Want to get the chemicals right ...

I am sick to death of my pool right now, and would like some advice to help get the chemicals in balance. We've had the pool for 15 years, and have had a hard time with it for the last 5.
This year, we lost it to green murk about two weeks ago, and went to the pool store to see what to do. When they told us it needed 95 bags of shock, we drained and refilled with our well water. We used a Metal Trap attachment on our hose to try to trap as much of the iron as possible, and used a separate 1.25 hp submersible pump to pump the water in the pool through a Culligan-type under-sink filter to trap even more of the iron. So here's where we stand today.

We have not added any chemical, and took a sample to the pool store today. The measures the computer gave us:
Water is basically clear, but not sparkly, and maybe a tiny bit green.
pH: 8.2 (I know this needs to come down and just added a gallon of muriatic acid)
TC: .5
FC: 0
CYA: 0
TA: 288
Hardness: 325
Saturation index: 1.2
Pool is 50,000 gallons, L-shaped, plaster bottom, fiberglass sides.

Store wants us to add 15 lbs of stabilizer and 24 bags of Burnout 35, along with 10 pts of muriatic acid a day for 5 days and 5 qts of stain inhibitor..
It's a BioGuard store, so we won't buy from them (too expensive), so any product recommendations, along with process recommendations will be greatly appreciated!!

Hi, and welcome to the forum!!
It might help if you log out, go to the main forum page, and open the first set of threads in the second section, called chemistry for Intex pools. I realize your pool isn't an Intex, but the first sticky in that subforum, called " before you fill your...well water!" will apply to most any pool with metals in the water. Read through there, and if it doesn't answer your questions, ome back and post them, and we'll be glad to try to help.

Thanks for answering me! I read the post you recommended, but still have questions ...

The pool store analysis (test strip through a computer?!) said we have no metals. I guess it is possible that the metals are either sequestered or mostly out because we have been continuously filtering through our sand filter and the extra "culligan" filter.

What I need to know is:
1. What is the best way to get the chlorine up to maintenance levels.
Super shock with about 10-12 lbs of dichlor (chlorine and stabilizer) shock. Or get it up slowly with separate CYA and liquid chlorine? I don't want to keep pouring chemicals and dollars in and having the chlorine disappear constantly.

Can you help with that question? My husband is going to another pool store today to compare their advice with what the other store said and what I've read here.

Thanks for

In many parts of the country the cheapest chlorine you can get is the PoolBrand dichlor 50# bucket for about $105. I just got the last 3 buckets at my local store this AM, because we're draining a local country club's pool after a storm broke 3 glass tables in both their main pool and their kiddie pool.

With a 50K gallon pool, 50lbs of dichlor is about 66 ppm of chlorine and 60 ppm of stabilizer. If your water is CLEAN and has no particular chlorine demand, that should last you about a month, and give you time to come up with something else. I'm not sure what part of Illinois you're in, or what your swim season is like.

But, with a 50K gallon pool, your probably want to see if you can get a 100# container of cal hypo. If you were just now starting the season, you could probably do very well with a 50# of dichlor, a 100# of cal hypo, 4 - 8 gallons of muriatic acid, and possibly a few boxes of borax. Depending on what's in your well water, you might need additional chemicals to manage that.

But, if you've been getting your advice from a pool store, it's no surprise you've had problems for the last 5 years. Pool chemical companies are desperate to keep up sales, in the face of losses to Asian chemicals, to SWCG's and to their on predatory treatment practices. As a result, their chemical recommendations have gotten 'goopier' and 'goopier' with more and more emphasis on high margin, low function, specialty chemicals.

Sorry, I must not have been clear what I was asking ... I wanted to know if we should add chlorine slowly or full shock strength in one shot we went for the one shot and was probably not the right approach ...
Values were:
FC: 0 ppm
TC: 1.1 ppm
Ph 7.9
TA: 309
CYA: 5 ppm
Hardness: 230ppm
Metals: 0
TDS: 500ppm
We added 4 quarts GLB Algaemycin 2000, brought the ph down to 7.2, added 8 lbs of stabilizer through the skimmer then 3 hours later poured in 8 gallons of liquid chlorine. Next morning pool was clear but the color of tea (brown). Now, chlorine (free and total) is higher than my ability to quantify with my test strips. Ph is 7.0. Added 1 quart clarifier and 3 qts metal magnet. Now the pool is green, somewhat cloudy, holding chlorine, but making me want to throw in the towel. Anybody want to weigh in on what's next?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Debits26

We added 4 quarts GLB Algaemycin 2000, brought the ph down to 7.2, added 8 lbs of stabilizer through the skimmer then 3 hours later poured in 8 gallons of liquid chlorine. Next morning pool was clear but the color of tea (brown). Now, chlorine (free and total) is higher than my ability to quantify with my test strips. Ph is 7.0. Added 1 quart clarifier and 3 qts metal magnet. Now the pool is green, somewhat cloudy, holding chlorine, but making me want to throw in the towel. Anybody want to weigh in on what's next?

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Sounds like you may have iron, and that that's what your dealer considered as a possibility . . . but he loaded you up with algaecide too.

If it was brown, but is now green and CLEAR, there's a fair chance you've got rust on the pool bottom. Color wise, blue water + orange rust creates an apparent green tint. So . . . vacuum the pool. If nothing changes, toss a couple of vitamin C tabs on the bottom, and see if it changes color -- if there are iron stains, the tabs will clear a small area.

Meanwhile:

+ It's much easier to answer your questions, when we have the details about your pool in one place. We often 'waste' the first few posts back and forth collecting information. So, please complete our new Pool Chart form -- it takes about 30 seconds, but will save much more than that.

Pool Chart Entry Form
Pool Chart Results

+ Pool tests for metals aren't always reliable, for a variety of reasons. If there's a chance you may hve iron or other metals in the water you fill your pool with, using a bucket test can verify the problem: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?16946

I added my pool info to the pool chart. Our well water is FULL of iron. We try to filter out as much as possible when we add water using a Metal Trap on the hose and a separate little submersible pump to send the water through an under sink filter contraption.

I looked at your chart; that's a big pool; small errors in chemistry are going to cost you a LOT of money.

I had to dig some more, to get the info I needed. Do these things:

1. Go to the Walmart in Woodstock, and get the HTH 6-way drops kit -- it shows to be currently in stock.

2. Go to the Sams Club in Crystal Lake and get their PoolBrand Chlorinating Granules - 50 lbs. for ~$115
If you aren't a member, call and see if you can get a guest pass.

3. Go to Amazon, and order a K2006 test kit (yes, you will need that, too)

Taylor K2006A (3/4 oz bottles) @ Amazon
Taylor K2006C (2 oz bottles) @ Amazon

4. Go to the Lake in the Hills Lowes, and get their "Crown" muriatic acid -- 6 gallons to start. While you're there, get some nitrile gloves (blue) and inexpensive safety glasses, if you don't have any. Do NOT get any of the 'safer' muriatic acid; DO read the muriatic acid sticky in my signature BEFORE using the muriatic.

5. As soon as you can conveniently do so, order 50 or 100 lbs of calcium hypochlorite from Amazon. Chlorinating with this will help remove iron, but you'll have to use the dichlor first, to get your stabilizer up.

6. See if you can get a small amount of DE powder from your pool store, or Lowes or Walmart. Add 2 - 4 cups directly to the skimmer, and then watch to see if the powder shoots back into the pool. If it does, your filter needs repair. If you can, open your filter ANYHOW, and make sure it's full with sand. If not, get enough filter sand from your pool store, or possibly Lowes, to fill it.

7. Make a dated list, as accurately as possible, of ALL the chemicals you've used in the last months, with EXACT product name, quantities and dates. Also include an inventory of what chemicals you have on hand.

8. Post that list AND test results from the HTH kit ASAP.

9. Begin dosing with the dichlor (Sams) ASAP. Start with 1 cup doses added directly to the pool - watch to see if there is any color change in the water. If there is not, gradually add larger and larger doses over an hour's interval, till you've added about 12 cups (~4 ppm of chlorine). If all goes well, you'll should begin adding 6 cups each AM and 8 cups each PM, till your pool begins holding 2 - 4 ppm of chlorine throughout the day.

10. Once you have established a constant chlorine level, BRUSH the pool completely. Then, add a 6 - 12 cup dose of dichlor after brushing.

11. Wait at least 12 hours, and then VACUUM the pool completely. Add at least a 6 cup dose of dichlor when you do.

12. Do NOT let your chlorine level go below 1 ppm at ANY time; it should be over 4 ppm EVERY night, AND first thing in the AM.

13. Meanwhile, begin adding 1 gallon muriatic acid doses till your pH reaches 7.4 or a little lower. Hold it at that level.

14. Tell me the EXACT model and make of your sand filter.

15. Verify your pool chart info: you have no pool heater and no other pool equipment except your feeder.

Couple of questions:
1. We have 8 lbs of stabilizer on hand. Should we use that and liquid chlorine instead of the Dichlor?
2. We have 11 bags of Sam's pool shock on hand. Is that the same as the granules?
3. Should we be keeping our inline chlorinator with 3 in trichlor tabs while we are getting in balance?

I appreciate your help very much!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Debits26

We have 8 lbs of stabilizer on hand. Should we use that and liquid chlorine instead of the Dichlor?

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That would be fine, but with a cartridge filter, it's rather hard to dissolve. Put it in some old athletic socks, and hang them in front of your returns.

Quote:

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We have 11 bags of Sam's pool shock on hand. Is that the same as the granules?

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If it's "PoolBrand" bagged shock, yes it is, and it's fine to use.

Quote:

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Should we be keeping our inline chlorinator with 3 in trichlor tabs while we are getting in balance?

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Don't use the chlorinator. If you still have tabs, put them in the skimmer. In your chlorinator, they tend to result in pools stains. But, in the skimmer, they tend to result in staining your cartridge . . . which is a GOOD thing. Just make sure that no OTHER chemicals (including bleach, but excepting borax) come into direct contact with the tabs.

PoolDoc:
Here's the list as best as I can supply. I ordered the Taylor kit from In the Swim yesterday and should get it tomorrow. I did not get the HTH kit as my pool is looking pretty good and I don't want to throw another $20 down the drain. Unless you tell me there's a reason I need both kits.

Chemicals we have on hand:
1. 5 Bags of Pool Brand dichlor pool shock
2. 3 gallons Transchem 20° Baume muriatic acid
3. Approx. 25 lbs of Pool Brand 3-in. tabs.

As for other equipment:
1. I can't tell you anymore about the filter. It is sand, made by Jacuzzi, approximately 36 in. diameter. We had it installed before 2005. We had a house fire in 2005 and lost paperwork like the pool filter manual, etc. (I guess I could get the records from the pool store ...)
2. We have a heater. The water runs through it, but it has not been able to heat the water since before the 2005 house fire. (we think the contractor forgot to attach the gas line, and we haven't needed it)
That's really it for equipment.

History of 2012 pool opening (sorry this is so long):

During the week of June 20th we drained the pool completely, sprayed down the debris and got it all out and started fresh with our iron-filled well water. We set up our hose to fill a small baby pool. Put our 1.25 hp submersible pump in the pool and pumped the water through a culligan undersink filter contraption. On June 23rd we realized too much iron was still getting through and we quit while we waited for the Metal Trap to be delivered. During the wait, we put 1 gallon of liquid chlorine in the deep end where the water was, then started using the 1.25 submersible pump to send the water in the pool through the culligan-type undersink filter. (we do catch a lot of the iron in that filter)

June 28, began filling again using the Metal Trap on our hose. No other chemical was added until we got it full, which was about July 3rd.
July 4th: Used test strips to measure levels. PH was 8+ Added 1 gallon Transchem muriatic acid (20• Baume 31.45%) and swam in it all day. Water was almost clear, sort of greenish
July 5th: Pool store provided the following measurements:
• Total chlorine: 0.5
• Free chlorine: 0
• CYA: 0
• PH: 8.2
• Alkalinity: 288
• Hardness: 325
• Copper: 0
• Iron: 0
• TDS: 300
Their suggestions scared me. Added 1 gallon muriatic acid no change in color or clarity, started trolling the pool forum to figure out if I should add chlorine slowly or all at once.

July 6th: Took a sample to a different pool store to test the info provided by the first store. I had only added that 1 gallon of muriatic and got these new numbers:
• TC: 1.1
• Free Chlorine: 0.0
• Combined Chlorine: 1.1
• CYA: 5
• PH: 7.9
• Alkalinity: 309
• Hardness: 230
• Copper:0
• Iron:0
• TDS: 500
• Nitrate: 1
Took their advice (BAD IDEA)
• Added 4 quarts GLB Algemycin 2000 ,
• 4 gallons Transchem muriatic acid,
• 4 lbs. Royal Stabilizer,
• 8 gallons of So White Swim Kleer bleach (12.5% sodium hypochlorite)

July 7th: Woke up to BROWN water, perfectly clear, but brown. Added 4 lbs. Stabilizer, 1 quart Lynde Co. Unique clarifier, 1 quart Bioguard Pool Magnet plus. Water changed to greenish. Went back to the second pool store to tell them what happened and showed them a picture. They had no idea, just told us to keep doing what they told us the day before. We left and have not been back.
Water measures from this day:
• TC: 7.6
• Free: 4.0
• Combined: 3.6
• CYA: 15
• PH: 7.2
• Alkalinity: 246
• Hardness: 230
• Copper .16 (from the algaeside, ya think?!!)
• Iron: 0
• TDS: 570
• Nitrate: 19

Added three more gallons of muriatic acid and two more quarts HTH metal control from Walmart in the afternoon. Water color and clarity hasn’t changed.

July 8th: Using AquaChem test strips
• FC: 10+
• TC: 10+
• CYA: Less than 30
• PH: ~7.6
• Alkalinity: ~200

Swam all day with 3 dogs and 10 people in and out of the pool.
Ph looked higher on the strip in the evening, and chlorine was still high. Added 3 gallons muriatic.

July 9th: Backwashed in the morning, put one Pool Brand triclor 3-in. tab in the skimmer and started adding fill water on top of the tab, still using the Metal Trap. Test strips showed:
• FC: 8
• TC: 8
• CYA: Less than 30
• PH: 7.2
• Alkalinity in range
Have completely realized the color is due to stain on the fiberglass sides and concrete bottom. Got ascorbic acid to test. Amazing!!!!! Color comes right off the fiberglass. Have not tried the concrete.
Followed Ben’s advice all day yesterday with chlorine, though most likely our chlorine is fine. It’s been very high and holding since Saturday. Ordered the Taylor test kit. Since our chlorine is high, I’m going to wait the two days to get the Taylor kit and not spend the extra $20 on the HTH kit.

Total of 12 cups of Pool Brand dichlor added today.
• Free and Total Chlorine is higher than test strips will measure
• CYA: probably still under 30
• PH: 7.6
• Alkalinity in range.

July 10th: I will get the test kit tomorrow or Thursday, and provide accurate measurements. Until then, I think we will sit on it. Water is clearer this morning, and chlorine is still higher than can be discerned using test strips. I think our real problem with water color and clarity is the metal stain on all surfaces. Would like to use Ascorbic acid to clean it all off. I printed off the Sticky forum post instructions for doing that.
1. What brand of sequestering agent do you recommend to keep the metal from restaining the surfaces?
2. Is there any product or process that will actually get the metal out? I saw an entry on the forum at one point, but can’t find it again. Can you point me there?

1. I hope you got the K-2006 FAS-DPD (listed at $85 for the K-2006A) and not the K-2005 (listed at $70 for the K2005A). If not, you'll need to order the K-1515.

2. The HTH is a re-labeled Taylor, with an OTO / phenol red block. Unlike the DPD color match in the K2005, OTO provides a reliable and inexpensive way to QUICKLY test the water. So, it's helpful to have both.

3. The complete metal stain removal process is here: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?7923
Please note that NONE of the steps are optional, so far as we know. Also, the process MUST proceed in the order described; do it out of order and you are likely to waste both your time and your money. Order links for the products needed are present on that page. If you choose NOT to use those order links, you must be VERY careful, particularly with the HEDP. Other liquid stain and scale product have different ingredients, and are NOT adequate substitutes.

4. I'm not going to put much effort into working out your test results, till you have some version of the Taylor. We see too many bogus 'guess-strip' results to be willing to trust them. The pH test is usually not too bad, and the chlorine test is about as accurate as OTO testing, but with a narrower range. CH and TA testing can be pretty bad, and CYA results are often random.

But it looks like things are generally moving in a positive direction, and that your high TA is responding to keeping the pH low.

Got my Taylor K2006 and tested everything, though I'm not exactly sure what 2 "dippers" are?

FC: 15.0
TC: .5
CYA: <30
Ph: 7.0 (5 drops to get to 7.4)
TA: 165
Hardness: 350
Saturation index: .15

Water is clear, any color is the reflection from the stain. But I think the stain is lightening each day probably due to the metal out I put in over the weekend.

I know I need to get more CYA in, and probably raise the pH. Do I need to lower the chlorine, or just let the sun do the work?

Thanks again for holding my hand through this!!

Correction: saturation index is -.15

Also, what is the PF: 2.7 in my signature line?

Do NOT raise the pH; your TA needs to drop, and you'll also tend to restain. Hold the pH at 7.0 - 7.2 until your TA is around 100.

Consider buying some CuLater units:
The CuLator product is a special patented plastic material, contained in a bag that goes into the skimmer, that can slowly take metals OUT of your pool water. We think it works, and have some evidence that it does, but not proof yet. (Not likely to be available locally.)

1 ppm Culator @ Amazon
1.5 ppm Culator sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
4 ppm Culator sold by Amazon, shipped from Periodic
Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner @ Amazon (to protect CuLator from being damaged by scum)

Remember, any metal lifted by the Metal Out is STILL in the pool water. Since you have a sand filter, you can remove metals by chlorinating with cal hypo in a somewhat tricky way -- but the CuLator units are much less tricky and seem to work.

Dichlor is a VERY easy way to chlorinate in your situation -- it adds chlorine (good), adds CYA (good for now) and tends to lower the pH (also, good for now!) The trick is getting dichlor that hasn't been diluted with goop that useless or worse (and I mean that literally, not figuratively!). If you have access, Sams Club is the cheapest source, but the Kem-Tek at Amazon is not bad:

24 lbs PoolBrand bagged shock @ Sams Club
Kem-Tek Dichlor 22 lbs @ Amazon

The pool has been looking pretty good for the last few days. Here's my primary question at this point:

In my large pool, how much of the different chlorine sources will add 1ppm to the overall pool?
Dichlor
Bleach
Trichlor pucks

Once I have those numbers stuck in my head, I'll be able to maintain the right FC levels. Last night we were still at 11ppm. I'll test again when I get home in about an hour.

This weekend, I will be adding another quart of metal out to the pool and getting in with a sock filled with ascorbic acid to wipe the iron stain off the fiberglass walls. Wish me luck!!

• Dichlor (from the sources I recommended) is 55% avail Cl2
• Trichlor (from Sams Club) is 90% available Cl2
• 6% bleach is approximately 0.5 lbs Cl2 per gallon
• Your PF is 2.7

So

1 lb dichlor => 0.55 x 2.7 = ~1.5ppm
1 lb trichlor => 0.90 x 2.7 = ~2.4 ppm
1 gal 6% bleach => 0.5 x 2.7 = ~1.4 ppm

PoolDoc,
Thanks for all your help earlier this month! My pool has been looking good. I did the ascorbic acid treatment last weekend and most of the stains are gone. Thank you all for that great trick! My pool has really never looked better. The only problem is that while the acid was working, I had the filter on Recirculate, and lost about 5 inches of water depth. I had to add a lot of water the next day (adding some more metal into the mix).

Since then, I've been adding about 1 lb. of dichlor a day over the last week and now the water is white cloudy. We are unable to see the main drain through the water and I fear I'm on the verge of an algae bloom. After the acid treatment, I put 64 oz. sequestrant, and the filter has been running 24/7.
Here are my numbers today:
FC: 0
TC: .5
pH: 7.4
TA: 125
CH: 300
CYA: 35
Obviously, I need to get the chlorine levels up. I have added 5 bags of dichlor this week, and I added 85 oz. of polyquat. I'm planning to bring the chlorine up to shock level tonight (15ppm). If there's anything else I should do, or if any of this sounds off, please let me know.

Thanks again for all your help.

When you shock the pool, you may get staining again. Whenever you have metal-contaminated water, it is critical that you never let your chlorine level get lower than the minimum advised in the Best Guess Chlorine Chart. That way, you won't have to shock for an impending algae bloom. Otherwise, you just have a repeating cycle. If you have algae, you have to get the chlorine level up enough to kill it and then, if you have staining, you'll have to do another ascorbic acid treatment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Debits26

The only problem is that while the acid was working, I had the filter on Recirculate, and lost about 5 inches of water depth. I had to add a lot of water the next day (adding some more metal into the mix).

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You may need to look into repairing or replacing your multiport -- you shouldn't have lost any more water than normal, while on recirculate.

Follow Watermom's caution - it's best if you can avoid having to shock a pool with metal problems. You can add dichlor or bleach via the skimmer, which will tend to drop out metals onto the filter.

Also, you need to keep HEDP on hand, and add a small (maybe 1/8 normal) dose TOGETHER with the fill water, when ever you add water. If you have a CuLator bag, it would be good if you can put it back in, for at least a couple of days after each water addition.