Stains returning

After I did the ascorbic acid and the seqestering agent my pool looked great. I slowly raised the chlorine level with bleach and a couple of pucks in the feeder. My PH didn't drop much, so I added a little Borax. Now about 2 weeks later I see the stains returning. I backwashed the filter after the treatment. I added to my last post but got no response. All my readings are there. I just added more sequestering agent in the hopes it will clear up without another dose of ascorbic acid. I can't figure out what is going on. I haven't added well water, and my well is not supposed to have any iron anyway.

HELP !

Marty

You either did not have enough sequestering agent in the water or you brought your chlorine levels up too quickly. Or possibly you brought you pH up too high with the borax. Post your numbers, it would help.

Thanks Waterbear,
I had put my readings in the earlier post I had edited. I added another bottle of sequestering agent last night (supposed to treat 20k gallons, I have 18k) I do think it looks a little whiter this morning. Here are my readings, the only change seems to be the CYA. FC=1.5; CC=0.5; TC=1.5; pH=7.4; ALK=70; CAL=30; CYA=100; TEMP=85. Will I need to add sequesterant on a regular basis to prevent staining?
Again thanks for your help.
Marty

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MartyW

Thanks Waterbear,
Will I need to add sequesterant on a regular basis to prevent staining?
Again thanks for your help.
Marty

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Yes, keep adding the recommended maintenance dose and you need to keep an eye on your pH...don't let it get above 7.6 or staining could occur again.

So if I understand this, the metal is in the water and it can't be removed? I will always have to use a sequesterant as routine maintenance? Is there other sources to purchase it in larger quantities?
Thanks for you help

Marty

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MartyW

So if I understand this, the metal is in the water and it can't be removed?
pretty much, unless you drain and refill with water that has no metal or the metal comes out of the water as stain.
I will always have to use a sequesterant as routine maintenance? Is there other sources to purchase it in larger quantities?
Not that I know of but the maintenance dose is only a couple of oz. ususally every week or two....sometimes you can get by putting it in once a month.
Thanks for you help

Marty

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hope this helps.

Thanks again, I appreciate all your help.

Marty

I am going to be using Metal Magic by ProTeam this week and it (in theory) will make the iron in the water "crystallize" so that it can be filtered and vaccuumed out.

You aren't Marty Weston by any chance are you?

No, the last name is Wagner. Let me know how the Metal Magic works. I suspect my metal is probably copper from my heater, although I really try to keep my pH high enough to keep it from leaching the copper out.

Thanks Marty

I will post after I use the metal magic.. I think it's scheduled for delivery tomorrow. Marie (mbar) is also trying it out, she is actually who gave me the idea to try it.

I would think your heater is where the metals (copper) are coming from. I don't have a heater so hopefully once I deal with the metals they will be out, until I have to add water or something.

Marty, If you keep your alkalinity in range - 80 - 120, and your calcium in range - with fiberglass I keep mine at 150 - 200, you can keep your ph as low as 7.0, and it won't damage the heater. If you have a fiberglass pool that is having staining issues, then I would keep the ph at 7.2, and no higher than 7.4. Keeping sequestering agent in at all times.

Gerri, Take your ph down to 7.2 - with the additional sequestering agent, the stains should lighten up till you use the metal magic. Let me know how it goes. I haven't used it yet. I just got home from vacation and am having company, so I won't get to it for a while.

Everyone says to keep the pH low to prevent the stains from coming back. I thought too low of a pH (acidic) would cause the copper to be leached out of the heater and subsequently cause more stains. Do I have it backwards?

Marty

Anything below 7 is acidic, anything above is ok. If you have good alkalinity, at least 80, and a ph of 7.2, you will not leach out any copper.

Thanks, Marie,

When I last tested my ALK was 70. I have a vinyl liner. What should I try to keep it? What do I use to raise it without screwing up anything else?

Thanks, Marty

You can keep your alkalinity anywhere from 80 to 125. You can use baking soda for just raising alkalinity. It will raise your ph a little, but then you can take your ph down with muriatic acid. You use borax for just raising the ph. It is a good idea to keep the ph and alkalinity on the low side when you are dealing with metals. Feel free to ask any other questions you may have, I know how confusing it is at first, but you will get the hang of it!

I'd be very interested in the results after using Metal Magic. I have some minor metal staining that I've been delaying dealing with. However, my main problem is high CA. I am running about 650 due to extremely hard fill water. The Pool Team web site says that when using the prescribed dosage, it removes scale and CA will be reduced to a level of 350 - 375 ppm. That alone is reason enough for me to give it a shot.

Also, who did you order it from? I could not find an order page on the site.

Please keep us posted.

I will be trying metal magic most likely tomorrow. I need to raise my Ph a little to try it, it says best results at 7.5 or higher, mine is 7 right now. I will post results afterwards. I ordered mine on Ebay. It's in someone's ebay store. If you can't find it post again and I found some other sources by checking many Google results for "ProTeam Metal Magic".

Many pool stores carry the ProTeam line. Check around.

Thanks Marie, I appreciate all of your help.

This message is for Vicki who sent me a private message. I tried to answer but I'm not sure if I did it correctly. My staining problem sounds different than yours. My best suggestion is for you to post your problem on the forum and let the people with a lot more experience help you like they helped me.
Thanks again to everyone who responded.

Marty

This sounds like a problem I’m having. Still waiting for a better test kit I ordered (not Bens) to post better numbers.
How did the Metal Magic work? My arms are getting tiered from scrubbing the walls, and my wife thinks I’m crazy for using so much bleach in pool but I need to keep it at shock level.

When you post numbers, we will be able to see what is going on with the pool. If you can scrub off the stains, then they probably aren't from metals.

Yes I need to post my numbers.
I'm going to the pool store today so they can test for metals.
I just wanted to know if the Metal Magic worked so if I do have metals I will pick up some at the store.

PS. the stains on my walls will not come off

I would pick some up. I haven't tried it yet - I have some, but have not had any staining yet. I have read some posts on the board who have used it. It may not take the stains that have been there for a long time off - but once they are off with ascorbic acid, it is supposed to turn the metals into crystals so that they can be filtered out. YOur water may not test positive for metals if the metal has already precipitated out onto the surface of the pool. If you post your numbers, I will help you through the stain removal.

Thank you

I'll post numbers tonight

The pool store said I did not have any Copper or Iron in the water.
I’m giving you the numbers from my new test kit not from the store.

CA=32
PH=7.8
TA=130
CH=90
CYA= 85


I did the Vitiam C test (it took it off) and was told at the pool store to use algaecide so I thought I was fighting algae so I was keeping my CA high and scrubbing the pool.
They did not have any Metal Magic so they sold me United Chemical Pool Stain Treat to get the stains off.
Thank you for your help.

one more thing it's a 25000 gal kidney shaped pool with a heater
DE filter

I used metal magic - while it wasn't exactly magical about taking off some tough old iron stains it did further lighten them - nothing so far has completely removed them though so it worked as well as Ascorbic Acid and better than Oxalic. One thing I do notice though is that I had little granules on the bottom after a couple of days. They were rust colored.. so possibly, and just maybe it did cause the iron I have to drop out of the water. I'm still seeing a bit of it each day and I'm cleaning it out each day. It looks like rust colored sand. It did take me a week to get my water clear again after the metal magic treatment, so I didn't post before now about results because I really couldn't tell about the stains. They are still there a bit, but lighter than ever. I think 1 more AA treatment may do the trick.

United sells the Oxalic Acid treatment, so that's what you have from the pool store. You need to drop your chlorine down to 0 and lower your Ph to 7 or 7.2 and then do the treatment, that way you will get the best results with it. Expect cloudy water and after 48 hours start bringing your Cl back in gradually. If the Oxalic doesn't work I would have to recommend the Ascorbic Acid treatment and preparation is the same for that treatment as well. Running high Cl will be making your stains stick better so lower it and stop running at shock levels, if the stains aren't organic (algae and such) then it won't take them off and you're making matters worse.

Good luck with it. Let us know how it goes with the United (Oxalic) treatment. :)

Is CA chlorine? If so your chlorine is high along with high ph which will make any metal that was in the water fall out onto the surface of the pool. United chemical is an oxalic acid. It will bring down your ph, along with your chlorine. With such a high chlorine level it may take a lot of stain treat, because the chlorine will eat up the oxalic acid. Even though your water didn't test for metals, it was in there - it can come from many things, fertilizer is one. Is your pool a plaster or vinyl or fiberglass. If it is plaster a calcium of 90 is not enough, you need 200 - 400 in a plaster pool. If it is vinyl or fiberglass 90 is fine.

I would suggest letting your chlorine fall to normal level before doing the stain treat (so that you will not need as much product) - which for a cya of 90 would be 10ppm. You can use some muriatic acid to get your ph down while waiting for the chlorine to drop - I would take it down to 7.2 - 7.4. Your alkalinity is a little high also, it should not be higer than 120. Then you can do the stain treat, which will bring down you ph and alkalinty. Post your numbers after the stain treat - let me know if all of the stains come off. Good luck.

Hi Gerri, It sounds like the metal magic does turn the metals into crystals - I would put a little more ascorbic acid in, so it will lift the stains off, then combine with the metal magic to get rid of it. Metal magic sells an ascorbic acid based product to use along with the metal magic too, so that's why the stubborn stains didn't come off with just the metal magic. Hopefully this will be the cure!! Please let us know how it goes.

Roddapool, Gerri is right about the low chlorine and ph to get the united chemical stain treat to work better, but it is ok to use with chlorine, it will just use up the chlorine in the process. It will take the chlorine and ph down on it's own. It will tell you on the container that you can use it with chlorine and ph. It just doesn't tell you that you will need more product to do the work. So it is up to you. Let us know if it doesn't take all of the stain off - because there are other ways to get it off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mbar

Metal magic sells an ascorbic acid based product to use along with the metal magic too, so that's why the stubborn stains didn't come off with just the metal magic. Hopefully this will be the cure!! Please let us know how it goes.

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Marie, I do not think that Proteam sells an ascorbic acid treatment. As far as I know Metal Magic is their only stain treatment and seqesterant. NaturalChemisty does sell ascboric acid under the name of 'Stain Free'. It costs about $30/lb.

I must have mixed it up with another product, I thought I read somewhere that you had to remove some of the stubborn stains first, getting them off the surface of the pool, so they could be removed by the metal magic - sorry.

Thank you for all the info sounds like I'm on the right track.

One more thing, as I was cleaning out the filter I noticed that the filter elem. had a redish/brown stain on it. Does that sound like the same as my lyner and should I do the same treatment (soaking it in a garbage can) before or after I do the Pool.

I sounds like the same thing that is on the pool. I would soak the filter after. What happened is that the some of the stain fell out on the filter - which is what you would want, because then the metal is out of the water. It is hard to do this specifically, but it is a great thing! The reason I would do it afterwards, is that you will probably get some staining on the filter while doing the stain treatment. So it is up to you - you can do it before, but you will probably get some more, so it will be double work. In any case if all of the stain doesn't come off the surface of the pool, let us know.

Marie -

I have been following all of these threads with high interest and was wondering if you have summarized the process for removing the stains (the full treatment). I have stains on my plaster pool which I have been battling with Jacks blue magic but since I have an SWG I have a rather high PH and I typically keep the FC at 3-5ppm. Based on all the threads I am still a little confused on exactly what steps to take to get rid of these nasties. LEt me take a shot at this and let me know how close I am -

1) Bring PH down to 7.0-7.2 --> Muriatic acid
2) Reduce chlorine as much as possible as it will eat up the absorbic acid
3) Add absorbic acid to remove the stains and filter?
- How much #'s per 10,000 gallons?
- Filter or not? How long?
4) Keep adding muriatic acid to keep the PH down and do not add any more chlorine
5) When do I add the sequestor? When the stains dissappear or before? --> sounds like ProTeam Magic is the stuff to add.
6) I have a DE filter, I assume that as the ProTeam Magic causes the metals to fall out, I should vacuum them and then backwash my filter.
7) Once all stains are gone then add bleach slowly to raise the CHlorine backup. Keep the PH around 7.2- 7.4. Also check the Calcium level as some of it may have precipated out, correct?


Does that sound correct? Please let me know if I got the gist of this, I will probably take a stab at doing this next week.

Thanks much
John

John, you have it down pretty well. You will need about 1 to 2 lbs of ascorbic acid for 10,000 gal. It really depends on how much staining you have. Once you take the ph & chlorine down - you won't have to take it down anymore - the ascorbic acid will do that. When you add the ascorbic acid wlak around the pool dropping down the sides of the wall, put your filter on circulate if you have that mode - if not just keep it filtering. You can add the sepuesterer right away - you want the metals to bind with the sequesterer as soon as they are lifted off the surface of the pool. Keep the filter running 24/7, after all of the stains are gone, and 24 hours have passed, you can start to bring up your ph - sometimes it takes a while, although some people don't get the low ph from the ascorbic acid, I always did. Metal Magic says to use when the ph is above 7.5, so if you use Metal Magic, I would put that in before the ascorbic acid while your ph is high. It probably will bring down the ph, that's why they want you to use it with a higher ph. You can put this in right before the ascorbic acid, however long it will take it to circulate through the water.

After 48 hours you can start to raise your chlorine level slowly. It will take a while to hold, so you have to keep adding it to get it to hold at the low end of your chlorine demand for the amount of cya you have. I like to use regular bleach to raise the chlorine slowly, because you can control the amount you use. You can also put a trichlor puck in the skimmer while you are starting to raise the chlorine - this way any metal that is going to stain when it hits the chlorine will stain on the filter. Do not put the bleach in the skimmer while a trichlor puck is in it - you can pour it in the water by the return jet. If you see any staining start to come back, lower the ph back to 7.2 and add some more sequesterer. The important thing is to get all of the metals that come off the surface sequestered, so they don't fall back out when the chlorine is raised. If you have a lot of staining you will need a lot of sequestering agent - more than the bottle says. Don't get worried if the water gets cloudy - just keep the filter running. If you are afraid of algae, you can add a dose of polyquat before you do the stain treatment. I have never gotten algae while doing a stain treatment, but I usually had to do them in the beginning of the summer when the weather was not hot, and the water was cold. Hope you can understand all of this - if you have any questions please feel free to ask. Good luck. If you need a link to find ascorbic acid let me know.

Marie -

Thank you for your quick reply. I will keep you informed on my progress and how well this method works with plaster pools. Hopefully all will go well :)

regards
John

Between waiting for the CL to go down and all the rain we’ve been having I finally had a chance to add chem. to remove stains and the pool has never looked so good in the two years we’ve owned the pool, and this is the first year I’ve taken care of it myself.

Here are my numbers now
CL - 0
PH – 7.2
TA – 0
CH – 70
CYA – 100

I know I have to add bleach slowly what about my TA

You will have to raise your alkalinity. Ascorbic acid, or some stain removers are very acidic and can bring your ph and alkalinity down. You will need to add baking soda to take your alkalinity up to 80 - 125. Since you were dealing with stains, I would keep the alkalinity on the low side - about 80. Your ph is good for now, because you will need to start to add the chlorine. Just add it slowly.

With a 25,000 gal pool, you will need 28 lbs of baking soda to take you to 80 alk. I would put in 14 lbs, wait about 2 hours, check and then add more till you get to 80. Bring up your chlorine to 8ppms right away. With a cya of 100, you need a minimum of 8ppms of chlorine in your pool. You can take it up higher if you have any combined chlorine, but you would want to do it slowly so you can watch for some stains reappearing. If stains start to reappear, then you need to make sure your ph is no higher than 7.2, and add more sequesterer.

Feel free to ask any other questions you may have:)