spring prep and a new pool owner

So glad I found the forums! Been reading like crazy today to learn how to get this chemistry thing down and since I haven't run across a question that is like what I have going on, I've got to bug you all.

We have an inground 10000 gal pool. Its 30 years old but the pool surface is really rough. The house belonged to my folks until late last year when we moved in just before Christmas. Pool maintenance was probably done very irregularly for the past couple of years. We are in central Texas....hot and sunny.

Before finding this site I purchased a Taylor 2005 kit, what can I add to it to make it equivalent to the suggested kits?

Anyway, we just added 3gal of bleach because the pool has some robust algae growth and I tested the rest of the chemicals;

FC ~20 it may be higher but i'm testing using the Taylor 2005 kit
Ph 7
Ph drop test 3
Alkalinity 115
Calcium 650 (we are on a well and have very hard water)
CYA 0

From reading other posts, I think i'm supposed to keep my fc levels above 15 until my algae is all gone, but since the sun is so bright here, should I be concerned about not having any cya to protect the chlorine levels?

Then after the algae is cleared up the raise the Ph with borax while I let the fc levels drop a bit.

Thoughts or suggestions on how i'm going about this?

Ah yes, the long-neglected pool battle. Been there myself. My pool was abandoned for at least 3-4 years before I bought the house, and I let it languish for several more years.

I'll save the mods the trouble: Get a Taylor 2006 test kit. Without it you are running blind. Imagine having thousands of dollars invested in something, now you need to invest $50-100 more for the proper test kit.

Find the area under user settings to change your signature and add your info because there are far too many people posting for the mods to keep up. It helps them have a quick glance of your pool type and size. Put the type (IG Gunite 18,000 gallons with X pump and X Filter). The important stuff is size, type like gunnite or vinyl, location, and filter type. DE Vs Sand etc.

You can buy a taylor made knock-off (everything but the DPD-FAS drop test) at wal mart and that will tell you your CYA. My bet is that it's '0'. I wasn't clear whether you used strips or the cloudy dot test in your first post. Don't use test strips, they aren't accurate and only give you mixed results. You need to get some CYA in the pool or else a good portion of your chlorine is not being used to kill algae and getting ate up by our blistering Texas sun.

Good luck, I'm just an amateur like you, but I have done everything from replacing the pump and filter to fixing the piping to the skimmers and installing a salt cell etc. I sincerely hope the mods don't mind me posting, but I have been in your shoes, and in some ways still am.

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Originally Posted by mogwai

Before finding this site I purchased a Taylor 2005 kit, what can I add to it to make it equivalent to the suggested kits?

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The test kit info page has a picture and a link to the kit on Amazon -- you're looking for a K-1515-A

As far as pH goes, it will probably rise on it's own, if you don't add more acid. I'd let it get to 7.2 - 7.4 before stopping it. If you add the bleach late in the day, and then brush . . . you won't have to worry too much about losing it during the day, since it will be mostly gone. Here's what I'd recommend:

1. Add 2 - 3 gallons of PLAIN 6% bleach each evening, and then BRUSH the pool -- chlorine doesn't penetrate the slime layers well; brushing exposes the algae to chlorine.
2. Add 1/2 gallon in the AM, just to keep the pool during the day.
3. Let the pH rise to 7.2 - 7.4, before adding more acid.
4. Run the pump and filter 24/7; clean as needed.
5. Continue this process till the algae is gone.
6. Probably the cheapest way to add stabilizer is to begin chlorinating with dichlor.

Dichlor @ Amazon:

Kem-Tek Dichlor 5lb => $20
Kem-Tek Dichlor 12lb => $49

The smaller container will add ~30 ppm of chlorine to your pool, and ~30 ppm of stabilizer. The larger container will add ~80 ppm of chlorine and ~70 ppm of stabilizer. Get the smaller one, if you are going to be using stabilized chlorine (trichlor); get the larger one if you are going to be using unstabilized chlorine (bleach, cal hypo, or a SWCG). You can buy dichlor locally, but you will have to shop VERY carefully to avoid the dichlor blends. Walmart, Lowes, and Kmart all sell blends (at least in my area) that you do NOT want. Home Depot, I'm not sure about. If you want to order it from Amazon, you should have it by the time you're ready to start stabilizing.

After you get the pool stabilized, you can use cal hypo to chlorinate AND lower your calcium hardness IF your filter is working well (what kind is it?) and IF you follow my instructions. It's also available on Amazon, fairly cheaply:

In the Swim 24 x 1lb cal hypo => $64

Let me know if you do want to do the cal hypo / calcium reduction thing - it's not hard, but you do have to follow very specific instructions. If you follow the instructions on the label, you will INCREASE your calcium level.

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Originally Posted by TheGoose

I'll save the mods the trouble: Get a Taylor 2006 test kit. Without it you are running blind. Imagine having thousands of dollars invested in something, now you need to invest $50-100 more for the proper test kit.

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Just FYI, the K2005 kit is the same basic kit as the K-2006, except that it uses DPD testing for chlorine, which won't measure chlorine levels as high as DPD-FAS will. Adding the K-1515 adds the DPD-FAS capability.

Janet

Thanks for the responses! I don't feel like i'm flying blind anymore.

I ordered the Taylor kit for FAS/DPD chlorine test. Should be here in a couple of days, but in the meantime i'm estimating the chlorine using the K2005's method for high chlorine levels...seems to be hovering around 15ppm or a bit higher. I'm trying to keep it there.

I have begun adding bleach at night, per your suggestions PoolDoc, and brushing it when I add it. There is still quite a bit of algae on the walls and some settling on the bottom of the pool. About how long will it take for the algae on the walls to die off assuming I continue to keep Chlorine high and brush it at least once a day? I'm just using a standard nylon brush...should I use something different to make sure i'm getting that layer of slime off? Is it okay to begin vacuuming the stuff off the bottom of the pool while i'm doing this super-chlorination process?

It's only been a couple of days but the water is pretty clear and the Ph is now 7.2.

Should I begin adding stabilizer now or should I wait until my algae problem clears up?

I will add my pool details later today (as many as I know :)), but I have a Haywood C1200 cartridge filter. We just replaced the cartridge on Saturday (i have no idea how old the prior one was, but it was falling apart).

My wife and I are considering adding a water softener to the water main so i'm not sure I need to do the cal reduction process until we make that decision. I definitely don't want to increase my calcium level so i'll reach out to you if I get to that point.

+ Dunno how long to clean / kill it all -- I've quit making predictions on that; too many variables! But, if the WATER is clear now, you should be able to get the pool all cleaned up in a week.

+ Nylon brush is fine; vacuuming the debris is fine AS LONG AS THE CHLORINE IS HIGH when you do it!

+ I'd recommend starting the stabilizer AFTER the algae is gone, but if you buy dichlor, you can begin chlorinating with dichlor now -- just don't over do it.

+ Hayward C1200 will work well up to 40 GPM / 19,000 gallons.

+ Some of the most common cartridges out there are well, sub-standard, and name games are being played -- notice the second "Unicel" cartridge is NOT a Unicel! I just wrote this up for another post:
Here are 4 links to Amazon for Jandy CL460 replacements:

Pleatco or Chinese?(DOUBTFUL) => 4 PACK - Jandy CL460 Quad Pack Cartridge Filter C-7468-4 @ Amazon
Pleatco (DOUBTFUL) => Unicel 4 PACK - Jandy CL460 Quad Pack Cartridge Filter C-7468-4 @ Amazon
Genuine Unicel (OK) => Unicel C-7468 Replacement Filter Cartridge for 115 Square Foot Jandy CL460 @ Amazon
Genuine Filbur (OK) => Filbur FC-0810 Antimicrobial Replacement Filter Cartridge for Jandy CL460 @ Amazon

Check out the pictures; if your cartridge doesn't have the pleat ties . . . you got one of the low grade cartridges. My understanding is that Unicel or Filbur are OK, and of course the Hayward OEM is fine. Pleatco or no-name or private label . . . not so much.

+ Don't plan on using your softener to fill the pool, unless you've talked to your water treatment guy about it. Have you ever worked with a softner before? You'll end up doing a LOT of regenerating that way!

Been a couple of days since i posted, but wanted to update. Thanks again for the help.

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

+ Dunno how long to clean / kill it all -- I've quit making predictions on that; too many variables! But, if the WATER is clear now, you should be able to get the pool all cleaned up in a week.

+ Nylon brush is fine; vacuuming the debris is fine AS LONG AS THE CHLORINE IS HIGH when you do it!

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Been brushing and keeping the chlorine above 15...this morning the water is super clear with some sediment at the bottom of the pool which i'll vacuum out tonight, but making great headway!

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

+ I'd recommend starting the stabilizer AFTER the algae is gone, but if you buy dichlor, you can begin chlorinating with dichlor now -- just don't over do it.

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I suspect i'll begin adding stabilizer this weekend but I absolutely forgot to order from Amazon. I have a Leslie Pools by me and I wonder if their Stabilizer will work. Because of our hard water I am leaning toward using unstabilized Chlorine but would appreciate feedback.

If the Leslie Pools stabilizer will work, are they any special instructions you suggest?

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

+ Hayward C1200 will work well up to 40 GPM / 19,000 gallons.

if your cartridge doesn't have the pleat ties . . . you got one of the low grade cartridges. My understanding is that Unicel or Filbur are OK, and of course the Hayward OEM is fine. Pleatco or no-name or private label . . . not so much.

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New filter has the pleats and pleat ties

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

+ Don't plan on using your softener to fill the pool, unless you've talked to your water treatment guy about it. Have you ever worked with a softner before? You'll end up doing a LOT of regenerating that way!

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Never worked with a softener before. The original reason for considering a softener was to help our washing machine and dishwasher...also the faucets. I have enough room in my well house and well filtration to run a faucet before the softener as we only wanted the softener for the main house. I would still have access to unsoftened water for the pool and the gardens.

I'll ask you about the CAL reduction process once I get the pool chemicals right in the next few days unless this is something I need to absolutely do while stabilizing the chemicals?

You can add stabilizer 3 ways:
1. Use a stabilized chlorine, like trichlor tabs or dichlor powder.
2. Use the liquid stabilizer -- 1/2 strength; 2x the price.
3. Use granular stabilizer BUT it's slow to dissolve so you MUST get your water clean first. Otherwise, you'll have to clean your filter and dump the stabilizer before it dissolves. You have to allow about 60 hours of circulation time to dissolve the granular stabilizer. If you have a pump timer, this can be 10 days!

Unstabilized chlorine has two practical forms: bleach, and cal hypo. Bleach is fine with hard water, but you'll have to tote a lot of bleach. Cal hypo will ADD hardness, if you use it according to the label instructions. There's a way to use it that will tend to REDUCE hardness, but it would be tricky with a cartridge filter.

What you might want to look at is getting a 50# container of diclor from Sams Club (NOT Costco!) for $105. At that price, it works out to be about $4.50/lb as 100% chlorine gas . . and about $5 lb as stabilizer. 6% bleach is costs about the same, on a 100% chlorine comparison, but does NOT include stabilizer. Dichlor is completely soluble, so you don't have to mess around trying to dissolve it on your filter.

You will have to switch to bleach or cal hypo at some point, because your stabilizer level will keep climbing. And, you'll need the K2006 testkit to manage both the hard water and the stabilizer / chlorine ratio.

Thanks Ben.

Im going to do exactly as you said. I'll pick up the dichlor from Sam's Club this morning and liquid bleach for when i need to switch. you also mentioned not overdoing the stabilizer so I'll be very careful.

I've got the Taylor K2005 test kit with the Taylor 1515 kit for DPD - FAS chlorine test on order.

I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.

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Originally Posted by mogwai

you also mentioned not overdoing the stabilizer so I'll be very careful.

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Just to let you know . . . there's a little bit of, well, not controversy exactly, but maybe, lack of synchronization here at PoolForum about what stabilizer levels ought to be. The instinct most experienced PoolForum members, contributors, and even moderators have is . . . get it down, if your CYA level gets near 100 ppm.

That's my fault, in large degree.

Years ago, when I began to understand the relationship between chlorine and CYA levels, the first conclusion I reached was that people needed to get their levels down, so their chlorine could be effective. When I first published the Best Guess chart around 2002, that opened up a way to function effectively even if they couldn't drain - IF they had a DPD-FAS kit and could test. But, until Richard (Chem_Geek) worked out all the analytical machinery that validated my "best guess", I didn't depend on it 100%: it WAS a guess!

And, it's only been in the last 18 - 24 months, that several other bits of analytical and historical data dropped into place, and got synched up in my thinking. The result is, some of the advice that I personally am NOW giving about CYA and chlorine levels is not the same as the advice I gave 6 years ago. But, most of the stuff written down, both here and at Trouble Free Pools is really more of the 6 year old stuff.

So . . . when you report back that your CYA level has reached 80 ppm, and you ask what you should do next, don't be surprised if some of the experienced people here tell you, "You need to drain some water, and lower that CYA level". But, that won't be what I'll tell you! What I'll say is, "Draining is an option . . . or you could just raise your chlorine level a little more, to compensate!".

Thanks for that Ben. Im still a little confused about lots of things but Im getting there. With the recommended stabilizer from Sam'S Club and my chlorine level is hovering at 7 ppm it seems the next few days will be a bit of an iterative process to get the chlorine levels down a bit while increasing the cya presence.

Unless Im mistaken it looks like my target is around 50 ppm of stabilize. An idea on what type of CYA increase an initial 4oz treatment i can expect?

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Originally Posted by mogwai

An idea on what type of CYA increase an initial 4oz treatment i can expect?

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I think you are asking how much a 4 oz. addition of cyanuric acid will add to your pool's CYA reading? If that is correct, then the answer is about 3.5ppm.