Doughboy with slurry or Johnny W with dirt?

Hello!
We currently have deposits on two AG pools and need to make a decision on one soon if we hope to swim at all this summer!

Here's a quick rundown on our situation:
- never owned a pool before
- have a septic system and absorption field in yard, thus
- we are limited to having an above ground pool by health dept restrictions (AG pools can be 10' from system; IG pools must be 25' from system! Health dept inspector said that they don't really care if an AG pool is dug into the ground much, it is still considered AG if it has an aluminum/steel/resin rim)
- we wanted an in-ground, so we've been investigating alternatives to standard AG constuction
- we'd like to bury a 52" AG pool 24" into the ground, then build a low deck around it, for a more in-ground look.

That said, our two contenders are:
1. 16 x 32 Doughboy Desert Spring (steel walls with resin components), placed 2' below ground level, then backfilled with a "slurry" (a concrete mix that specified by Doughboy for below-grade installations that will not void their warranty.)

OR

2. 15 x 30 (or possibly 18 x 33 if we can fit it within setbacks) Johnny Weismuller TITAN extruded aluminum, which can be buried 2' below grade and backfilled with plain old dirt without voiding their warranty.

Cost for the Doughboy/slurry combo will be about $1500 more than the Titan. But, on the plus side, the Doughboy dealer does their own installs, whereas the Titan dealer subcontracts (although they have subcontracted with the same company for over 5 years, so...)

I like the idea that the aluminum pool walls do not need water to support them, and that we can just backfill with dirt. My husband thinks that the slurry makes the Doughboy stronger.

And, of course, each dealer is recommending different system components...
Doughboy, Hayward superpump 1 1/2 hp; Hayward 300 lb sand filter; adding a 2nd skimmer to the pool for greater filtration; cushion and cove over sand for the base. Johnny Weismuller TItan with Pentair dynamo 1 1/2 hp; pentair Clean & Clear cartridge filter; adding a bottom drain (I'm thinking that a second bottom drain should also be added as a safety measure to prevent "suction drownings"; cushion and cove is 'not neccessary' but they'll put it in if we want it. They both agree on a frog system, though. And both are 52" in height (we're planning on a flat "sport" bottom, since we don't want to go any deeper into the ground than the planned 2'.)

Has anyone had any direct experience with burying either of these pools (or ones similar?) Input would be appreciated. I have scoured this wonderful website for guidance and have learned much -- perhaps too much, as I feel more confused than ever! :confused: (And to think that I thought I'd at least get an answer to the perennial question of "what is better -- cartridge, sand or DE?"

thanks for your replies!:rolleyes:

Just wondering if I'm not getting any response because I've
a) posted in the wrong forum
b) been too wordy
c) asked too many questions
d) just asked about something that not many folks have had experience?

Maureen

Maureen,
I have no experiece with either brand of pool, I'm partial to sand filters thats all I've owned and they have been super easy to take care of and do a fine job in my opinion. The house I'm in had a 18' round pool backfilled/dug in like you are thinking about, after having to remove it (pool shot) filling the hole and installing a new larger pool i personally wouldn't do it. What is going to become of the dirt you excivate, if I figured correctly depending on the pool you will have a minimum of 37+ cu. yards to disperse or get rid of. On the main drain, all i see is big hole in the lowest part of my liner and that is something that doesn't sound too good.

Getting the discussion started,
JJ

JJ,
Thanks for making me feel welcome in the forum!

You mentioned 'pool shot' in your reply -- what is that? Was the pool buried completely or partially? And how involved was the removal?

In what condition was the buried pool? Or did you just take it out because you wanted a larger size?

Regarding the dirt -- we are using most or all of the excavated "dirt" to build up a berm area upon which we will build a multi-level waterfall that flows into a large pond. We expect that the dirt will be a lot of clay, especially a foot or two down. Any usable topsoil we will use to dress the existing yard and at low points near the foundation.

Thanks for getting the discussion going!
Maureen

"shot" means the walls where rusting out from being buried about 18", needed a new liner, pump motor beginning to act up and i didn't feel like it was worth the money to fix it. We removed it but didn't immediately put up a new pool. Removal wasn't too bad because I wasn't trying to salvage anything, I just took a angle grinder with a cutting wheel and sliced that sucker up. The hole it left was another story though, 15 yards of fill later I no longer had a hole, I'm just glad I could get a bobcat/skid steer into my back yard.
JJ

Maureen,

Here's a thread to look at:

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=1321

It looks like hrsdennis installs Doughboy pools so you might want to send him a PM as he might be able to give you some information.

I just got a Doughboy 24' round Desert Spring and I am very happy with it. I have the usual above-ground installation so I can't help you as far as burying it.

Did you compare warranties between the two pools?

Peter

Well, what do you know! A AG dealer selling a pump AND filter combo that's BIGGER than you need! A Hayward superpump 1.5hp and 300# sand filter is overkill--I have 20,000 and use a 1 hp 2speed Superpump with a 200# sand filter and am just fine--and I run solar panels with it too. You are better off downsizing the pump than the filter--only downsize the filter if you downsize the pump.

We are also looking at an AG recessed into the ground. As JJ says the walls rusted, I have to ask how old was the pool, if known and if the liner was leaking? Also the make of the pool. If the liner was leaking, I think that would cause more rust than the ground water. Than if the ground was not graded for runoff of the rain that also could have been part of the problem.

After researching this type of install, I think that back filling with sand will help with drainage and movement of ground in the winter.

If the bottom part of the walls starts to rust out in ten years or so, I think the ground around it will support the liner for more years of use.

Both the Doughboy Desert Spring and Johnny Weismuller TItan seem to be of higher quality of manufacturers, thus better treatment of the metal.

The concrete around the pool worries me because of the frost maybe moving it and pushing it against the walls. I don't know if this applies to you or not, not living in a cold state.

Overall if we lose a few years off the life of pool and still have it for 20 plus years and not 30 years, is that really a loss?

Looking for more opinions on this.

Thanks Dave

Attachment 249
I'm not sure if I got this right, but I think I've attached the 4-page instructions from Doughboy on below grade installation.
Maureen

Hi, I do recommend the Doughboy pool but not the slurry or the way Doughboy says to do it. Any pool can be installed in the ground. When I do this I like to have between two and three feet extra area around the pool also dug out. This makes installing the pool much easier. Being able to walk around the pool is critical for my installs.

When the pool is up and full of water the ouside can be coated with roofing tar and backfilled with dirt. As long as you keep your pool water above the dirt level you should not have a problem.

That's the way we do them anyway. Best of luck, Dennis

Thanks everyone for the input so far!

A few things:
we live in Illinois, so we definitely deal with the freeze/thaw cycles! The frost line is something like 42" (at least that's the depth deck footings need to be to meet code.) Wonder how that will affect the pool. Now the kids are asking for a deeper end -- don't know if that's better or worse for potential pool "heaving" due to freeze/thaw cycles.


What happens if the liner gets a leak -- would the water just sit between the liner and the pool wall and begin the rusting process? Seems like it would be the same whether it's tar coating the outside or slurry. (BTW -- Doughboy installer said that, although not necessary, we could slap on some tar once the pool is up and filled, and before they come back to fill the 1' space with slurry.)

I'm wondering too if I should plan to lay some drain tile to catch any water from higher in the yard that otherwise would treat the pool buried 24 inches in the ground like a dam -- then i'd have connecting drain tile run away from the pool, still in the general run-off direction but to a lower point in the yard than the bottom of the pool.