit.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure the green is green algae; my pool water is SO warm already (it was 90 degrees here today) and the green stuff felt a tad slimy and it brushed off the walls VERY easily.
Ok, I think that's about it. Whaddaya think???
I'm open to any and all suggestions.
I'm so excited to FINALLY be on the right track! :)

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Originally Posted by PopcornGirl

I thought CH was calcium hardness (that's what I was referring to); how does the super shock affect that? I was surprised because the pool store had told me that it was 270 just 2 days before. What is the chemical relationship between the two? And what SHOULD my CH level be?
The shock you are using is calcium hypoclorite...operative word is calcium....it will cause your calcium levels to go up. However 360 ppm is certainly in range for a plaster pool. You might want to start shocking with sodium hypochlorie, however...usually called 'bleach'
And finally,
They're not. They are hth 3" stabilized chlorine (they don't say dual action and they don't mention copper -- just say they won't cause "over-stabilization").
As far as I know all the currently manufactured HTH 3" triclor pucks now contain copper. If they are older ones they might not. As far as not causing overstabilization...that is just marketing hype!
WHEW!
I hope that helps clear things up a bit.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure the green is green algae; my pool water is SO warm already (it was 90 degrees here today) and the green stuff felt a tad slimy and it brushed off the walls VERY easily.
Ok, I think that's about it. Whaddaya think???
I'm open to any and all suggestions.
I'm so excited to FINALLY be on the right track! :)

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With all the seqestering agent in your water metal should not be a problem for a while but be aware that they might still be lurking in your water to return when you least expect it.:eek:
I need to go over your numbers and think about them but it seems you are on the right track . Keep up the FC levels at schock level until the green is gone. vacumn the dead stuff up, and keep cleaning your filter and you will beat it.

As far as the brown stains they did look like iron but they also could have been tannin stains. Iron is pretty easy to lift off if the pH of the water is low enough.

Good luck!

Waterbear,
Ah, that makes sense! Thank you for explaining that; I had no idea the two were related. And I bet you're right about the tabs (pucks), too.

Ok, I retested everything this morning... no real surprises:
FC = ZERO :(
TC = < 0.5 :(
pH = 7.4
TA = 100
CYA = 50 ??? Is it normal to drop that much in 2 days??? It was 65 on Sunday!
CH = 370

Ok, so I added 5 more gallons of bleach early this morning (right after testing). It's kind of overcast here this morning so hopefully it will have some time to work before the sun hits it... I was afraid to let it sit all day in the heat without adding at least SOME chlorine!
Going to the store to buy MORE BLEACH today!!

Side Note: It *appears* as though the stains are GONE so maybe *something* worked (or all of it). I realize they could come back as I continue to bring my chlorine up, but I just wanted to note that now...
I'll check in again later,

sounds like you are on the right track..just get your FC up and keep it there. You might want to retest the cya...it's not the easiest test, it can be a bit subjective as to when that black dot dissappears! I try to do mine in the shade, hold the container at about waist level, and if the water is cold I let it come to room temp (indoor) because lower temp will slow down the reaction and could possibly casue a lower reading.

Oh, dear.
Only 5 hours after adding 5 gallons of 6% bleach (and yes, I checked to make sure it was still bleach -- not old/water), my FC is still ZERO and my TC is still <.5 ! :(
And I STILL have a LOT of green algae on my walls and floors...
QUESTION:
Would it be ok to add a quart of polyquat 60% to the pool to help with the algae problem? I'm afraid I am combatting two MAJOR chlorine-demand problems here (the algae & all the other stuff [stains, metal out, high CYA]) and it's going to cost me a fortune if I continue using only bleach...

I won't do ANYTHING unless y'all ok it, but I have spent so much on chemicals this month, it's REALLY putting a strain on my budget!!
HELP!

IMHO, you need to keep putting chlorine in there. What type of test kit are you using for FC and TC? Is it DPD (comparator cell with pink colors) or FAS-DPD (titration test)? The reason I ask is that DPD can bleach out with high chlorine levels. I don't think this is what is happening. I think you just have a big chlorine demand and the only thing that will take care of it is to satisfy your pool's "hunger" for chlorine right now but it is one possiblity that sprung to mind to explain your FC of 0. Bleach is NOT your only alternative. You might want to check around at the prices of liquid chlorine and cal hypo vs. bleach. Sometimes they can be a bit more economical (but usually not). Your CH is at the high normal end for a plaster pool but your TA is on the low side so I don't believe that cal hypo will be a problem. I personally would stay away from stablized chlorine with your CYA levels being as high as they are.

As far as polyquat, have never used it but my understanding is that it is more of a preventative than a treatment from what I have read on here.

Hope this helps. Keep the faith, you WILL be swimming soon!

Summer,

Remember my post calling for 4 gallons of bleach? Why are you putting in five gallons? Not enough is useless...too much is not good at all, unless you REALLY want to spend some money.. Just like Goldilocks, you've got to get your quantities "just right"?

Listen to the advice you're getting. Nothing is cheaper than bleach to fix your problems. Once your water is clear, you will use maybe 1-2 qts per day to keep your pool nice. Did you think you would have to use this much bleach all the time? If so, you need to do more reading.:) :)

Ben does not recommend polyquat for what you're trying to do. What makes you think it's cheaper, anyway?

Go get some more bleach and bring your Cl reading up to 18-20ppm.

Stay the course!!:) :)

Dave S.

popcorn, Read through this thread on polyquat all the way to the end. It looks like another forum member had some success using poly to get rid of an algae infestation...http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=486

Dave,

You are right; I'm getting ahead of myself. :o
Sorry about that.
I'm just REALLY dying to use my pool (my kids are driving me nuts, too!); it is already so hot here! I saw where parts of the country were getting snow yesterday... :eek:

Ok, ok; I will stick with 4 gallons of bleach, but how often should I add it?
I added 4 last night, 5 this morning, and everything is still zero.

Quote:

---

What type of test kit are you using for FC and TC? Is it DPD (comparator cell with pink colors) or FAS-DPD (titration test)? The reason I ask is that DPD can bleach out with high chlorine levels. I don't think this is what is happening. I think you just have a big chlorine demand and the only thing that will take care of it is to satisfy your pool's "hunger" for chlorine right now but it is one possiblity that sprung to mind to explain your FC of 0.

---

I am currently using a TAYLOR "Complete (High)" DPD drops kit.
:confused:

I guess I will just "keep on, keeping on."
I really want to order Ben's test kit, but it will definitely have to wait until next month's paycheck! <sigh>

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PopcornGirl

Dave,

You are right; I'm getting ahead of myself. :o
Sorry about that.
I'm just REALLY dying to use my pool (my kids are driving me nuts, too!); it is already so hot here! I saw where parts of the country were getting snow yesterday... :eek:

Ok, ok; I will stick with 4 gallons of bleach, but how often should I add it?
I added 4 last night, 5 this morning, and everything is still zero.

I am currently using a TAYLOR "Complete (High)" DPD drops kit.
:confused:
I wonder if you would run some tests as I describe and then post the results. I just want to eliminate something that I don't think is happening but I would like to be sure.
First, run a FC test and a TC test on your tap water...if both tests are 0 ppm then you can use tapwater for the rest of this...otherwise get a bottle of distilled water from the grocery.
If you read the instructions in the box lid of the Taylor kit (or is it in the book...haven't looked in a while) it describes a method of testing when the chlorine levels are high. If you look on the chlorine test comparator tube you will see a mark at 1.9 ml near the bottom and one about halfway (don't remember the measurement and am at work now so I can't look at mine)

The next test I would like you to do is FC ad TC using pool water to the half way mark and either the tap water that tested 0 or distilled water to the normal mark at the top and let me know what the readings are.
Finally , redo the FC and TC test filling to the 1.9 ml mark with pool water and the rest of the way with the tap or distilled water and post those results. I suspect they will all show 0 ppm chlorine BUT if you show readings higher than that as you dilute then it means the test is bleaching out. If you get a pink color on the dilutions please post the results and we can take it from there.

I guess I will just "keep on, keeping on."
I really want to order Ben's test kit, but it will definitely have to wait until next month's paycheck! <sigh>

---

I am pretty sure that this is NOT what is happening but I just want to be sure since you have dumped so much stuff into that pool at this point :eek:

Waterbear,
I have to go to a nursery meeting at church tonight, but I definitely want to do this! Like you, I don't think this is what's going on, but (like you) it's a nagging thought now in the back of my mind that I'd like to rule out.
I have to work for a couple of hours tomorrow morning (ebay business), but I will tackle this test and report back to you either late tonight or tomorrow afternoon.
I agree that this needs to be addressed, even if it is not the culprit!

By the way, I had a little GOTCHA moment earlier that made me realize how impatient I am acting... I walked out to my pool, frustrated, about an hour ago and the algae is CONSIDERABLY BETTER! I mean, a good 1/3 of it is gone!
Guess I'll quit whining now. ;)

Hi, Summer,

Complete waterbear's test. Like both of you, I don't think that's the problem but it's a good safety net.

Since I sorta' left you dangling on your clear water quest, I'm gonna' chime back in and offer some more steps.

How often do you add the four gallons? Only to bring your Cl up to 20 ppm. Now, (and you have arrived at this point) add enough Cl as often as you can to bring your ppm right back up to 20.

Let's say you put in the 4 gallons tonight and tomorrow morning your FC test at 4ppm (or even zero again). Use Michaels calculator to add enough clorox to bring it right back up to 20ppm...If you tested 4ppm, you'll need 3.2 more gallons to bring it back to 20ppm. Let;s say you come home for lunch and your FC test 10ppm....use the calculator again and you'll find you need 2 gallons to get it back to 20ppm.

Do you get the routine? Test as often as you can and calculate enough Clorox to bring your pool right back to 20ppm.

Here's what will happen....your test will show more and more FC as your pool clears. DON'T STOP!! Keep adding Clorox right back up to 20ppm until: You can hold 20ppm overnight. Once that occurs you will have gotten all the junk from your pool and you can let your Cl return down to about 6ppm.

That's it, Summer, your pool will sparkle and you can go swimming. Disregard the advice I gave you about adding Cl only at night......you have enough CYA in there to hold Cl during the day.

Now let me offer you three rules:

1. Bring your Cl up to 20ppm, test as often as you can, and add enought Cl to bring it back to 20ppm

2. Bring your Cl up to 20ppm, test as often as you can, and add enought Cl to bring it back to 20ppm

2. Bring your Cl up to 20ppm, test as often as you can, and add enought Cl to bring it back to 20ppm

Sorry to be a horse's patoot but It's important to emphasize what you should be doing now. I'll bet you'll be squared away in just a few days if you follow the three rules above! :D :D

Dave S.

Summer,
I have to add something to what Dave said.

Bring your Cl up to 20ppm, test as often as you can, and add enought Cl to bring it back to 20ppm!:D:D

Once it was sorted out that it was just a huge case of chlorine demand this is right on the money!......
you WILL be swimming soon!

THANK YOU SO much!!! :)

Dave, your no "horse's patoot!" I NEED the repitition and reinforcement!
And I'm very "task-oriented" so this is just the kind of instruction I need.
Ok... off to check ebay, bathe the baby, get the kiddos to bed, and THEN (if I haven't completely fallen out), to test the water/test kit.
:D
A mother's work is never done!

Drumroll please...

Ok, the tap water showed trace amounts of chlorine [~<.5 actually], so I got a glass of distilled (we had some on-hand already; my dh keeps a humidor [sp?]).
First I just tested the pool water, as usual:
pH: 7.4-7.6 (7.5?)
FC: <.5 (YAY!!! It's actually showing SOMETHING now...)
TC: >.5 (but less than 1)

Then, pool water to the half-way mark (4.5) + distilled to the fill line...
FC: ZERO
TC: <.5

Then, pool water to the lowest mark (1.8) + distilled water to the fill line...
FC: ZERO
TC: ZERO

So, I guess we're ok.
Plus, the pool is showing even more improvement, so it's definitely doing something, despite the low readings... I'm glad there is FINALLY some pink in the test results!!

Ok, I am DONE. Gonna hit the sack... G'night!

Just an update! My pool is FINALLY starting to hold Chlorine!

This morning's readings:
pH: 7.4
FC: 2-3 ppm
TC: 1.5 ppm
Couldn't be happier! :D

Wow. I'm just getting here from the other thread.

The only thing I'll add at this point is that I have been where you were, wondering if I'll ever get a FC reading in my pool again. When you have problems like you have had, it's important to understand how important it is to KEEP THE FC AT 20 PPM until it holds.

You are fighting a war and CL is your ammunition. But, you're using it up as you fight, so you have to continuously and constantly RELOAD.

In the near future, your water will be clearer than ever before.

You're getting good advice; follow it. My post is really for encouragement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PopcornGirl

Just an update! My pool is FINALLY starting to hold Chlorine!

This morning's readings:
pH: 7.4
FC: 2-3 ppm
TC: 1.5 ppm
Couldn't be happier! :D

---

You are NOT out of the (green:rolleyes:) water yet! You still have a big chlorine demand going oin and over half the chlorine left in your pool is CC. Get the FC up to 20 ppm again and keep doing it until it is holding, Keep vacumning the dead algae, keep rinsing off the filter! You are Almost There!!!!!!
GOOD JOB!

After several days of diligent bleach pouring & water testing and a WHOLE LOT of hand-holding/babysitting by some VERY helpful members on this board... I would like to report that my pool is now BLUE!
There are NO stains so far and the algae is all but gone (there is still some in the crevices by the stairs and a couple of very small patches in the deep end).
AND this morning's CL readings (maintained overnight) were:
FC: 7-8 ppm
TC: 5-6 ppm
pH is still at 7.4 :D
YES, I *KNOW*: "Keep adding bleach and testing until it gets to and STAYS at 20ppm.."
See? I have been paying attention!
And I WILL continue to do that until it holds 20ppm OVERNIGHT.
But I am just so happy and RELIEVED and thankful to all of you for helping me get through this crisis and helping me get switched over to bleach!
If things continue at this rate, I'll post a pic of my sparkling, clear pool TOMORROW!
I can't say THANKS enough, but I had a *very* good ebay week so I splurged and purchased Ben's new test kit today... I figure if I'm going to do this, I may as well get educated and do it right! ;)
VERY, VERY HAPPY,

Summer,
Congratulations, You did it! I TOLD you that you would be swimming soon! ;)

Yep, I'm almost there!
Here's how my pool looked this morning...
MY POOL NOW

Your pool looks great!! I posted to your other thread about ph. Keep the chlorine flowing!

good job! I read this thread after doing a search on 'black streaks' because this is what I noticed in my spa today when I went in. I have a black bottom plaster / Gunite new pool, and water has only been in for 2 weeks now. I think I may be doing something wrong because so many streaks appeared in just a couple of days. I tried using the magic eraser I got at Leslies. When I scrub the streaks some parts of the streak flakes off an then there are parts of the same streak that are more embedded and much more difficult to remote and I don't want to ruin the plaster.

I will repost w/ test #'s

just tested my water and my Clorine level is 0 - what is a good level to keep it @? I have been adding liquid chlorine about 2.5 gallons over the two week period and it seems to drop very quickly in this 90F degree weather. The pool plumber came by the day after it was filled to get the filter and pumps working and the next day just to check on everything. He said he will come by in a few weeks to add salt in the pool untill then he told me to just keep adding liquid chlorine.

The PH is about 7.6 I have added muriated a few times untill the ph was steady.

The pool is about 15k gallons. here are some pics www.michael.schmidts-online.com