Need help with metal remover products

Hello all,
I have an Intex 16 x 48 pool with a saltwater system. I also have well water. For the last few years (with slighlty smaller pools), I've spent the summer emptying my pool to refill again and again. Like many on here I've spent enough money that I could have had an in-ground pool by now. Last summer someone told my husband that a saltwater system would solve all our problems. Here we are with only one week and back to the same old problems.

During the first week the saltwater system would generate chlorine for 2 hours every day and we didn't seem to have any problems. Then we had a couple of heavy rainstorms and I noticed this morning the dreaded green tint to the water. The instructions for the saltwater system said to hit the "Boost" button and within 2 hours the pool water was so dark it's almost black. From what I'm reading online I need to get a "metal out" product. There are so many different brands that I'm not sure which one to use. I'd like to get one that works the first time I buy so I'm hoping I can get some opinions on what has worked for others.

Last year I bought a filter to put on the end of my hose so the water wouldn't have anything in it. That tiny filter cost a lot of money for a one time use and did not work because the green to brown water was right back. I have also used Iron Out and while it did clear it up, it didn't keep it that way. Then I read on their website not to use it in pools, so I don't want to try that again. I've seen a product called Natural Chemistry Metal Free, and another called Doheny's extra strength Metal Out. Has anyone used either of these products? Does it work right away or does it need a few days to change the water back? Any help would be appreciated.

Hi tinal,

I'll let some of the others give you recommendations for specific metal sequestrants, but just wanted to explain that the metal sequestrants don't actually remove the metals from the water, they just hold them in solution so they don't precipitate and stain your pool or water. That effect will be temporary, because chlorine does break down the chemical that is in the sequestrant, so if you have metals in the water, it's going to be a "forever" process to keep them sequestered. High levels of chlorine will make them reappear again, which is what happened when you "boosted" the output of your SWCG.

The saltwater chlorine generator uses the salt to make chlorine, so using that is no different than using any other source of chlorine when it comes to well water--you still need to keep your chlorine levels at the right level for your CYA, and keep metal sequstrant in the water.

Again, I'm sure one of the others will be by shortly to recommend a specific product, but in the meantime you can use the google search feature in my sig to search the other parts of the forum for similar posts, although you may need to log out before you can read the resulting threads until your registration is completed.

By the way, I deleted your duplicate post--when new members post, their posts to go a queue to wait to be approved by Ben or one of the moderators, so that's why you didn't see your post show up immediately.

Hi Janet. Glad you deleted the first post. I knew it wouldn't show up right away but when I made the first post I got a message box that told me I needed to be signed in to do that. I thought it took me so long to make the post that I timed out, so I re-made the post. Seems like no matter how much I read about this metal mess I still don't understand it. I thought the metal out product would get it out once and for all so thank you for clearing that up for me. Am I correct in thinking that once I find a product that works to clear the brown out I would use it weekly as a maintenance product?

We've been running behind, ever since mid-week before Memorial Day. Hopefully, we'll get caught back up this week.

If you find dealing with metals confusing, you're not alone. This is my site, and I've been working with pool chemistry for 25+ years, and I *still* haven't worked it out. It doesn't help that pool chemical companies mislabel and misrepresent their products. For example, none of the liquid "metal removers" actually remove metals from your pool! They can help keep metals in the water in a soluble and clear form, but the metals are mostly still there.

Do NOT use Metal Free -- Natural Chemistry has been changing the contents of their bottles, without changing the labels to reflect that. I'm not sure what's in Doheny's product, so it might be helpful, or it might not.

Basically, the process you want to follow is:

1. Remove as much iron as possible BEFORE the water goes into the pool. We don't have any sure-fire solution at this stage.
2. Fill cautiously, and add HEDP to keep the metal in solution, rather than orange mud in your water or on your pool floor.
3. Filter constantly, so as the HEDP breaks down the iron ends up on the filter, rather than in the pool.
4. Improve your filtration with a larger Intex filter OR a better cartridge (Unicel, rather than Intex)
5. Avoid new problems by topping off with more well water, slowly and by using a trichlor tab in the skimmer.
6. Managing your pool well by keeping your chlorine and pH levels stable, and changing them (when they need changing) gradually rather than all at once.

Here's a list of items you may want, with possible sources. Please note that you probably do NOT want or need everything below!

HTH 6-way *drops* test kit @ Walmart
(A cheaper and acceptable substitute for the Taylor K-2006, if available. Only some Walmarts have them. The kit is made by Taylor.)
Cheap OTO / phenol red kit for daily testing (available at Walmart, if the HTH 6way is not)
K-2006 test kit -- 'THE' test kit we recommend and use. Read the test kit page in my signature.

20% KemTek HEDP @ Amazon
Kem-Tek trichlor tabs @ Amazon
(you can buy locally, but watch out for blended tabs -- avoid if the chlorine % is less than 88%, or if copper is listed as an ingredient!)
Kem-Tek 60% polyquat @ Amazon
(algaecide and clarifier that will NOT mess up your pool -- see www.poolsolutions.com/polyquat.html )
Vitamin C for removing stains @ Amazon (if you only need a little, it's probably better to buy Vitamin C tabs locally)

Unicel C-4607 replacement for 'A' or 'C' cartridges @ Amazon
Unicel C-5315 replacement for 'B' cartridges @ Amazon
1lb Savogran 10621 Trisodium Phosphate (TSP) @ Amazon
Rubbermaid BRUTE Gray 10 Gal Container w/o Lid @ Amazon
Round Brute Lid For 10-Gallon Waste Containers, 16" Diameter, Gray
(Get the super-heavyweight Rubbermaid can if you like, but something similar locally is also fine)

Finally, you can get free 2-day shipping from Amazon, if you get their 'trial' of Amazon Prime. Just be careful to cancel it, if you don't want to keep it.

Thank you so much for all the info and the links. I used your links to order some of the products and even did the Prime Membership but the HEDP ships 2-5 weeks even with the membership. I'm going to see if I can find someplace that can ship it faster. I have been wondering if a larger filter would help.

I have tried in the past using a pre-filter on my hose. Total waste of money for us. It's called Eco-One Pre-Filter. Not sure if anyone else on here has tried it but we tried it twice and still had the green it was /brown water. With tax and shipping it was over $50....if it worked it would have been worth it. Here's the web site if you are interested:
http://www.pacificsandsinc.com/html/pre-filters.html
Thank you again for the help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tina411

but the HEDP ships 2-5 weeks even with the membership.

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Darn it. I was trying to pick things that had definite ingredients, and would ship quickly. But apparently this warm winter and spring has played havoc on some inventories. Anyhow here's an alternative:
Jacks Magic The Pink Stuff 1qt (60% HEDP)
It is 60%, instead of 20% (GOOD!), and does not ship directly from Amazon (BAD!), but it should ship faster than the *new* Amazon shipping schedule.

The problem with many of the other products is that the are things like sodium citrate (not chlorine compatible!) or EDTA (barely chlorine compatible). There are more products out there with HEDP, but it's hard to identify them.

Several years ago when having problems with stains, probably iron, I got rid of the stains using ascorbic acid (I forget the exact procedure) and started using Jack's Magic Purple Stuff to keep the stains from returning (initial dose of 2 qts, then 12 oz each week in my 20k gal vinyl IG pool). I've been using it for several years now and they stains have not returned.

Speaking of using HEDP sequestrants, I understand that chlorine breaks them down. Ben, does that mean that my regular addition of HEDP (I add 12oz of Purple Stuff each week per instructions) is increasing chlorine demand? I wondering if by using this product I'm shortening the life of my salt cell?

Something else I don't understand. I know the HEDP sequestrant keeps the metals in solution, but you mentioned that as it breaks down the metals will end up in the filter? The Purple Stuff I use claims it allows the filter to trap the metals so they won't stain the pool. Does this mean that is some indirect way the HEDP helps remove the metals via the filter?

BTW, I'm in the process of testing my pool for metals using your bucket technique you suggested. I'll let you know the results.

Thanks.

Using HEDP regularly increases chlorine demand slightly, but the phosphonates break down to plain old phosphates, which encourage algae.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

Darn it. I was trying to pick things that had definite ingredients, and would ship quickly. But apparently this warm winter and spring has played havoc on some inventories. Anyhow here's an alternative:
Jacks Magic The Pink Stuff 1qt (60% HEDP)
It is 60%, instead of 20% (GOOD!), and does not ship directly from Amazon (BAD!), but it should ship faster than the *new* Amazon shipping schedule.

The problem with many of the other products is that the are things like sodium citrate (not chlorine compatible!) or EDTA (barely chlorine compatible). There are more products out there with HEDP, but it's hard to identify them.

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If it's not inappropriate (Ben, please delete this if so), I've always received a good deal and great service from poolgeek.com for Jack's Magic products and the polyquat I use.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

Using HEDP regularly increases chlorine demand slightly, but the phosphonates break down to plain old phosphates, which encourage algae.

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When I started using the product, I asked about the phosphate issue and was told it didn't increase "orthophosphates" which is the form of phosphates that encourages algae growth. Do I understand you correctly that this is false? Does it matter if I use borax in my pool (50ppm)?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimK

Several years ago when having problems with stains, probably iron, I got rid of the stains using ascorbic acid (I forget the exact procedure) and started using Jack's Magic Purple Stuff to keep the stains from returning (initial dose of 2 qts, then 12 oz each week in my 20k gal vinyl IG pool). I've been using it for several years now and they stains have not returned.

Speaking of using HEDP sequestrants, I understand that chlorine breaks them down. Ben, does that mean that my regular addition of HEDP (I add 12oz of Purple Stuff each week per instructions) is increasing chlorine demand? I wondering if by using this product I'm shortening the life of my salt cell?

Something else I don't understand. I know the HEDP sequestrant keeps the metals in solution, but you mentioned that as it breaks down the metals will end up in the filter? The Purple Stuff I use claims it allows the filter to trap the metals so they won't stain the pool. Does this mean that is some indirect way the HEDP helps remove the metals via the filter?

BTW, I'm in the process of testing my pool for metals using your bucket technique you suggested. I'll let you know the results.

Thanks.

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After the first step (add 1/4 cup bleach to 4 gal of water, then wait 24hrs) of your suggested "bucket test", I don't see any staining or anything settling out in the white bucket. I added the washing soda today and will check on it tomorrow to see if anything shows up.

Is it possible that all these seasons of using the Purple Stuff (or my use of cal hypo to shock on a regular schedule?) has removed the metals from my pool? I find this puzzling as it seemed the source of iron was from the salt, which I still add (I go through about 150-200lbs per season on average). Any ideas?

Ugh.....it's giving me a headache trying to figure out exactly what I should be doing to prevent metal stains from returning without throwing away money on stuff I may not need.:confused: Don't know if this is possible without just experimenting and see what happens (I really don't want to have to clean a stained pool again!).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimK

When I started using the product, I asked about the phosphate issue and was told it didn't increase "orthophosphates" which is the form of phosphates that encourages algae growth. Do I understand you correctly that this is false?

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Well, I suppose it's not an outright lie -- when you pour it in, you are not increasing orthophosphates. But it eventually becomes orthophosphates, so it's effectively a lie . . . but then I guess that's what passes for "good marketing": lying effectively! ;)

I don't mind you mentioning poolgeeks, but I don't want them recommended. We are going to have to cobble out a policy on this, but I haven't had time yet. In general, I don't want to recommend companies that haven't been 'vetted' -- BBB checked, physical address checked, etc.

Also, I *prefer* to use Amazon, since I get a commission that helps support the forum (and me), all things being equal. By that I mean, if Amazon and PoolGeek have the same product for about (+/- 5%) the same price, I want to use an Amazon link rather than PoolGeek.

However, there's another issue. I already hate the Taylor guide that comes in the K2006 -- we end up 'solving' problems that that 'guide' creates. With Amazon, I don't have to worry about them giving bad advice, or telling folks dumb stuff we then have to go read, and come back and explain. With PoolGeek, we would have to do EXACTLY that: http://www.poolgeek.com/test/ As SOON as we started linking to them, we'd be answering questions, "Is that safe? PoolGeeks says 10 ppm is HIGH!" :mad: :mad:

Yeah, that's what we need. NOT!

I looked at their site -- it's very, very nice. Lots to learn about how to do better here. But, their pool info is the same old, same old that we fight year after year. And, after seeing that, I will say -- without ANY reservation or guilt -- that I do NOT want direct links or recommendations there, except as a last resort.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

Well, I suppose it's not an outright lie -- when you pour it in, you are not increasing orthophosphates. But it eventually becomes orthophosphates, so it's effectively a lie . . . but then I guess that's what passes for "good marketing": lying effectively! ;)

I don't mind you mentioning poolgeeks, but I don't want them recommended. We are going to have to cobble out a policy on this, but I haven't had time yet. In general, I don't want to recommend companies that haven't been 'vetted' -- BBB checked, physical address checked, etc.

Also, I *prefer* to use Amazon, since I get a commission that helps support the forum (and me), all things being equal. By that I mean, if Amazon and PoolGeek have the same product for about (+/- 5%) the same price, I want to use an Amazon link rather than PoolGeek.

However, there's another issue. I already hate the Taylor guide that comes in the K2006 -- we end up 'solving' problems that that 'guide' creates. With Amazon, I don't have to worry about them giving bad advice, or telling folks dumb stuff we then have to go read, and come back and explain. With PoolGeek, we would have to do EXACTLY that: http://www.poolgeek.com/test/ As SOON as we started linking to them, we'd be answering questions, "Is that safe? PoolGeeks says 10 ppm is HIGH!" :mad: :mad:

Yeah, that's what we need. NOT!

I looked at their site -- it's very, very nice. Lots to learn about how to do better here. But, their pool info is the same old, same old that we fight year after year. And, after seeing that, I will say -- without ANY reservation or guilt -- that I do NOT want direct links or recommendations there, except as a last resort.

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I understand. I've never asked for advice or guidance on pool care from them so I wasn't familiar with that aspect of their business. Taking a look at the test link you mentioned (it appears to be a new feature), I see and respect your point.