Am I choosing a good combination? pump & filter size

Ok, I started a post last yr, then picked it back up this summer and after 4 pages of questions ( and me researching & reading on here), I think Ive simplified it down to this:

I have a 24' round above ground pool. 52" deep which I think is approx. 12k gallons of water? My old 1.5hp pump and 200lb sand filter are both cracked and didnt filter properly anyways. Here is the 2 I have chose to replace them with. Before I order, Id love for several of you experienced pool owners to offer you opinion. Is this Hayward 1hp, 2speed pump, a good fit for this 21" (200lb) sand filter? Or would you go with a 250lb or 300lb sand filter? Would getting a big sand filter hinder the ability of this pump to operate on low?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=AWFPPQUZBOHNP

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Unless my math is wrong, 24 ft X 52" = 14,440 gal. If you only fill to 48" (4ft), then it's 13,500.

I was going to answer your other post but it looks like you started this new one for clarity. If I were spending the money and it was my pool, I'd go with your 1-HP, 2-speed pump BUT I would buy the 300# sand filter. The sand filter will work better for filtration on low speed and, given the larger area of the filter, there will be slightly less head-loss on the pump. Not to leave out that you will also be able to go longer between backwashes.

Also, your previous post has valuable pictures in it which show that both your skimmer and returns are very close to one another (not the best arrangement but it is what it is) and very close to your equipment (less than a few feet of pipe). Therefore your plumbing has very low head-loss due to the short runs from equipment to pool. If you re-plumbed everything in 1-1/2" SCH40 PVC pipe, your pump will have more than enough power, even at low speed, to circulate and clean the water in your pool. My gut feeling is you will probably only ever use the high speed on the pump to do vacuuming and filter backwashing.

That's my final opinion on the matter for whatever it's worth. Good luck with your purchases.

ok thank you so much for all your help in my previous posts! I can get the larger sand filters for $36 (250lb) more and $46 (300lb) more so I am very willing to do that. I got info overload from reading on here and somehow got it in my head that running the pump on low might be too "weak" to push it thru a bigger sand filter.......and the whole point in getting a 2 speed was so that I could mainly use it on low.I don't think I ever fully understood how it all works but I was very aware that the 1.5hp was way to big. My husband is a plumber so I should be able to get him to replumb all that like you said. So this 300lb sand filter will hook up to the above pump just fine even though it says its for in-ground pools?

http://www.amazon.com/Hayward-S244T-...27+sand+filter

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...psodjmd4oc.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...psn6i92py0.jpg

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Originally Posted by leena

So this 300lb sand filter will hook up to the above pump just fine even though it says its for in-ground pools?

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The distinction is arbitrary. The controlling factors that go into sizing a sand filter (or any filter) are water volume and turn-over rate. My in-ground pool has a volume only slightly bigger than your above-ground pool (16,000 gal versus 14,400 gal). However, my equipment pad has much larger pumps and filters because of the longer plumbing runs and various water features; therefore I need bigger pumps to run my pool. So labelling a pump as "above-ground" or "in-ground" is really nonsense. What matters is how much water you need to move and filter and the best way to do that in a reasonable amount of time.

ok, Im planning on ordering the Hayward 1hp, 2 speed pump SP15922S Power Flo Matrix and the Hayward S244T Pro(300lb) Sand filter thru amazon. Its thru Pool Supplies Superstore which was a little disappointing. Had hoped for Amazon Prime but its still free shipping.

So If anyone sees a potential problem with this combination, please chime in soon as I plan to make the order today. Thanks, will post my results when we get it all hooked up. Hope to take a pic of my before and after water.

And POOL sand from Home Depot or Lowes is ok?

No idea on sand (I'm a DE filter guy) but I would say as long as it is pool sand then wherever it is cheapest....

Good luck and I look forward to seeing the pictures.

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So labelling a pump as "above-ground" or "in-ground" is really nonsense.

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Sorry but I have to disagree with this. There are some fundamental differences between a AG pump and an IG pump. Most AG pumps are NOT self priming so would not work on an IG pool at all. Also, the rating of AG pumps tends to be much higher than the equivalent IG pump. For example, a 2 HP Optiflo (AG) has about the same flow rate as a 1/2 HP Northstar (IG) so you need to be really careful about using an IG pump on a AG pool because it could very easily exceed the maximum flow rate of the filter.

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Originally Posted by mas985

Sorry but I have to disagree with this. There are some fundamental differences between a AG pump and an IG pump. Most AG pumps are NOT self priming so would not work on an IG pool at all. Also, the rating of AG pumps tends to be much higher than the equivalent IG pump. For example, a 2 HP Optiflo (AG) has about the same flow rate as a 1/2 HP Northstar (IG) so you need to be really careful about using an IG pump on a AG pool because it could very easily exceed the maximum flow rate of the filter.

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mas985 is perfectly correct. However, I use the Hayward Superpump 1hp 2spd with a Hayward 200# top-mount sand filter and have for a dozen years with no problem. I could use it with a bigger filter and if I ever have to replace the filter I will. However, with my pump you cannot safely use a smaller filter. In-ground pumps are usually "full-rated" and AG pumps are usually "up-rated", meaning loosely they are assigned more HP than they have. More simply, a 1hp up-rated will not flow nearly as much water as a 1 hp full-rated.

Sunny, I'm going to say it again: Please check your information before you post it.

ok, so you are saying the pump & filter I have picked out IS OKAY together or NOT OKAY together for my pool? 1hp, 2speed above ground pump and the 300lb in ground filter........both Hayward

There is only $10 difference in the 250lb or 300lb filter but I don't understand about the sizing so am just going by what everyone says about the bigger sand filters being better

Quote:

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Originally Posted by leena

ok, so you are saying the pump & filter I have picked out IS OKAY together or NOT OKAY together for my pool? 1hp, 2speed above ground pump and the 300lb in ground filter........both Hayward

There is only $10 difference in the 250lb or 300lb filter but I don't understand about the sizing so am just going by what everyone says about the bigger sand filters being better

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It is perfectly reasonable to contact Hayward and ask if the pump, filter and your pool are compatible, but given the description of your pool, a round AG pool, I personally don't foresee any problem. But the final decision, as always, is yours.

Thanks, I just ordered them. Went back & read my old posts & was surprised that I have battled the same problems with the too big pump/small filter for 3 yrs! And I found this EXACT PUMP recommended for my pool back in the beginning, so that helps my feelings that its the right one for me!
I did however learn a whole lot about balancing water during this time. I have seen water go from unbelievably filthy dark green to clear in a week or less many times & I was basically keeping the pool useable with SKIMMER SOCKS for the last 2 yrs!. It really is all about the water balance. Now when I hear people say they drained their pool & refilled cause it was "to far gone", Im thinking that that surely they didn't have to do that. And really the bleach, baking soda & borax has been so easy to use that I don't even look at pool chemicals anymore. Ive never had to have any other chemical other than those 3 to get the water clean. The only "pool store chemical" that I still use is the "sink" stuff that I would use atleast once a yr to settle the little particles that never got filtered out because of my poor filtering system. Then I would vaccum to waste with the bucket method. So Im so excited to finally be getting this smaller pump that has LOW SPEED too! Surely, surely this is gonna make taking care of my pool so much easier.........

Oh & I do use chlorine tabs some for ease. Since I have that leak & have to add water ea week, I quit worrying about my CYA levels getting too high..........

Please understand that "BBB" is a mindset not a dogma. It was suggest that "ABC" for Acid(muriatic), Borax, and Chlorine would be better, but...everything is "ABC" and "BBB" is catchier!
When my CYA is low and my pH is high, I use Tri-Chlor tabs without a second thought. Because the regular testing tells me when to stop.

I actually almost never use Baking Soda because I ONLY use it when my T/A is low and my pH isn't stable. If T/A is as low as 50 or 60, but my pH is stable, I just don't worry about it. Now that only hold for a vinyl pool. For a hard-side pool, T/A and Calcium levels are more important to protect the mortar, grout, plaster, etc.

I use either Borax or Muriatic Acid a little more often and generally rely on liquid chlorine. I use LC because, where I get it, it's cheaper than bleach. 5 Gal of 12.5% LC at $19 is equivalent to less than $2/gallon of bleach. Otherwise, I'd use bleach.

I too rarely use baking soda, even though I bought a big bag when I first got interested in the bbb method. It just doesnt seem to be frequently needed. And when I say "bleach" I assumed that meant liquid chlorine as well because I do use liquid chlorine sometimes if I can get it for a comparable price to the laundry bleach. I thought they were basically the same thing, just stronger more concentrated.

I already said I use the tabs for ease when Im not worried about my cya, so maybe Im not a true BBB. In my mind they are all Chlorines and thats what Im thinking of when Im needing to control my water. So maybe I should say that I use the Chlorine/baking soda/borax method since I use various forms of chlorine, lol!

I just feel that the BBB method made it possible for pool owners to better understand what they were doing, versus the endless expensive nightmare of buying pool chemicals that said "for cloudy water, for green water, for high this, for low that". I was amazed to discover that filtering and chlorine seem to be the 2 main things for beautiful water which suddenly seemed to make it simple! I didnt need a zillion bottle of this & that, which was such a relief. Im excited to finally have a good pump & filter system & hopefully its going to be even easier!

One of my friends is a die hard pool chemical person and she stated that after doing it for 25 yrs she knew exactly what she needed and it cost her roughly $500 in chemicals per summer to maintain her pool. (& her pool is smaller than mine)
I of course am an idiot using BBB but I dont spend near that in chlorine,borax
& baking soda

ok, my sand filter has arrived and I am expecting the pump today or tomorrow so Im excited about getting them hooked up and running. One thing I was wondering.......I need to scrub the walls of my pool to remove the residue from when the pool water was green, earlier this spring. Its been 2 or 3 weeks since I killed the algae, but the water is still chilly so I haven't gotten in and scrubbed the walls yet. I did vacuum to waste the bottom of the pool after killing the algae, but you can tell there is a slightly green tint to the walls. My question is this: Would it hurt to scrub the walls and let the new filter remove the dead algae or would it be better to let it settle to bottom and vacuum to waste? Starting out with a new filter I don't want to "gunk" it up with something that will be hard to get rid of. That may not even be an issue, it may rinse out easily, but I've never had a good filtering system (mine always just blew the dead algae back into the pool) so Im not familiar with how dead algae particles affect a sand filter...........

ok everything is here and we are installing the new filter and pump! I immediately wasn't sure about how to hook it up etc but I did tell my husband what sunny said about using pvc pipe. Since my husband is a plumber, he was fine with that but he told me to leave him alone and just let him hook everything up how he wanted, lol! So I guess we will adjust from that point if any problems arise. SO excited, cant wait to turn it on!

I did get in the water and scrub the leftover green residue from pool walls. Some of it settled to the bottom but a lot of it is still floating in the water. SInce no one responded to my question about the dead algae particles above, I plan to vacuum to waste what is on the floor of pool and let the rest filter thru sand filter. Hope this is ok, if not I can put some floc in there and let it all settle to bottom, then vacuum.............

Vacuuming to waste sounds just fine. You refill your pool regularly anyway so must have decent fill water. I would not use floc. Once the big stuff is gone, to help remove the finer particles you can add DE to your filter. Works a treat. http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...to-sand-filter

ok thanks! pool had to be filled up several inches (because of the leak and hardly no rain for 2 weeks) so we didn't get to turn on the pump last night. Hopefully husband going to do all that when he gets home in a couple hrs.....

ok the pump has been running for a couple of hrs. BOy is it quiet compared to the old one! Going to leave it on low all night and see how the water looks in morn. I did vacuum to waste (it vacuumed on low!) but the water is hazy since I scrubbed all that green residue from walls. Oh I had another question. We put 300lbs of sand in the filter but my husband said it was between 1/2 and 3/4 full. Is that normal? our 2 old sand filters (200lb) were more than 3/4 of the way filled up......

Outta my league to answer that one. My sand filter is about 3/4. However if it's working.....

Let's see if someone with equipment expertise chimes in.

after 24 hrs with the new pump and filter, it drastically improved the clarity of my water. Before I always had to add floc and let the remaining dead algae particles settle then vacuum to waste. Id repeat the letting it settle and vacuum constantly to keep my water clear. I only added floc once a yr. It seemed to stay in the water bc even the small particles would sink to the bottom for several weeks after using the floc.
However, this time I just wanted to see if the new filter and pump would do anything. So I didn't add the floc. I killed the algae then vacuumed to waste twice. However the water was still very hazy from the tiny dead algae particles that were floating around and wouldn't settle to the bottom. So I hooked up the new filter and pump and after 24 hrs, big difference, after 3 days.. clear water. That was running it on low. Running on low, the heavy stuff still sank to the bottom so I stirred it up but it didn't seem to filter it out bc the water flow was so gentle. The big stuff just sank back to bottom. So I stirred it up again and ran filter on high for 24 hrs. This did get more of the big stuff out, you could def see the water moving around the pool, but some still settled to the bottom. My electric co shows electrical use every 24 hrs so I could see that runnin it on high did increase my energy use more.
SO I think I will run on low for 3 hrs ea day or every other day, vacuum to waste anything that settles to bottom. This is the first time I'd gotten clear water after an algae outbreak without having to add something to make the tiny particles settle to bottom, so I know that a properly sized pump and sand filter DOES actually filter stuff out. My old setup (1.5hp single speed with 200lb sand filter)didn't appear to filter out anything, not even bugs much less small dead algae particles.
Still not sure about the sand though...........................it is working................so will leave it for now until I find more info on how much sand to put in the filter...........

WEll its been a few weeks now and I have the clearest water I've had in 2 yrs. I run it on low for a few hrs a day, sometimes I skip 2 or 3 days, then let it run all day. Ive only let it run overnight once or twice and Ive discovered a problem. After it runs on low for a long time ( i notice it after 8 to 10 hrs), it acts like it is "clogged". I discover this when I notice there appears to be no water movement in pool. Sure enough when I put my hand over the return hardly any water is coming out. I turn off the pump, turn it to rinse, run for a few seconds, then backwash for a few seconds and when I turn it back to filter, everything is back to normal. This only seems to happen when I leave it on for over 6 hrs or more. What is happening?
If my pool were filthy this would make sense but its relatively clean and with a 300lb filter it shouldnt need to be backwashed every day. Its not real dirty looking when I backwash so surely the sand isnt clogged with dirt. Something isnt right but I dont understand enough about sand filters to even begin to guess.
I did have all that dead algae in the beginning but shouldnt all that have flushed out after a couple of rinses and backwashes?
We put in 6-50lb bags of pool filter sand but the filter was only maybe a little over half full. COuld this have anything to do with it?
Or is it the fact that Im running it on low and its a 300lb filter? Maybe even a little bit of dirt clogs the sand enough that the pump cant push the water thru?

No, it shouldn't be that the filter is too big for the pump. Something else is going on. Usually new sand doesn't filter quite as well as old sand so that's probably not the problem. And the dead algae SHOULD be gone.

When you back wash, is the back wash water cloudy in the site glass? Or clear?

Why not put the pump on a timer and run it for 2 hours 2 or 3 times a day and see if that does away with the problem? It would be a work-around.

I must admit I'm thinking something ELSE is going on, either in the multi-valve or in the filter's laterals.

Bc of my leak that I can't find, I'm always struggling with losing/adding water. So it makes me cringe when I backwash and watch all the water pouring out. This makes me wonder if maybe I haven't rinsed all that dead algae out bc I only run it on rinse and backwash for seconds, not minutes. But the water in site glass is not dirty so didn't see any point in wasting my water. However, maybe I should rinse and backwash real good once to thoroughly clean filter? What is the "proper" way to do it? Turn hand to left until it says rinse, run 1full min, turn handle even farther left to backwash, run another full min, then turn handle back to the right until back in the filter position?

Well, you are on the right track:
First, you turn it to waste (rinse?) for about 30 seconds. Then to backwash. After you turn it to backwash, the sight glass will be clear at first, then go cloudy, and finally go clear again.
At that point you turn it to waste again for another 30 seconds and you're done.

Always run waste and backwash on high speed. Turn OFF the pump's power between switching between settings.

Well Done Leena for getting your pump and filter sorted, sorry not been around but my IP address frequently gets blocked by the administrator so I can't view the forum.

Carl your post doesn't make sense to me. Why turn to waste or is it rinse? before backwashing?
Waste setting bypasses the filter inside the multiport so just flushes water away (ok when vacuuming gunk directly out to waste)
Rinse puts the water through the filter in the correct direction, but pushes the water to waste rather than back into the pool as it could carry dirt but is used to re settle the filter bed after backwashing and before setting the valve to filter once more.

Domestic filters backwash quite badly so often take several minutes to clear the dirt from the filter, best to use a white piece of card behind the sight glass on the valve to actually see how dirty the water is but it can take a minute or two to expand the filter bed to a point where it starts to release the dirt properly.

Leena just over halfway is all the sand you need as the space above is to allow the sand be to expand during backwash without washing filter sand away as well.

That's embarrassing! I've been doing it wrong for years! I think it's because you cannot SEE the multi-port valve labels where it's under the deck.

Now here's the thing: From my experience, of virtually ALWAYS having gem-like sparkling clear water that is very stable as long as I follow my own rules of regular testing and minor adjusting, it seems it doesn't matter as much as you'd guess whether you use "Rinse" or "Waste". I ALWAYS backwash until my sight-glass runs clear for at least 30 seconds. The sight glass always runs clear for 30 seconds on backwash before it goes cloudy, and you certainly don't need a white card to see it. But there's no sun glare on the glass to confuse me.

Thanks. I so did not know you are suppose to turn the power off when switching between rinse and backwash! Also I hif rinse resettles the sand bed then I should do it after backwash. I was doing it before. Ok going to do it now. I'm hoping this is the problem, maybe I just haven't properly cleaned that dead algae out.

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Thank you Teapot, for phrasing your response so well. I couldn't figure out how to do it. I was a bit confused and was attributing Carl's post to exhaustion or... maybe the Guinness! Hahaha

Carl, I am still wondering what the answer is to this question:

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Originally Posted by Teapot

Why turn to (anything) before backwashing?

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You probably have some good reasoning and I'm curious!

ok, Im crazy because I WAS turning the power off when switching between rinse, backwash & filter. I was just doing it without thinkin I guess so didnt even realize it. THis time I went to backwash first, ran for about 80sec on high. You were right the water got dirty after 30sec, then sand come out for 30 sec, then it went back to clear. Then I did rinse for 30 or 40 sec, then back to filter. I left the filter on low, gonna check it after 6 hrs and see if thats the end of the "clogging" problem. Its showing around 5lbs of pressure, but I never remembered to look at the pressure when it would act clogged, so no idea if it was rising or not.
I was not rinsing after backwashing, nor backwashing long enough, so hopefully that was the problem: I had never cleaned all that dead algae out and wasnt resettling the sand properly. We wil see..... hopefully thats all it was......So ready to be done with filtering/pump problems after 2 yrs of misery!
Next I need to find that leak, we keep wastin so much water because now that the rains have stopped, we have to keep adding water every few days to keep it above the skimmer and return. SO many times I forget the water hose is on or it flips out of pool and runs on ground for a while before I remember I left it on! Yikes, I hate waste! When I start concentrating on the leak, should I start another thread?

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Originally Posted by FormerBromineUser

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Thank you Teapot, for phrasing your response so well. I couldn't figure out how to do it. I was a bit confused and was attributing Carl's post to exhaustion or... maybe the Guinness! Hahaha

Carl, I am still wondering what the answer is to this question:



You probably have some good reasoning and I'm curious!

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Does the manufacturer calling for it help?

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Works for me.... !!

It seems really strange, though. I can't figure out any benefit.