Question about shock and chlorine

I've got a 15' x 48" Intex Easy Set pool. I don't know the exact capacity but, based on googling the pool and looking at various listings, I believe it's in the neighborhood of 4,000 gallons. This is only my second summer with the pool. When I set it up a week ago, I added a whole pound of shock along with 5 or 6 one inch chlorine tablets in the floater. This was about 3 times as much shock as needed, of course, as I found out later when I referred to my notes from last year (that's what I get trying to work from memory). The chlorine levels weren't rising as fast as I had expected and I started to worry about algae. Therefore, I added 6 more chlorine tablets a couple of days later.

Now, my chlorine levels are too high. I took the chlorine floater out of the pool about 2 days ago and have been testing twice a day. I assumed the levels would have started dropping by now but there's been no change. The weather has been on the cool and cloudy side and I wonder if that is a factor (I seem to recall reading that heat and sunlight speed up chlorine dissipation). I'm testing with the AquaChem kit that uses 5 drops of two chemicals, one for chlorine and one for pH. I'm sure you know the one I mean. pH looks pretty good, although I did have to lower it a few days ago after a big rainstorm.

I'm wondering if I'm on the right track here or whether I should be doing something else. Sorry if I haven't posted all the relevant information. Or a bunch of irrelevant information. :-) Thanks for any information you can provide.

Donovan

Hi Donovan, and welcome to the forum!!

When you say your levels are too high, what exactly do you mean? Can you post results for your chlorine and pH, taken with your kit? If your chlorine is higher than what the yellow scale will register, you can always dilute the pool water 1:1 with distilled water, mix, and test from that--and multiply your test result x 2. It's a ballpark, but it gives us more information than "too high".

What was the ingredient in the shock? How does your water look?

Sunlight will bring the chlorine down (as will a large bather load:) ), but you may still be okay to swim...

Thanks for the welcome!

I am at work right now and can't give you the exact numbers but will post tonight after I test again. I can tell you right now, though, that the chlorine is off the yellow scale. pH is in the normal zone.

The water is very clear, except when I run the pump which makes it cloudy. There's some fine dirt in the pool which is getting stirred up so I think that's a red herring. I vacuumed a lot out yesterday but there was still some settled on the bottom this morning.

You mentioned it maybe being OK to swim. That leads me to the other question I was going to post today. I was going to make it a separate thread but since we're already here... We did go ahead and swim on Saturday (a couple of days ago) even though the chlorine was high. Two of us (me and a four-year old) are fine. The third (six-year old) woke up the next morning with tiny red bumps all over. Very itchy. I remember her being more sensitive last year, too, so I can't say I'm that surprised. We're treating her with various lotions and baking soda in the bathtub but swimming is out of the question for awhile. Which leaves me with a question. Is this the "pool rash" I hear so much about? And, if so, what causes it? I've read online about high chlorine and bacteria being known causes. Is there any way to know which is which?

The fact that only one of us got it PLUS the high chlorine levels in the water (which I'd think would kill bacteria) make me pretty sure it was the chlorine that did it. Still, I've yet to see anything online that really explains the difference between the two causes.

Thanks again and let me know if I need to move that second issue to a new thread.

Donovan

OK, got some numbers. The chlorine level has finally come down and is around 1.5 to 3.0. I'm having a hard time pinpointing it further because I'm having a hard time seeing the color difference between the two levels. I think I need to get a more precise testing kit. pH is 7.6. The active ingredient in the shock is Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione. As I said above, the water is crystal clear. I mentioned it getting cloudy when I ran the filtering pump; I ran it all last night and the water stayed clear this time.

You are right that you need a good test kit. The only one we truly recommend is the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C. You can get it through the test kit page in my signature below. It is only available online however, so you'll need something to use while you wait on your good kit. Get a cheap OTO (yellow drops) / phenol test kit, or if available at YOUR Walmart (check availability), get the HTH 6-way DROPS test kit, which is compatible with the Taylor K2006. Test the pool as soon and you can, and post the results. If you get the 6-way kit, ALSO test the water you FILL the pool with, especially if it's a well, and post THOSE results as well. (The HTH is the best available kit you're likely to find locally, but it's not the K-2006. It can only provide rough measurements chlorine levels above 5 ppm, and it measures "TOTAL" hardness, rather than "CALCIUM" hardness, which is not ideal.)

It's much easier to answer your questions, when we know something about your pool. We often 'waste' the first few posts back and forth collecting information. So, please complete our new Pool Chart form -- it takes about 30 seconds, but will save much more than that.

Pool Chart Entry Form
Pool Chart Results

Can you look on the label of the dichlor package and see what other ingredients are listed? Some pool chemical companies are starting to add a bunch of unwanted stuff.

One very important reading that we need is your CYA level. If you don't find the HTH 6-Way kit, see if you can find a reputable pool store who can test your CYA level for you. (By the way, that is one of the tests that comes in the K-2006 kit.) You only want them to do the test for you if they do the "disappearing black dot" test. Don't let them talk you into buying a bunch of stuff while you are there. And, they will try!

Hope this helps some.

Just to be clear, I've been checking the chlorine with the OTO kit. It looks like the local WalMart has the HTH kit and I'll pick one up this afternoon after work. The Taylor kit looks nice and I'll see about getting one ordered. I'll check the CYA level and post results tonight.

I tried to fill out the Pool Chart Entry Form but got hung up on my PF User ID. It's required and I can't seem to find it. I don't have access to My Profile yet, presumably because I'm still a Trial Member.

About the shock. The package doesn't list any other ingredients other than the dichlor. It just says 58.2% dichlor and 41.8% Other Ingredients. :-)

Your PF user ID is your screen name...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aylad

Your PF user ID is your screen name...

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Well, so it is. Somehow, I got it into my head that it was asking for a number. I have now filled the form out.

I also picked up the hth 6-way test kit and have run all the tests:
Chlorine 2
Bromine 4
pH 7.8
Alkalinity 260 ppm
Hardness 310 ppm
CYA 30+ ppm (I have to add the plus because the black dot in the test vial had not disappeared yet when I reached 30 and couldn't add any more liquid)

Your numbers don't look too bad...you don't have a bromine pool, so you can ignore that one. And your CYA is less than 30, if you ran out of room in the tube before the dot disappeared, so you're ok with chlorine at 1-3 ppm. Your hardness is a bit high but shouldn't cause you any problems unless you chlorinate with cal-hypo, and then you're asking for milky water problems, so I would avoid using that form of chlorine. Your alk is high too, but if that's the same as your fill water, then there's not much to be gained from trying to lower it.

It would be interesting for you to test the water at night for chlorine, and then test it again in the morning before the sun hits the pool, to see if you're losing chlorine overnight. If so, then it's possible that the CC resulting from the chlorine fight going on in the pool might have caused the rash that you saw.

Janet

First of all, you don't have a bromine pool so just ignore that side of the tester. Also, if the black dot was still visible, then you have less than 30ppm of CYA, not more.

Your alk, pH and calcium hardness are all high. Run the calcium and alk test on your fill water and post the results.

Read the using muriatic acid safely page linked in my signature below and also the following about lowering alk. Lowering Alkalinity Step-by-Step

Then, work on lowering your pH to 7.2ish and the alk to 80-100 or so.

Hey, I just said that!! (or most of it, anyway ;) )

My post button is just working faster than Watermom's tonight :D

Janet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aylad

Hey, I just said that!! (or most of it, anyway ;) )

My post button is just working faster than Watermom's tonight :D

Janet

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Or --- else I am turning into a parrot!! :eek::eek: Gee -- I sure hope not! Nah, your post button is just faster tonight. :)

Rofl....:D

This is a continuation of a thread of the same title I started over in the Getting Started forum. I can no longer post there, presumably since I'm no longer a trial member. Apologies in advance if this is not the preferred way of handling the situation.

Anyway, Watermom and aylad (who have been awesome) asked me to post some more information. I didn't get it done yesterday due to a summer thunderstorm that kept us all inside for the day. But now I have test results (hth 6-way test kit) on my fill water:
Alkalinity: 290 ppm
Hardness: 300 ppm

Numbers from my pool, tested a few minutes ago:
Chlorine: 3
pH: 8.2

Just to recap, here are the test numbers from Tuesday (06-19-2012):
Chlorine 2
pH 7.8
Alkalinity 260 ppm
Hardness 310 ppm
CYA <30 ppm (ran out of room in the test vial before the black dot disappeared)

I've done nothing to the pool since Tuesday other than add 1/3 lb of shock (58.2% dichlor and 41.8% Other Ingredients), which I did Tuesday night. Hope that didn't screw up our troubleshooting but it had been a week since I shocked it and I let my worries get the better of me.

aylad mentioned my chlorine tabs RE: the high Hardness reading. It's been over a week since I put any in but the ones I have are 99% Trichloro-s-triazinetrione / 1% Other Ingredients. aylad also suggested tackling my high pH and Alkalinity using muriatic acid, which I can do next. Having said that, I'm going to hold off until I hear back from one of you now that I've posted more test results.

Finally, aylad suggested checking my Chlorine in the early morning to see if I am losing any overnight. I will do that first thing tomorrow and post the results.

I have ordered the Taylor K-2006A and expect to have it in a few days. After that, I can other tests as needed.

My daughter is mostly recovered from her rash but my wife has (not unreasonably) vetoed any further swimming until I figure out what happened. She also was talking to someone who suggested dropping chlorine and using bromine. I don't know much about that but what little I've read makes me not want to do it. Plus, it would mean that the chlorine problem defeated me. :-)

You folks are awesome. Thanks again for your help.

Donovan

membership upgraded / post moved out of Getting Started. -ben

Go ahead and work on lowering the pH and alk as suggested in the previous posts. Using dichlor or trichlor are both good choices for you right now as it will do two things you need to do: add CYA and lower pH. Once your CYA gets to 50 or so, you'll want to stop using either and switch to bleach. (Don't test CYA too often so you won't run out of testing reagent.) I also would suggest NOT using cal-hypo at any point since your calcium hardness reading is so high.

Go ahead and post your overnight test results and we'll have a look.

(By the way, your new post was combined into your old thread so we can keep all your info in one place.)

Thanks for moving the post. I tested again this morning and chlorine is at 2, down from last night's reading of 3. pH is 8.2 and I added 3/4 cup of AquaChem pH Down. I'm off work today and will test pH again in a few hours.

I just noticed that your Alkalinity is pretty high.
Is this also true of your fill water?
Is this the same water your daughter (with the rash) bathes in?

I ask because I have read, and I don't know that it's true, that high Alkalinity can cause skin irritation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by donovan.lambright

The third (six-year old) woke up the next morning with tiny red bumps all over. Very itchy. I remember her being more sensitive last year, too, so I can't say I'm that surprised. We're treating her with various lotions and baking soda in the bathtub but swimming is out of the question for awhile. Which leaves me with a question. Is this the "pool rash" I hear so much about? And, if so, what causes it?

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Caution! These links include medical nudity. (They are also gross, Watermom!)

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/swim...-tub-rash.html
http://dermdiaries.com/wp-content/up...d-1024x590.jpg
http://hardinmd.lib.uiowa.edu/folliculitishottub.html
http://www.medbc.com/annals/review/v...vol9n4p204.htm

It sounds like your daughter may NOT have folliculitis; the incubation period is longer than than that. However, chlorine is NOT an allergen.

Period. End of story.

We dealt with this at great length, earlier this year. What finally put it to bed was discovering that dermatologists still routinely use an old treatment, "bleach baths" with 50 - 100 ppm of chlorine, to treat a wide variety of skin conditions!

Unfortunately, the hodge podge voodoo blended shocks, like the one you have (see below) DO sometimes contain chemicals that are known allergens and irritants.

Also, though sodium bromide -- and bromine generated from sodium bromide -- is not an allergen so far as we know, bromine in solid form is bound to DHM -- dimethyl hydantoin -- which can be a SEVERE irritant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by donovan.lambright

About the shock. The package doesn't list any other ingredients other than the dichlor. It just says 58.2% dichlor and 41.8% Other Ingredients. :-)

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That means, 42% potential problems!

Give that stuff away. Or flush it down the toilet, a little at a time, but ONLY if you are on sewers. Do NOT dump a bunch in septic tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by donovan.lambright

. It's been over a week since I put any in but the ones I have are 99% Trichloro-s-triazinetrione / 1% Other Ingredients.

My daughter is mostly recovered from her rash but my wife has (not unreasonably) vetoed any further swimming until I figure out what happened. She also was talking to someone who suggested dropping chlorine and using bromine. I don't know much about that but what little I've read makes me not want to do it. Plus, it would mean that the chlorine problem defeated me.

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The tabs are fine.

I looked at your chart -- 4,000 gallons doesn't cost that much. If it's not a big deal for you, drain and refill it. But NOT till you are ready to follow a plan. Read the Intex recipe in this section of the forum, and be ready to follow it BEFORE you drain and refill.

As promised, I have checked the pool again.
Chlorine: 1
pH: 7.5

My understanding is that these are both in the acceptable range. I will refrain from using any more of trichlor shock.

Clarification question for PoolDoc: Are you suggesting that I need to drain and restart now or only if I decided to use bromine instead of chlorine?

Looking at those pictures, there are some differences between them and what my daughter had. The bumps were smaller, there were a lot more of them, and they were much more densely packed together. So I'm not sure what to think.

BigDave: Yes the alkalinity in my fill water was pretty close to that in the pool. And it is the same water she bathes in.

Unless PoolDoc tells me I need to drain and refill, my next move seems to be adding a few chlorine tabs to keep the chlorine from dropping any further and tackling the alkalinity issue based on the information aylad posted. Or should I just start using bleach as outlined in PoolDoc's Recipe?

Thanks again for all the help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by donovan.lambright

...Yes the alkalinity in my fill water was pretty close to that in the pool. And it is the same water she bathes in...

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That rules out the Alk as the cause of the rash. Good to know.

We tried swimming again today (Sunday). Chlorine was at 2 and pH at 7.8; other tests in the hth 6-way kit were the same as previously posted. Once again, she got the rash. This time, the itching started within a few hours. She can't sleep tonight because of the itching, which is why I'm writing this in the middle of the night.

I'm sure my frustration is worse right now because of the lack of sleep but I'm just about ready to take the pool down. I'm willing to drain and refill but not without some firm idea of what will change. As it is, all the test numbers appear to be within the acceptable range. Alkalinity and hardness are high but they're equally high in the fill water, which we use to bathe in without incident. They only thing I can see as a possible answer is that I put in 3 times the recommended dosage of AquaChem Shock Plus at the pool opening, almost a month ago. With 42% unlisted ingredients, it's hard to say what effect that might have had.

But that's all unproven hypothesis right now. As I said, I'm willing to drain it and try again but, with the source of the problem still unknown, I fear adding another 4,000 gallons to my water bill only to have the same problem yet again. I've ordered the Taylor kit but it hasn't arrived yet. Is there any test in that kit that measures something which could account for this? I feel like I'm shooting in the dark.

Sorry to vent like this. I'm just about at my wit's end and am seriously thinking of throwing in the towel. Thanks for listening.

Donovan

Donovan, I totally understand your frustration. As a mother myself, I know how it feels to have your little ones hurting and not know what is causing it. Let me ask Ben to look at your thread and see if he has any ideas. He is on a family reunion and may not be back around the forum until tomorrow, so sit tight for now.

(Maybe try an Aveeno oatmeal bath in tepid water to help calm the itching?)

I am going to throw out something else. Is the rash on areas that were covered by her bathing suit or on areas that were not? What is the suit made of and how has it been washed?

Donovan,
A few threads for you to read (obviously the whole threads won't apply to your situation but you may get some helpful info from them):

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...lorine-Allergy

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthr...pm-bad-for-you

I also talked with Ben and he suggested that you try and isolate which specific ingredient might be causing the problems by using them one at a time in the bathtub. (It was mentioned in threads I referenced.)

To cut and paste what he told me this morning:
"There's a thread in China Shop abt chlorine allergy u can point him to. But he'll need to do single item testing in the tub with just legs. I'd go polyquat, bleach, borax, dichlor. Once he has enough chems to maintain a pool, he can drain & refill. Chlorine alone is not the problem, but chlorine is rarely alone -- so no telling what's actually in his pool!"



Do them in the order he suggest above starting with the Polyquat. If that product causes no sensitivity issues, then you can proceed to the next one. Always drain and rinse out the tub well before using the next item.

When you get to the point of testing the dichlor, please don't use the product you used before. Actually, we usually only recommend using dichlor purchased at Sam's (100% dichlor) or Amazon's Kem-Tek dichlor.

The Polyquat is 60% which is the only algaecide we recommend.


Let us know what you find out and then I'm sure Ben will be around to advise you further. Hope this helps.

Thanks, everyone. I've taken a few deep breaths and calmed down. Fortunately, the list of things I've put in the pool is pretty short:
--AquaChem Shock Plus (58.2% dichlor and 41.8% "other ingredients")
--hth pH Down (a couple of small doses--3/4 cup each time)
--1 inch chlorine tabs in the floater (99% Trichloro-s-triazinetrione and 1% other ingredients)

That's it. Nothing else has gone into the water. As discussed earlier, I did overdose (by a factor of 3) on the shock when opening the pool. In light of the short list of ingredients, is it still worth it to do the bathtub test? Not trying to argue with those who know better; just trying to understand.

While I've had my pH down to 7.5, I never got it down to 7.2 as advised in a previous post. I also have not done much on reducing the alkalinity as advised above.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Need to add one thing to my list of chemicals added to the pool, which I forgot in my previous post:

3/4 cup of hth Algecide, added when I opened the pool about 3 weeks ago. That is really it.

Thanks for bearing with me.

Donovan

EDIT by Watermom: 2 posts in the queue were merged together

For those who asked about the rash...

It is appearing all over but is worse where the swimming suit touches the body. It's lots of small reddish bumps, packed densely together where the swimsuit sits, less dense on other areas like the stomach and back. The swimsuit is a two-piece.

I'm not sure what it's made of but will check and post. It's been washed with pretty standard washing detergent. I'll check and get more details.

The MSDS for Aqua Chem Shock Plus lists it as a skin irritant and sensitizer in section 11 Toxicological Information.

The reason for the bath tub test is to try and narrow down what might be causing your child's rash. If you test each of those items one at a time and she does not have any reactions, then you can drain your pool and refill and use those products only and she should be fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Watermom

The reason for the bath tub test is to try and narrow down what might be causing your child's rash. If you test each of those items one at a time and she does not have any reactions, then you can drain your pool and refill and use those products only and she should be fine.

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Got it. My thought was that those were all pretty well known chemicals that were "safe". Having read more, including PoolDoc's threads, I understand that nothing is really "safe" in this kind of mystery. Sometimes, I wish I could take back messages where I say something dumb and then realize my error. :-)

One practical question I have is quantity of each chemical. How do you scale it down to a bathtub? I saw in one of the threads PoolDoc posted a reference to 2 teaspoons of bleach. Does that scale the same for things like Algicide and pH Down? Or is there formula to use?

Thanks for the clarification, Watermom!


Donovan

I am asking Ben to see if I can find out amounts for you. I'll let you know when I hear back from him.

Actually, in the meantime, why don't you go ahead and start with the test with the bleach since that is the one amount we do know. I know it isn't the order he suggested above, but that's not going to matter.

Sounds good, Watermom. It'll be a few days before I'm ready to start testing; I'd like to let her heal up a little before trying anything else. She's much better today.

About the swimsuit: the outer shell is nylon, the inner shell is polyester, and there's a little spandex for stretchiness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by donovan.lambright

About the swimsuit: the outer shell is nylon, the inner shell is polyester, and there's a little spandex for stretchiness.

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Spandex and syntehtics have been known to cause reactions.
http://www.latexallergyresources.org...-and-allergies

Sounds like I should have her wear her swimsuit when I do the bathtub tests.

When you are attempting to isolate a problem, you can have only one variable change at a time. So, she should NOT wear the suit as that is another variable in the mystery. You might do a test with just having her play in the bathtub with her swimsuit on without adding anything to the water. If that doesn't cause skin reactions, then you can rule out the swim suit as being the problem.

Water bear asked:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waterbear

...Is the rash on areas that were covered by her bathing suit or on areas that were not?...

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So, if the rash is on skin touched by the suit, the suit may be causing or contributing to the rash.

Like Watermom said - change only one variable at a time to avoid confounding your results.

Got it. I misread Waterbear's post as implying that those materials can react to pool chemicals, not that they could cause a reaction themselves. Thanks for the clarification!

My Taylor K-2006A kit just arrived!

You sound like a kid at Christmas! :)

In order for me to figure reasonable dose, I'll need to get some kind of estimate of the gallons your tub holds. You can determine that by:

1. Adjusting the flow to a reasonable level, with the drain open.
2. Filling an empty milk jug and timing how long it takes to fill.
3. Closing the drain and then filling the tub, and timing that interval.
4. Then, dividing the tub interval by the jug interval to give approximate gallons.

Be sure to have her get in, and make sure you haven't selected an overfilled level.

With many tub surfaces, you can mark the line with a magic marker, and then remove the mark with rubbing alcohol. But, some surfaces are porous, so test this with a small inconspicuous mark, before you do anything more visible.