How long does the pump really need to run?

Ok, just had a pool put in by shasta pools az. I have a pentair system 3 and a V.S. pump with a DE filter. Now the startup guy came out to turn on the system he left it on speed 3 and turned the water feature on. since then I have brought a pool water sample down to Leslie's and they gave me a report I had to add just a little bit of muriatic acidand chlorine he also advised me to add a little bit of shock since then I brought another sample to Leslie's and he said everything was okay. so my question is can I slow this pump down? do I have to keep it running in this speed? they have not contacted me for orientation to the equipment so I have been using this site and the owners manual that I got from online to try and determine what the best procedure is. I have called Shasta a couple of times and I still have not got back to me for orientation? Thanks for the help. btw the pool has been running like this for over a week.

You probably don't need to run your pump that much. To determine how long the pump needs to run, you need to post the volume of your pool in gallons and the GPH rating for your pump. If you don't know the GPM then post what you do know about the pump and we might be able to help you.

Basically you need to be able to filter all the water once a day.

Since you're a new pool owner, there's no better time than now to get started with the BBB Method: http://poolsolutions.com/gd/the-BBB-...pool-care.html It will simplify pool chemical maintenance, while keeping your costs to a minimum. The key to that is knowing what is in your water so you can only add what is necessary. To know what's in the water you'll need a K-2006 test kit from Taylor. http://poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?14994

You'll want your own kit because believe it or not, you are likely to do a better job of testing your water than the guy at the pool store. Really. Also, the best way to go is testing and adjusting often. Daily is best. It's a lot easier to go into your backyard and spend 5 minutes on a test than it is to drive to the pool store every day.

You'll still want to chase them down on orientation. If for no other reason than to be taught which valves are what. If you do get them to come out, make sure to have a pen and paper so you can take notes.

Since it's a new pool, you'll want to keep a close eye on pH while the surface cures.

Maybe even make a video of your "pool school". There will be alot of info coming at you fast.

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Originally Posted by kelemvor

Basically you need to be able to filter all the water once a day.

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A turn per day is a bit of an outdated rule of thumb. You might want to have a read of this study done in 1984: http://consensus.fsu.edu/FBC/Pool-Ef...on_systems.pdf

Even back then, they recognized that only 3-4 hours of run time was needed for the average pool independent of pool size. Unfortunately, the rest of the pool industry has been very slow to adopt this philosophy. I run my pump only 4 hours per day in the heat of the summer and 3 hours of that is on low speed. Total turnover is only 1/2 the volume but the pool is more than clean enough for me. I would go shorter but I need the run time for the SWG.

Anyway, on to the OP. With a VS pump, the most efficient speed in terms of gallons pumped/watt-hr consumed is around 1000 RPM. I would start with that for about 6 hours per day and see how things go. Also, if you find your skimmer is not collecting enough debris, then you might want to have a separate 1 hour run period at higher RPM (~2500 RPM) for the skimmer.

Thanks for all the replies guys.. since I posted last I have had the new startup orientation and to be honest I learned way more from my own research, than by those guys. a tech came out to do the orientation because their startup people were out for personal reasons. I ask a lot of technical questions because I really wanted to understand the bare bones basics of everything and then build my knowledge from there. the guy was very hesitant to give me a good answer, like they were trade secrets or something. I do really want to start the BBB method just educating myself a little before I start that. I bought a basic test kit from LESLIES for now. im going to buy the Taylor soon (thanks for the suggestion). everything is going good so far. water is crystal clear and freezing a** cold. My pump will flow anywhere from 15gpm at setting 1 to 101gpm at setting 4. If I leave the speed at 2 which is around 30gpm and 1100rpm it takes about 8 hrs to filter my pool. its 12k gallons. I run the quick clean cycle 2x a week and scrub the interior and tile 1x per week and that seems to keep the water perfect. oh, its a cartridge style filter not DE sorry. Thanks for all the replies again.

FYI - Most of the Leslie test kits are just rebranded Taylor kits.

Gotcha...thanks a lot. Free info is much appreciated thanks guys. If you have any questions regarding diesel trucks or trucks in general i have you covered

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Originally Posted by mas985

FYI - Most of the Leslie test kits are just rebranded Taylor kits.

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That's true. They even have a rebranded FAS-DPD K2006 test kit sold from their online web site. It's exactly the same as Taylor's, but in a Leslie's box. It's generally a little more expensive than the kits available from Ben's signature link, but it IS exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by mas985

A turn per day is a bit of an outdated rule of thumb. You might want to have a read of this study done in 1984: http://consensus.fsu.edu/FBC/Pool-Ef...on_systems.pdf

Even back then, they recognized that only 3-4 hours of run time was needed for the average pool independent of pool size. Unfortunately, the rest of the pool industry has been very slow to adopt this philosophy. I run my pump only 4 hours per day in the heat of the summer and 3 hours of that is on low speed. Total turnover is only 1/2 the volume but the pool is more than clean enough for me. I would go shorter but I need the run time for the SWG.

Anyway, on to the OP. With a VS pump, the most efficient speed in terms of gallons pumped/watt-hr consumed is around 1000 RPM. I would start with that for about 6 hours per day and see how things go. Also, if you find your skimmer is not collecting enough debris, then you might want to have a separate 1 hour run period at higher RPM (~2500 RPM) for the skimmer.

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Hi Mas985,
Can I clarify if you mean 1 turnover per day (= roughly 4 turnovers to filter 98% of the water) or you actually mean 1 turnover being roughly 12000 gallons in 4 hours being 1/2 the volume?

I have varied the the pump run time and now filter 24 hours, That is at a slow speed during out of hours but sufficient to make sure almost all debris, leaves etc are skimmed rather than sink and require manual removal. During swim times the pump runs faster to keep a 6 hour turnover rate of 100% of the pool volume. My pool water has always been good in clarity but is now excellent and when the occasional manual vac is required there is no dust cloud produced when vacuuming just the occasional leaf (there is always one)

I was referring to my situation where I am only turning over 1/2 the pool volume per day or 1/2 turnover per day (~10k gallons). For me, one turnover is 20k gallons pumped. For the OP one turnover is 11.5k gallons pumped.

But water clarity has little to do with pump run time. Clarity is more about chemistry. What makes a pool cloudy is usually algae and not debris. Most debris either floats and can be cleaned by the skimmer or sinks and can be cleaned by a sweep. Pump run time is basically for these two things and for the distribution of chlorine, which takes only about 30 min for a manual dose. So pump run time is more about aesthetics than anything else which is why it can be significantly limited to meet only the cleanliness needs of the pool owner.

Interesting. I too was advised to run the pump basically for as long as the sun was on the water. That's about 9 hours in summer and 6 in winter. Since I read the article, I have been running my pump 2 1/2 hours and the water looks great. It will be interesting when it warms up to see what happens. Right now there is no bather load. (Water is 68 degrees)

Mark points out that longer run times may be needed for SWCG systems. I suppose the same is true for solar heat at times. During times when you want to get the most heat into your pool, you will want to run the pump for as long as you get a temperature differential (of some minimal amount).

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Originally Posted by mas985

But water clarity has little to do with pump run time. Clarity is more about chemistry. What makes a pool cloudy is usually algae and not debris. Most debris either floats and can be cleaned by the skimmer or sinks and can be cleaned by a sweep. Pump run time is basically for these two things and for the distribution of chlorine, which takes only about 30 min for a manual dose. So pump run time is more about aesthetics than anything else which is why it can be significantly limited to meet only the cleanliness needs of the pool owner.

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Now that is what I also believed early on, howerver although chemical balance is important and customers who have poor circulation I usually recommend running a higher chlorine level to try and improve the water quality/clarity. From my original experiments and from studying other people work I now believe that clarity is also very much about pump run time.
Leaves spend only a certain amount of time floating before becoming water logged and starting to sink. This means there is an optimum time to make sure they are removed by the skimmer/s. Like wise other dirt that ends up in suspension, colloids etc which are the cause of turbidity in water. If you push the water around for a few hours some is removed and after the pump is switched off, some sinks, as you say for manual removal. Manual removal however isn't that easy as small particles easily get stirred up and back into solution as most pool owners will admit. They start with a clear water but after manual cleaning the water loses that clear look for a while until the dirt settles again only to be stirred up by swimmers etc.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbidity

Running the pump for 24h constantly as we know from the water dilution principles means that 98% of the water has passed through the filter after 4 water cycles and that means far more dirt and small particles are removed and if the filtration is good enough colloids can also be removed. This greatly improves the water clarity and means chlorine can last longer and there is a lot less manual cleaning to be done and when it is needed there is no dust cloud to make the water cloudy. When your pump is off everything that enters your pool ends up on the bottom and stirred up when the pump starts.
I have tested this on my own pool and the requested customers to carry out the same test and the same results were observed. From the wiki link and average pool water is around 5 NTU's and a poor pool 10+ after several weeks of running my pool 24/7 which I now do for the whole summer the level of 1 NTU was obtained on my tester. The chlorine consumption fell although the sun still takes it's toll and the pH became more stable.

The reason we don't run our pumps for 24h? Cost and with the correct setup that issue can be put to rest too at least for domestic pools. I realise with the wide variations in pool water and temperature you have in the USA are different from Europe but I am sure that the pools will benefit form the extended run time. It is better to move the water constantly but slower than to move it rapidly for shorter time. Filters work much better with a slower flow so remove more but the downside of the 24h running is more frequent visits to empty the skimmer baskets proof that it works.

According to this web page collides are generally smaller than 1 um.This document also confirms that particles > 2 um will settle out in a few minutes but anything less than that will remain suspended indefinitely. At best, DE filter can only filter down to 5 um so any particles that are actually suspended in water, will not be filtered out anyway.

Yes Mark, I agree and I said if the filtration was good enough. I don't want to get into the area of colloids yet but the point was more that continuous running of the filtration but at a slower rate will improve the the water quality by removing more suspended solids because they are suspended and so can be skimmed and filtered and not just sinking to the bottom once the water has calmed. I have vaccuumed too many pools only to see small clouds created by dirt if you move too quickly or make sudden moves. Running the sysytem continuously has removed that problem. That said, I wonder if removing too much from the water would cause a greater loss of chlorine to photodegredation as the suspended matter may shield chlorine from the sun's UV in the same way as bacteria and algae can be shielded from chlorine as stated in your second link.

It is a fact that DE can remove Ocyst of Gardia and Crypto providing the grids are intact but DE is just a mechanical filter to go to the next level we need adsorption to draw particles to the surface of the filter media.

As you have a large cartridge filter and a good sized 2 speed pump, I would be interested in your flow rate and system pressure at normal running conditions if you wouldn't mind passing on that information please?
Regards
John

On high speed without solar, flow rate is around 68 GPM and with solar around 58 GPM. On low speed, flow rate is half of 68 GPM or about 34 GPM.

Thanks Mark, What sort of pressure shows on the gauge at those flow rates? I usually fit sand filters but have a customer who specifically needs a cartridge filter and to get my system to run well the system pressure doesn't want to be too high.

Regards
John

High speed filter pressure is about 10 PSI without solar and 14 PSI with solar.

But I don't understand what you are trying to say here:

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and to get my system to run well the system pressure doesn't want to be too high.

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Cartridge and DE filters have about the same head loss independent of filter size. Only sand filters, because of the small area, have a head loss dependency on size.

Also when sizing a filter, you really should use the APSP-15 specs and don't worry too much about pressure. APSP-15 specifications use a rate of 0.375 GPM/sqft for cartridge filters.

Happy new year Mark and thanks for the update. Yes with sand filters they only present a small surface area ( pi x r2 of the filter size) as the depth of the bed isn't considered for some reason so I would have expected the pressure to be lower with the large surface area of a pleated cartridge or DE grids. You say the headloss is about the same regardless of filter size, therefore they are very poor performers hydraulically speaking which doesn't surprise me as the pool industry designers are pretty lazy/useless/untrained?

Helpful to know though thanks, On your slow speed I would have expected the headloss to drop quite a lot especially as your filter is quite big.

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Originally Posted by Teapot

You say the headloss is about the same regardless of filter size, therefore they are very poor performers hydraulically speaking which doesn't surprise me as the pool industry designers are pretty lazy/useless/untrained?.

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Actually it means just the opposite. Cartridge and DE filters have the lowest head loss so are are very good performers hydraulically. The head loss doesn't change with size because even the smallest size is "large". What causes the head loss in these types of filters is just the internal fittings and for DE, the backwash valve adds a lot of head loss but the media does not add much to the head loss. I can take the cartridges out of my filter and the pressure does not change which means they don't add any head loss. Only the internal plumbing fittings add head loss which is why it is so low. However, for sand filters, the sand area is quite small and that does have an impact on head loss but only for filters smaller than about 5 sq-ft.

Here is a table with several different types of filters and filter sizes (sand only). For a given filter line with cartridge and DE, the head loss does not change with size but as you can see, the cartridge has the lowest head loss and by quite a bit of margin.

https://dxodqa.bn1.livefilestore.com...pes.jpg?psid=1

Also, I didn't post the low speed pressure because it doesn't actually read a pressure. But theoretically, it is about 2 PSI.

Many thanks for that Mark, Chart saved for future reference.

What you have said about cartridge having the lowest head loss is what I was expecting. As you say the internal fittings are where the head loss occurs which is why I said the "designers" are lazy etc because it could easily be improved and needs to be given that we are going Eco. I have fitted a 15 PSI gauge to my filter as I needed to see the 2 PSI I run at also. I notice the almost exponential graph as the flow increases, which fits with my empirical data and is where I am investigating the head loss. Is it through the media or bad plumbing? Not an issue in the past as a powerful pump always makes sure the water gets where it's going but reducing the power brings on new challenges.

Thanks for you help on this, it's appreciated.

Regards
John

Having had a chance to look over the data from your table Mark. If you look at the TR140 sand filter with 2" multiport and compare it with the TR50 or 60 with 2" multiport, the additional filter media in a TR140 which holds nearly three times what a TR60 and even more than that in a TR50 yet it has the lowest headloss figures same thing with the TR100 so it isn't the filter media causing the headloss it's poor hydraulic design with the laterals. This is the area I am concentrating on at the moment.

Thanks again for the data.

Regards
John

Head loss in a fixed plumbing system follows the pump affinity equations where head loss is proportional to the square of the flow rate. This is why any plumbing system can be fit to a plumbing curve that follows this equation:

Head Loss (ft) = Cp * GPM ^2

Where Cp is the plumbing curve constant. Typical 2" plumbing has a curve constant that is close to 0.0082 while 1.5" plumbing is closer to 0.0167.

This is useful when trying to determine the operating point of a new pump on an existing plumbing system. You just have to draw the plumbing curve over the pump's head curve and where they intersect is the new operating point.