Taking over care of parents pool

I'm glad I found this forum as I'm taking over the care of my parents pool since they are no longer able to keep it up. I went there yesterday and found the pool walls covered in green algae. There is also re algae everywhere (skimmers, bottom, sides). I know red algae is actually bacteria so I checked the bromine canister and of course it was empty. The pool is a kidney shaped gunite circa 1986, bromine, 36000 gallons with a DE filter. When I went looking for their test kit I found it dusty in the basement, apparently they have been relying on the local pool supply chain. I ordered a Taylor K2106 Bromine test kit. I will try to get the additional dimension data etc and fill out the form when I have a chance. A couple initial questions:

1. I spent several hours scrubbing the sides and got off a good amount of the green algae, there is still some on the lower sides/bottom of the deep end and there is still red algae all over the bottom and skimmers. Should I start adding poly-quat algicide now or wait until I've brushed and vacuumed several times.

2. My mother swears that you can only use an oxygen shock in the bromine pool. Is this true or did someone give her misinformation?

Since this is a bromine pool, I have asked PoolDoc to advise you. He is a lot more familiar with bromine pools than the rest of us.

Welcome to the Pool Forum!

Some years ago, some very effective bromine salesmen, presumably from Great Lakes Bio (bromine company of the era) were able to pull the wool over the eyes of a number of code authorities and pool stores in New England. The effects of their sales efforts are still being seen, lingering in some New York codes and in cases like yours.

Compared to chlorine, bromine is overpriced and under-performing even for indoor pools. For outdoor pools, where it cannot be stabilized against photolysis by solar UV, it's MASSIVELY more expensive. I'd recommending switching to chlorine.

If you don't want to do so, that's fine, but we don't support bromine use. I'm one of the few here who knows anything about it, and trying to support it becomes a distraction.

Unfortunately, in cases like yours, switching requires a total drain and refill -- INCLUDING a washdown, partial refill, and flush of pipes and filter. The problem is, if even a little bromide (used bromine) + hydantoin (the chemical 'binder' in solid forms of bromine) linger, you will continue to have a 'bromine' pool, even if you USE chlorine!

The reason is, chlorine is a stronger oxidizer than bromine, and oxidizes bromides (used bromine) BACK to active bromine -- but the chlorine is destroyed (reduced to chloride) in the process.

A couple of other issues:

1. You don't need a bromine kit: the ONLY difference between a chlorine kit and a bromine kit is the numbers: for a given color, the bromine numbers will be twice (2.25, to be exact) the chlorine numbers.

2. Oxygen shock (non-chlorine shock, potassium monopersulfate) is an EXPENSIVE, inefficient way to oxidize bromides back to bromine. Just using chlorine, including 8% plain household bleach is a much cheaper, more efficient way to accomplish the same thing.

Recommendation #1: Drain, rinse, refill and begin using chlorine. (Pressure wash any algae, but be careful not to strip paint or weak plaster.)
BE CAREFUL: if the pool is not elevated significantly above the ground water (swamp?) I saw on Google Maps, just north of the house, when processing your registration, DO NOT DRAIN THE POOL. Even concrete pools can float out of very wet ground.

Recommendation #2: If you want to think about it for awhile, just use bleach, dichlor or whatever form of chlorine is most cheaply available to you to raise bromine levels high enough to eradicate the algae. (ANY form of chlorine will simply react with the bromide reservoir to form fresh bromine). Add chlorine LATE in the day, so the bromine formed can 'work' all night, before being destroyed by sunlight the next day.

If the pool has been operated a number of years using solid bromine, but without being drained and refilled, it may take VERY large doses of chlorine to form high enough levels of bromine to be effective. A large hydantoin residual greatly weakens the effects of the bromine present.

Let us know if you decide to convert to chlorine, so we can guide you.

Thanks for the fast reply, I have always suspected that the whole bromine is better thing was a lot of hot air because I've never really noticed a difference between swimming in the bromine pool or in chlorine ones with the exception of a couple commercial ones that I suspect were being run with higher chlorine levels.

The pool is actually on the side of a hill so it sits well above (20 feet or so I would guess) the wetlands (Miles River, "river" being a bit generous a term perhaps) so I don't think the water table would be an issue.

I have a couple follow-up questions:

1. So just to be sure I understand, I can use the K2006C kit FAS-DPD test or an OTO based test and just multiply whatever drop/color based result I get by 2.25 to get the Bromine ppm?

2. When I questioned my parents about why the switched to the oxygen shock the answer I got was that they thought it was safer and when they had used chlorine shock in the past it turned the water brown. I read the answer to the safety part of the question on your site already but is there anything that might be in the pool that could react with the chlorine to turn the water brown or cause brown staining? Is it possible that they are confused and something else they added turned the water brown?

3. I'm slowly making my way through reading you site as time allows so my apologies if this next question is answered there. If I start using bleach or some other chlorine to shock how much should I be using per dose? Also, is there any type of chlorine that I should NOT use to shock the bromine pool because it has something else in it?

4. The pool has not been drained since a new tile and plaster patching job was done somewhere in the area of 1997-2000 so I assume it may well have the high hydantoin levels and associated problems?

5. I would love to convert the pool to chlorine but do to water use restrictions, the cost, and the time of year (the pool is unheated so there is only about a month or so of use time left) it won't happen this year. That leads to the next issue of cost and a perhaps bigger problem plaster condition. I didn't mention it before but the plaster is starting to come off the pool walls in a significant amount. This seems to be occurring a few inches below the tile line and progressing downwards. It's actually flaking off in significant size pieces ( I've seen a few that were 2-3" in diameter) and there is clearly more plaster beginning to separate away. Given this, I'm guessing the pool needs to be replastered sooner rather than later. I assume that replastering the pool would eliminate the need for the washdown and just require flushing the pipes? I also assume that given the plaster condition it would not be worth it to go through the chlorine conversion process before replastering?

6. Assuming they decide to replaster and convert to chlorine rather than fill in the pool, any recommendation on going with a SWCG system versus a traditional chlorine system?

I appreciated the great information and assistance you provide. I'm sure I will have even more questions assuming they decide to go ahead with the repair and conversion next year. Thanks for all your help.

Chris

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cconte

1. So just to be sure I understand, I can use the K2006C kit FAS-DPD test or an OTO based test and just multiply whatever drop/color based result I get by 2.25 to get the Bromine ppm?

---

Yes.

Quote:

---

2. When I questioned my parents about why the switched to the oxygen shock the answer I got was that they thought it was safer and when they had used chlorine shock in the past it turned the water brown. I read the answer to the safety part of the question on your site already but is there anything that might be in the pool that could react with the chlorine to turn the water brown or cause brown staining? Is it possible that they are confused and something else they added turned the water brown?

---

Brown, as in brownish-red? Probably bromine gas in partial solution. If the brown disappeared after mixing, then that's what it was . . . and it probably indicates an extremely high bromide residual. Short term, you can avoid that by chlorinating via the skimmer.

Long term, it indicates that it will be really important to drain, rinse and flush (pipes, filter, pump) and then re-drain.

Quote:

---

3. I'm slowly making my way through reading you site as time allows so my apologies if this next question is answered there. If I start using bleach or some other chlorine to shock how much should I be using per dose? Also, is there any type of chlorine that I should NOT use to shock the bromine pool because it has something else in it?

---

Calcium hypochlorite will add calcium; dichlor and trichlor will add stabilizer, but that will not affect your pool at present. Bleach will add a bit of salt, but because it's instantly in solution, you're more likely to see the bromine gas formation.

Quote:

---

4. The pool has not been drained since a new tile and plaster patching job was done somewhere in the area of 1997-2000 so I assume it may well have the high hydantoin levels and associated problems?

---

Very likely.

Quote:

---

5. I would love to convert the pool to chlorine but do to water use restrictions, the cost, and the time of year (the pool is unheated so there is only about a month or so of use time left) it won't happen this year. That leads to the next issue of cost and a perhaps bigger problem plaster condition. I didn't mention it before but the plaster is starting to come off the pool walls in a significant amount. This seems to be occurring a few inches below the tile line and progressing downwards. It's actually flaking off in significant size pieces ( I've seen a few that were 2-3" in diameter) and there is clearly more plaster beginning to separate away. Given this, I'm guessing the pool needs to be replastered sooner rather than later. I assume that replastering the pool would eliminate the need for the washdown and just require flushing the pipes? I also assume that given the plaster condition it would not be worth it to go through the chlorine conversion process before replastering?

---

All you say seems to me to likely be correct.

Quote:

---

6. Assuming they decide to replaster and convert to chlorine rather than fill in the pool, any recommendation on going with a SWCG system versus a traditional chlorine system?

---

If you are having to care for the pool, and are not living there, an SWCG would make things easier. But they don't actually save money. They just provide a very reliable continuous chlorine feed system.

Keep in mind that the salt levels required may not be compatible with some of your pool hardware. But that could be replaced when you re-plaster.

Chris: I keep seeing you online. Do you have any questions or are you good?

Yes I seem to need some advice. I apologize for bringing up a bromine question but I can't really find any other place to go. The pool was opened about three weeks ago. after being open about a week the pool went from a nice blue to green but clear water. I immediately suspected a lack of bromine. I emptied out the bromine canister myself and confirmed that water is at least flowing into the canister. I reloaded the canister with Bromine and then put some tablets in the skimmers and ran the pool continuously for a couple days. This seemed to restore the normal water color. Unfortunately at the time my new Taylor kit had not arrived so I was flying blind. This was on a sunday, the following thursday I had the water tested at Leslies, the results were Bromine 1 ppm, pH 8.0. TA 100 ppm, Dissolved Solids 700, calcium 200 ppm, and phosphates 1000 ppm. The pool company came and "inspected and flushed" the Bromine Cannister the following saturday, told us it was ok, and left a nice bill behind. My taylor kit came the same day and on Sunday (last sunday) I tested the water using the kit with the following results Bromine 0.5 ppm, pH 8.0, TA 160 ppm,calcium 280 ppm. I then tested again today and the Bromine is down even lower, i'm just guessing .25 or less ppm, everything else is the same as monday. Obviously there is something wrong, my question is is it definitely the delivery device for the Bromine that is not working (despite the pool company's claim that they checked it and it is fine) or could there be something going on chemically with the pool water. I'm starting to see a little black (I think) algae pop up which I've brushed and treated with polyquat. I'm just getting nervous that a full algae bloom is not far of given the low Bromine. I was hoping that Leslie's would give results for individual metals rather than TDS but I think i'm going to risk it and start shocking with choline to try to get the bromine levels back up. Any thoughts?

The pool is a 36,000 gallon in ground gunnite/plaster with DE filter. Test kit is Taylor K2006

Anyone know of a reputable pool company in Northeast MA?

I'm not knowledgeable about bromine but your pH is too high. You need to bring it down to the mid 7's. If bromine is anything like chlorine, it's gets far more effective at lower pH levels. Also I have NO idea if you use Cyanuric Acid with bromine and how much. But it sounds like you desperately need to shock the pool. I don't know what will happen if you use chlorine, either.

Carl is super correct about getting that pH down. Yes, you can use liquid chlorine/bleach to shock your bromine pool but when testing for shock level, use FC, not Br. My previous history with a bromine pool was that adding CYA actually made things worse.

How old is the water?

FBU knows bromine (hence her name). So I defer to her on that.

Reading your whole thread again, I realized I somehow missed the bit about how old the water is and that you need a replastering job. Sometimes on my phone I scroll too fast. Sorry. Forget that question from the previous page. Get that pH down as CarlD suggested, also on previous page.

Here's a new one: Is the bromine canister called a bromine/chlorine feeder? Is it inline?

Do NOT add liquid chlorine/bleach to your skimmer as mentioned last year with any bromine tabs in that feeder.

Add your chlorine in the evening as the sun will burn a lot of it off during the day. Distribute it evenly around the pool or slowly in front of a return jet in the deep end.

Water that old (1997-2000) that has been treated with bromine can be rather risky. There is a compound called DMH that is used in producing the bromine tabs that never really goes away and just builds up over time. High levels in your pool can cause bad skin rashes.