White splotches, spots, and lines (stains/fading?) in 3 year old fiberglass pool

I have white random splotches and spots (resemble water splash markings), and lines in my 3 year old fiberglass pool. There is actually a perfect white faded looking line that goes around the bottom perimeter of the pool along with lines going the width of the pool here and there. At first I thought the color was fading because of these suspicious lines. I contacted the manufacturer. They sent one of their guys who said he had just left a pool with the same problem...calcium scaling. After speaking to his boss on the phone, he performed an acid wash using a descaler and acid. Instructions were to leave the filter off for 24 hours, then run the filter for 24 hours. After this process, there was no improvement! The person in charge of service for the manufacturer said it would take time, and the process may have to be repeated along with scrubbing the pool and spa. (problem is in both) That was almost 2 months ago. Since the acid wash, our pool guy set a descaling plan for us.... keep the ph at 7.2 and chlorine at 2, add a descaler weekly and no shocking. He said that this would slowly remove the "scale".
Today another pool company came out to look at a different issue, and took a look at our "scale". He has been installing (gunite) pools for 25 years or so and has experience with scale which he said is rough and can flake off. He was baffled. Whatever it is we have is smooth to the touch, just as smooth as the pool surface itself. There is no way to scrape it off. When the spa was drained, the "white stains" became snow white (no longer hydrated) and had a slight chalky residue when rubbed hard. I am so confused! Is this scale or not? Where do we go from here? It is so frustrating. I just made another call to the manufacturer for further assistance. I did send pics of the lines, etc. and the "white" drained spa to them initially.

Hi,

I'm not the person that can answer your question, but the ones that can should be by shortly. I will tell you this, though--one of the first things they'll ask for is a set of test results on your water, taken with drop-based testing, and a list of what chemicals (ingredients, not product names) have been put into the pool. With that info, hopefully somebody can give you some good info to help solve the problem!

You can also use the google search linked in my sig to search the forum for other posts regarding the same problem--you'll just have to log out to read the responding threads until your registration is upgraded by the forum's owner, Ben.

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks! I retyped and posted this twice because it said I wasn't logged in the first time. Sorry. I am getting the info now.

I have a salt water pool, just under 20,000 gallons.
Test results today:
TC 1
FC 1
TA 81
TH 192
PH 7.6
CYA 114
Ph has typically been about 7.2.

We have been adding 6 oz of descaler per week after initial dose of 64 oz. 3 weeks ago, 1 cup m. acid every 3-4 days for descaling, and a couple 3 inch tabs in skimmer every few days for chlorine. (pool guy instructions for descaling)
Today AFTER these results, added 1 cup m. acid and 1 lb of a stabilized chlorinator (with no calcium) as a shock due to algae as a result of low chlorine. Recently added a phosphate remover (phosphates were about 2,000)
***Considering discontinuing descaling treatment....not positive that is the problem.

I deleted your other, duplicate post. When new posters put posts up, they go into a queue to wait for a moderator to approve them before they show up on the forum. It's one of the steps in place to keep hackers/spammers out of the forum. One of us is almost always on the forum, so usually you don't have to wait long to see your post show up, but I guess we were all off at the same time last night!

Hi Viking;

I don't know the answer to your question, but I have some ideas. However, I'm going to ask Waterbear, who's worked with FG pools, to see if he has any ideas -- you may have to wait for his reply; he's sorta on vacation this week.

Meanwhile, please
(a) send me those pictures -- poolforum@gmail.com,
(b) get some Vitamin C tabs, and put some on some areas that are NOT white, and see if they lighten up.
(c) also, sit a small pile of them on WHITE faded area, and see if they have any effect over a 24 hour period.

Thanks for the reply. This morning I tried scrubbing a white splotch, after much effort, it lightened just a tad but is still there. It's as though it's part of the pool surface, like a rust stain would feel. It is completely smooth. I applied a descaler to it and scrubbed. I also applied 50/50 concentrations of m acid....no change! I am so disouraged.

I have a correction to make....my pool is ONLY 2 years old, not 3. Also, if it helps, I live in South Louisiana.

How do you suggest I apply the Vitamin C tabs? (I lowered the water level in the spa to expose/dry some of the staining.)

Thanks! This is consuming my time.

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I emailed some pics to you. Also, I just dropped a few C tabs in affected and non-affected area in the spa, which will be easier for me to monitor.

Thanks bunches!

Hi there, here is an update:

After 24+ hours, there was no change on both affected and non-affected areas where the vitamin C tabs were placed.

We did hear back from the manufacturer. They claim that it IS scale, even though it is smooth. They said one of their display pools did the same thing, and they had to buff it down (after little success with chemical treatment). Our question to him was.... How could that happen? Did you not maintain proper water balance? (How odd for the manufacturer's pool to have problems; they are the pros.) He said the guy in charge of that claims he did maintain proper water. (I just wonder....if our water chemistry has been fairly good/normal, how can this happen so easily? I question the quality control of our pool surface?? I mean, it will likely happen again if we never had water problems. What do you think??? ....I'm ranting)

We will try to use a power buffer/sander as per the manufacturer's recommendation with the spa and see what happens. (I hope we are not sanding off the gel coat!) I'm not getting my hopes up, after all, I scrubbed yesterday with no success.


If this is what we may have to end up doing to the pool IF IT WORKS in the spa, my question is now: how in the world can we sand/buff a 20,000 FB pool? How will we drain water from a fiberglass pool with no drain hole at the bottom? AND isn't it dangerous to empty a FG pool? I know it can be done, but I am sure there are several precautions to take. (I am ranting.)

Awaiting your input. Thanks bunches!

Be careful.

If you expose the surface to air, put mix a 1:3 solution of muriatic acid (1/4 cup acid to 3/4 cup water) and then put a spoonful on the 'scale'. If it's calcium scale, it will fizz. I don't have any experience with FG pool surface problems, but right now, my guess would be manufacturer defect, not scale.

Once you grind, you've taken responsibility for it though. So, I'd hold off. You can still swim and NOT affect any warranty or mfg defect claim. Waterbear is out of touch at the moment, but he has some knowledge of FG pools. You might want to wait till he's back.

Also, I'd call the mfg back and ask "What sort of scale?"

I'll get your pics posted, but I don't think they will necessarily be that helpful, till we get someone who has some experience with FG.

Thanks for the reply. I will wait.

The manufacturer did say it was calcium that fell out of solution due to high ph. I just read on the blog of a "dealer of our brand pool" that the manufacturer sent out a "technical release to their dealers regarding this issue"! I will also definitely call the manufacturer again and ask for a technician to come personally and provide steps for treatment that will not void my warranty. (I may call that dealer first and see what info I can gather from them.) We are not comfortable scrubbing everything. The surface already seems to have lost its shine. (FYI: The manufacturer actually performed and paid for the first acid wash treatment.)

I am aware that I cannot use specific names on your blog. (I will gladly email or message you any specific details if that helps.)

Here is some of the info that I found about the "technical release from the manufacturer" that seems to explain why the whiteness I have seems to be a part of the pool (smooth)...here goes: "If the problem is more severe, or the pool has been left with a high PH level for an extended time, the calcium deposits will combine with the chlorine in the pool and create a salt called Calcium Chloride. The salt will attach itself to the pool surfaces and cause areas of the gelcoat to look white. There are two stages of this advanced calcium chloride. The first, and easier to treat, stage is less advanced. If the gelcoat returns to normal when it’s hydrated (or just wet), then you can treat it using the same chemical solution as the less sever case mentioned above. However, it will take up to 6 months for the treatment to totally dissolve the calcium chloride. Due to the time this takes, and the fact that the water will be very acidic in this time, we recommend that this treatment be done in the off season. If, perchance, the salt deposits are visible even when they’re hydrated, the treatment is not as easy. An effective chemical treatment hasn’t been found or developed so the recommended solution is to remove the salt is to buff and polish the surface to return it to its previous condition."
....BUT the confusing for me is.... it says: ...CaCl will form if the problem is more severe??? I never had noticeable or rough calcium scaling stuck to the pool...(it started off white and smooth) ....so to me ... deposits must have still been suspended in order to combine with the chlorine to produce CaCl and then attach itself to the pool surface??? SOOO Confusing!.......

Thanks for your time. I am impressed with your site. I am very interested in using your no nonsense pool water maintenance program. I'll need help with that.

I will wait for your response. (There are SO many different solutions/remediations out there; it is scary!)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viking

"If the problem is more severe, or the pool has been left with a high PH level for an extended time, the calcium deposits will combine with the chlorine in the pool and create a salt called Calcium Chloride. The salt will attach itself to the pool surfaces and cause areas of the gelcoat to look white. There are two stages of this advanced calcium chloride. The first, and easier to treat, stage is less advanced. If the gelcoat returns to normal when it’s hydrated (or just wet), then you can treat it using the same chemical solution as the less sever case mentioned above. However, it will take up to 6 months for the treatment to totally dissolve the calcium chloride. Due to the time this takes, and the fact that the water will be very acidic in this time, we recommend that this treatment be done in the off season. If, perchance, the salt deposits are visible even when they’re hydrated, the treatment is not as easy. An effective chemical treatment hasn’t been found or developed so the recommended solution is to remove the salt is to buff and polish the surface to return it to its previous condition."

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Your manufacturer is full of it. Calcium chloride is an EXTREMELY soluble material: at pool temperatures you can dissolve a cup of granular calcium chloride (sold in the pool trade as "calcium increaser) in a cup of water! There is no possible way it could coat your pool.

I don't know whether your manufacturer's tech guys are dishonest, or simply really, really ignorant.

Can you email me (poolforum@gmail.com) the specifics of your problem . . . and a link to the tech bulletin? Meanwhile, I'm going to as Waterbear (who has some knowledge of fiberglass) and Chem_Geek (who knows chemistry) to take a look.

Sorry for your bad luck!

Is your pools gelcoat by any chance blue? Blue fades. Period. It can happen in as little as 2 or 3 years if your pool get a lot of sun. That is why someof the fiberglass pool manufacturers don't warranty the blue gelcoat for very long.

There are some pics on this page:
http://www.thefiberglasspooldepot.co...iberglass-Pool
As Pooldoc said, Calcium chloride is extremely soluble in water and other calcium scales (carbonate, silicate or phosphate) will feel rough. Only the first will respond well to acid. The others are more difficult to remove.

Ben,
My gosh! Thanks for the response....How can they possibly make these claims? How frustrating! Our patience is running very thin. They offered to send someone out to take a look again. We were not impressed with the first guy...but we need to make sure we don't do further damage. I think I will ask for their recommendations in writing.
I emailed the specifics to you along with two links that belong to dealers who have posted the information that was released from the manufacturer.
To think we evaluated so many companies before deciding on this one! I'm hoping we can solve our problem without creating more problems!
Thanks so very much!
P.S. I am hoping to use your no nonsense methods in maintaining our pool water once we figure this out. I am purchasing the K2006 kit through your link on Amazon today!

Waterbear,
Yes, our gelcoat is blue. We did lots of homework on manufacturers and warranties. Chose the one we THOUGHT was superior quality and best warranty....even looked at other installed pools with the same color (newer ones). Ours has a 15 year warranty on gelcoat fading, etc. and 25 year on shell. Our pool is only 2 years old. They are claiming it is a water quality issue....which I might add they claimed happened to their very own display pool! Are these gelcoats that sensitive? We thought our water for the most part was fairly balanced and corrected it when it was off. I just read where they noted the ph should be 7.2-7.4...it will scale above this! Really?? 7.4??

Thanks for your help! It is greatly appreciated. This is now beyond frustrating.

Waterbear,

I understand that it will fade, but you would expect that to be more uniform and slowly (we looked into that before purchasing....studied their fade resistant studies, etc.). This is different...very white spots against original darker color. (Note: At first we though it was just fading, but we knew it shouldn't happen so quickly and in such suspicious patterns...called the manufacturer as soon as we saw there was a problem, which really seemed to have happened suddenly Without hesitation, they claimed it was scaling... even though the stains were very smooth...no rough spots at all.)
They continue to say it is scaling and they claim scaling can be smooth.

Thanks so much!!!

You mentioned it will feel rough. What I have is smooth. I looked at the pics. The manufacturer mentioned on the site and the video (which has been removed) is who I am dealing with. Do you think it's possible that I have a gelcoat issue? They want us to buff it off.... I'm wondering if I this will remove some of the gelcoat ...which will consequently remove the white stains which they claim may be CaCl on the gelcoat.

Calcium chloride dissolves in water. It is the ingredient in products that increase Calcium Hardness (CH). It has a solubility in water (at 20ºC which is 68ºF) of 745 g/L which is 745,000 mg/L. Also, this solubility would not change significantly with pH. For the manufacturer to say that the calcium fell out of solution due to high pH but then to say that the scale is calcium chloride instead of calcium carbonate is just nutty.

Calcium carbonate scale is only rough to the touch if such scale is formed quickly. If it is formed slowly over time, then it can be smooth to the touch and be harder to remove, just like the regular calcium carbonate that is in plaster (you CAN remove it, of course, just as you can dissolve plaster, but becomes trickier). You may need to be a member of PGN to see this link, but it contains useful info and photos about scaling. See also this article on staining of fiberglass including scale from calcium, but this is calcium carbonate (sometimes combined with other metals to cause coloration).

Since your test data, including "TH" for total hardness, did not come from your own testing, then I wouldn't trust it. It's just more likely that your CH and TA were moderately high, but that the pH went much higher for an extended period of time. See this thread for another example of scale on fiberglass. You really need to get your own proper test kit -- the Taylor K-2006 (NOT K-2005).

Chem Geek,

Thanks for the reply. Your opinion is valued; your wealth of knowledge is impressive. I will research the sites that you have provided. I had already read through the "thread" that you linked a couple nights ago. Some of the specific details are confusing as far as the treatment plan. (This is all new to me.)

I just ordered the K-2006 through a link provided on this forum. Thanks for that advice!

Is there anyway that you can provide ideal ranges (ph, TA, TH, CYA, TC?....I understand that TC is relative to CYA) for the type pool that I have, SWCG colored FB? I want to be confidant that I am properly balancing the water. (I am getting conflicting numbers from different sources.) Also, what do you think about the manufacturer stating that a ph above 7.4 will result in scaling?

I need to note that we do have a heater plumbed to both pool and spa (I worry about damage resulting from scaling treatment...I never even knew that could be problematic until doing my own research on this site), and we just installed a pool cooler to keep the pool temp down, which should help with maintenance as well, I hope.

Thanks thanks thanks!!!! I look forward to your response.

What sort of "pool cooler" do you have?

I've made some, and seen some others made, but never seen one sold commercially.

I have a Glacier pool cooler GPC210 for 30K gallon pool:[URL="http://www.glacierpoolcoolers.com"]

My pool is 20K gallons, but we purchased the step above the 20K cooler because of the pool's dark color. Temps have been reaching 98 degrees, and consequently our pool was not very refreshing. We felt it was worth a small investment to enjoy the much larger investment, ie. the pool/outdoor living area. It works really well....cools our pool by at least 12-15 degrees.

Air temp today is 93 (a little cooler than usual) and the pool temp is 80. (We didn't even run the cooler for the entire recommended time.) So far, we are very satisfied.

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Update:
Spoke to the manufacturer. They will be sending out a service crew to buff the pool and spa. (It will take about a month for them to fit us in!) We told them that we are not comfortable risking damage to the gel coat. They did say that there would be some cost involved....Maybe we can negotiate?? In the meantime, we will continue to maintain a lower ph and add de-scaler until help arrives.

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Is there anyway that you can provide ideal ranges (ph, TA, TH, CYA, TC?....I understand that TC is relative to CYA) for the type pool that I have, SWCG colored FB? I want to be confidant that I am properly balancing the water. (I am getting conflicting numbers from different sources.)

Also, what do you think about the manufacturer stating that a ph above 7.4 will result in scaling?

My test kit should be in today! (k2006)

Thanks!!!!!!!

I looked at your pool cooler:
http://www.glacierpoolcoolers.com/images/gpc210.png
I need to talk to them. I would have expected a cooler like that to be useless in Louisiana.

As to what I think of your pool company's chemical advice - I thought I'd made that clear. They are chemical idiots: if they knew even a little about pool chemistry, they'd never claim that the scale was calcium chloride!

Also, I'd bet on your problem being purely a manufacturing defect. If you think there's the slightest chance of legal action, I'd save EVERY thing you can from them. If you can find the "calcium chloride scale" claim, in writing save, date, and get a witness signature on the copy. Take that into court, and with ANY swimming pool witness, it's a slam-dunk to show that they don't have a clue.

Ideal ranges -- for them -- are going to be anything they claim, or hope, will reduce the appearance of their defects, and have nothing to do with actual pool chemistry. If you can do so without destroying your pool, follow their guidelines, regardless of how stupid they are, and document doing so.

And if going to court is an option, I'd talk to an attorney sooner rather than later. Of course, the company may be near bankruptcy, in which case you've just got to do the best you can. I'd certainly want to find out what I could about the company's finances. If you can sue first, you may be able to get a settlement BEFORE they go belly up!

Ben,

I appreciate your comments. You have made yourself clear. Thanks for being so helpful. I can give you a dealer's site who posted the actual letter from the manufacturer's service manager which includes the "formation of CaCl claim" if you are interested. (I think I may have already emailed this specific info to you. Did you get the manufacturer info?) I know there are others out there with the same problem for them to post the letter.

I am keeping notes on everything. This is why we are waiting for THEM to come in person and try for themselves to remedy our situation. No more phone conversations and having them dismiss our concerns with their ludicrous cause-effect scenarios. We are outdone.

Again, thanks!

Had another guy out here to look at a couple things. He definitely thinks there is a serious problem with the gel coat. He has also recommended we get our ducks in a row and prepare for legal action. He thinks it is a slam dunk. (Just so you know, we are not people who easily can sue anyone. This is difficult for us.) What luck! Very stressing!

He pointed out some "bubbling/blistering" on the steps. This is new! Is this our fault? Low alkalinity? He said even if our alkalinity was low, this should not be happening.

I'm not recommending suing -- often the only side that wins when you do are the parasitic attorneys, who feed on BOTH sides. But sometimes a 'lawyer letter' can work wonders, especially when a company is still trying keep a disastrous product problem under wraps. They may fix you up, to keep you from getting the lawsuits started.

( I think I did get your email -- I'm almost caught-up enough to have time to go check :puzzle: )

Thanks for the response. I's sorry about all the questions. We are thinking of just a letter to get them out here quickly.

Why the blistering? They vary in size.. smaller than a dime. Is it osmotic blisters? They are the color of the pool. Noticing them on the steps. (These are not part of the textured surface for traction.) So frustrating!

I can't thank you enough.

I know it's frustrating -- my sympathies. No idea why it's blistering; I know almost nothing about the actual chemistry and manufacturing of fiberglass, so I can't even guess.