Printable View
I have an 18 x 36 in ground pool and I,have been on Caribbean clear copper system for about 4 years.My question is what do you think about the copper system.and how easy would it be too change to your bbb method. and why would I need to change or should I stay on copper.
In one sense, the REAL question is, What do YOU think about the copper system?
Systems like yours:
1. Normally cause some staining (blue / green => copper; black -> maybe, copper; gray -> silver.
2. Cause blond -- and sometimes, white -- hair to turn green
3. Kill algae, and inhibit bacteria, BUT
4. Do NOT kill bacteria quickly, or viruses, at all.
5. Can't oxidize people goo, so you have to use chlorine, peroxide, monopersulfate, or something else to do that.
On a pool like yours, with the BBB method, you should be spending lest than $250 per season and less than 1 hour per week on chemistry. If you're spending more time or money than that now, you might want to change. However, the Cu/Ag systems ARE better when you go on vacation, than chlorine. You have to have help, or a careful plan, to avoid a green pool on return with chlorine alone.
Also, because Cu/Ag pools are not sanitized -- they have no virus killing residual, and only a very S-L--O--W bacterial kill rate -- they are not safe for swimming with non-family members . . . or even with some family members!
But, if you've already used it for 4 years, I'm guessing the problems don't bother you? If you just want to get a better handle on your pool, the first place to start with is with correct test kits -- see the test kit info page. Even if you don't switch, you can use the info here to improve your operations.
As Ben noted, copper and silver ions are not oxidizers so you are basically swimming in your own sweat and urine that builds up over time. Note that the NSF Standard 50 certification for Carribean Clear explicitly states the following:
You MUST use either chlorine or bromine with such a system in order to be in compliance with the certification. That is because NSF Standard 50 requires that an EPA-registered disinfectant be used that passes DIS/TSS-12.Quote:
[1] Copper and silver ion generators are exempt from the Annex H supplemental disinfection
efficacy test which does not address the specific operation of these products. NSF
Listed Ion Generators must be operated with a minimum 0.4 ppm chlorine or 0.8 ppm
bromine. Additional levels of EPA registered disinfecting chemicals may be required by
the regulatory agency having authority.
[2] "Chlorine-Free" logo only applicable when unit used with bromine or bromine compounds
that do not contain chlorine.
Chem_Geek means that "MUST" as in, the pool mavens will shake a finger at you, if you don't. Thank God, there are no residential pool inspectors in the USA -- at least once the pool is done.Quote:
Originally Posted by chem geek
You are free to swim in sweat, urine, and even poop to your heart's content, so long as you health holds out. Just don't ask me to get in with you! We try help people here make informed choices, but I believe it should still be THEIR choice, at least for themselves and their family, no matter how, uhm, 'poor' a choice it is. In fact, if you want a genuinely "natural" pool, that's fine too: I even have a photo gallery of them here! Some of them are extremely attractive, if not completely sanitary.
On the other hand, if Caribbean Clear starts claim to provide chlorine free sanitation (as they did some years ago), Chem_Geek or I or someone else is likely to report them. And the penalties for that, are real.
thanks for your help. I look at the Taylor K-2005 and K-2006 test kit is it the same as blue devil kit because that's what I have . and where do I start on giving up my copper system . Do I try to remove all of the metal . because like you said the real question is I'am not happy with the results.and one more thing last year before I closed my pool I noticed an big rusty stain in the bottom. thanks again for all your help.
Hi Satt;
If you're not happy with it, then that's different. We need to work out a way to transition without making a mess, and without having your pool go through an unusable period. Since you have stains, we need to shift your pool into a stain-lifting mode, and then after we get the metal into solution (in the pool water), we take it all back out, but on the filter and not the sides of your pool. I think we can help you do this, and it won't be terribly hard or expensive, but it will require some attention to detail.
1. Go ahead and get the K2006. It is NOT the same, and you will need it. It's also NOT the same as the K2005, which is NOT what you need.
2. Tell me what tests you have in the BlueDevil -- we may be able to use it for some things. Is the chlorine test DPD (turns red) or OTO (turns yellow). We can use the OTO.
3. Make a list of chemicals you have -- if we can use any of them, let's do that, rather than buying new. (Also, it's usually the best way to dispose of them.) But, I need EXACT mfg and label names, and also any chemical ingredients listed.
4. Tell me what kind, and size of filter you have, and whether you normally use a time clock or run 24/7.
5. Does your pool have a deep end? How deep? (We need to calculate gallons.)
6. Are you swimming yet? If not, when do you want to start?
7. Do you have ANY equipment besides the pump, filter, and copper unit? If so, what?
8. What surface do you have in your pool - vinyl, fiberglass, plaster, Diamond brite, etc?
surface is vinyl , about 9ft deep so 25000 to 26000 gallons, an I run 24/7 with 300lb sandfilter,I'will give you a list of chemical later when I got home. later today,and I'have not turn on my copper system on , do I need to unwire it ? I do have a automacttic poolcleaner . I plan on swimming around mid may or 1st of june. and the water is just now milky but it was green becouse we had an warmer winter. thanks again for all your help.
Ben, Blue Devil has several kits, both OTO and DPD.
My blue devil is an oto kit , ph 7.2-7.4 , chlorine 5 or higher because that as high my test kit goes , ta 120 , cya 0 , calcium 160 , free chlorine unknow , list of chemicals I have are 4 - 1 lb of shock ( calcium hypochlorite ) 67% , 1 - bucket of 3" tablets ( trichloroethane- s- triazine , 5 lbs Bulk Ascorbic Acid Powder that I was going to use to help remove tha stain. Thanks for your help
[PoolDoc edit --
removed double post: -- your EcoSmarte defense is where it belongs, in the China Shop
Please keep further posts on that topic there. ]
ernieb
So is this similar to my Floatron? I used far less chlorine than we expected to the first two years and to us this was fabulous because it was less cost. Plus we have kiddos so we thought less chlorine meant safer water. What your saying in less chlorine is not safer. How come the water stayed so crystal clear the first two years? Because it was a brand new pool and the copper built up over the two years? And b/c it was such a warm winter? Just trying to wrap my head around the science of it.
Same chemistry; different mechanism.Quote:
Originally Posted by cjblanton07
Copper WILL save chemical costs for pool owners that haven't learned to maintain stable chlorine levels. Algae is the #2 chlorine consumer (next to sunlight) in outdoor pools. Copper is not affected by sunlight, so it doesn't disappear on you the same way chlorine can.
I have no problem with folks using copper if
(a) they understand it's not a sanitizer, and won't make their pool safe to swim;
(b) they understand the stains and green hair problem, and don't mind;
(c) they have some reliable mechanism for managing their chlorine levels.
The problem we have here is that many units (like Nature2 or the Frog) may add copper . . . or they may not. So they are inherently unreliable. Also, systems that do work to add copper are often sold as "chlorine free" . . . and as noted, "chlorine-free" = "unsanitary", with the PHMB (Baquacil) systems being the only (sorta) exception. For us, it's easier to tell people, "Just say no", than to explain, and then help them manage the intricacies of a copper system.
The manufacturers don't do this, because they get better press and better 'testimonials' by running copper alone. Lightly loaded pools treated with copper CAN remain pretty clear. But, copper and chlorine are an uneasy mix, and most pool owners don't know that their pool is unsanitary, so they don't care. When they get sick, with poop to mouth (fecal-oral) diseases, like 'dire-rear' and other GI infections, they don't know that these are commonly transmitted in pools . . . and don't WANT to know that that's how they got sick!
Grossed out yet? I can keep going!
Unfortunately understanding pool sanitation involves knowing all sorts of things many people -- other than 13 year old boys -- would rather not know. (There was even a scientific study on the average amount of fecal material added to a pool by the average adult swimmer! I've talked to the guy that did the study, at U Az Tucson)