Questions on changing to a 2 speed motor on a Hayward Super II pump

I am considering changing out the 2 Hp AO Smith motor( SF=1) on my Hayward Super II pool pump. The pool is in St. Augustine Fl and is not screened in. We have four large Live Oaks that surround it and this time of year it is a full time job just to keep the water a pleasant shade of brown or green from all the leaves, pollen, and calkings from the trees. I'm usually running the pump 18-24 hours a day for a month and the electric consumption is out of hand. In the summer I run it about 8 hours a day and 4 hours a day in the winter. I was hoping it would be more efficient to use a two speed pump on low 24/7 this time of year. The filter is a Hayward c1200 cartridge (120sq ft ?) I feel this pool is over pumped and underfiltered. The pool is 22900 gallons with a qwik clean II in floor cleaning system which does little with all the tree debris, also there is a spa that is approx 3-4' above the pool and a heat pump. At present the heat pump is broke and will not be replaced, and the spa isn't used. One other strange thing about this set up is that if I try to isolate either the main drains or the skimmer on the three way valve on the return, the pump will get air in the basket, but it does not as long as I have the valve set to both the main drains and the skimmer. The bubbles almost seem like cavitation from too much suction.

There is also a SWG (Jandy Aquapure) that is split off the main return on a separate 1 1/2" line that has it's return in the bottom of the skimmer housing with a reduction nozzle at the return in the skimmer so that it comes out as a strong stream. The return lines for the skimmer and drains are 2" and the equipment is about 45' from the pool at close to pool water level or a bit lower.

My question is, could I replace the 2 hp motor with a 2 sp 1 1/2 hp motor? I believe I read that I'd also have to replace the impeller if I downsized. Would I gain much electrical savings by down sizing the pump motor to justify the added expense of a new impeller and possibly diffuser? Or, would I be better off just getting a 2 sp 2hp motor? I'm also wondering how the SWG would fair on low speed especially since it is split off on it's own line from the main return.

Sorry for the long post. Thanks for any input on this problem you folks can give me. I've got pictures I can post of the set up but can't figure out how.

Thanks, Kevin

Hi Kevin,

If you'll email your pics to poolforum@gmail.com, Ben can post them up for you. I can't answer your pump questions, but I know there are others here who can--just give it a few days because the traffic is just beginning to pick up around here. I'm sure Ben, Poconos, Waste, Mark, and some of the other equipment gurus around here will be by soon!

thanks, I'll do that.

WIth both a in-floor system and a spa, reducing the HP of the pump would reduce the performance of both. So unless you are willing to give those up entirely, I would keep the same size pump. Anyway most of your energy savings will come running on low speed so downsizing the pump isn't nearly as important as the low speed. Low speed will save about 50% in energy while each 1/2 HP drop in pump size will save about 10% more including turnover changes. Doing both will save more but again, you will sacrifice the spa and in-floor.

Also, the SWG should work fine on low speed of any size pump.

Overall layout:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-X...70%2520web.jpg


Valves in train-wreck orientation!
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_...%2520valve.jpg



Dangerous wiring:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-d...2520wiring.jpg



Hayward cartridge filter:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v...2520detail.jpg



Collapsed filter cartridge:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-R...2520detail.jpg



Step-down to 1.5"??
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-I...2520detail.jpg

OK. Here's stuff I've noticed so far.

1. Cartridge filters are seriously over-rated in residential applications. There's nothing magical about a residential pool that suddenly transforms a 45gpm (0.375 gpm/sft) commercial filter into a 120 gpm residential filter. Your filter cartridge is shot . . . and shows the pleat collapse typical of excessive flow and pressure.


2. Your pump was probably sized to run the in-floor cleaners and span. In-floor cleaning systems require large overpressure value to operate, and consequently are MASSIVELY inefficient. They cost 10,000's of pool owners $100's or even $1,000's annual in excess electrical costs.


3. Your piping is a typical pool guy hydraulic mess! I spent a couple of hours on the phone today, trying to get through to the Pentair engineers. I failed, but did confirm from the tech support guys that putting a 3-way valve in train-wreck orientation (water entering from BOTH sides of the T, and leaving via the side outlet) is a SERIOUS piping error. These guys assume -- they don't have much field experience -- that no one would be so dumb as to pipe a pool that way!

And, because it's assumed no one would install a 3-way valve in such a brain-dead configuration, none of the companies with 3-way valves have published head loss curves for their valves in that configuration!

Your piping has, not one, but TWO train-wrecked 3-way valves. If the spa is off, only one train-wreck (the skimmer + main drain) valve is 'live', but there's no way you can feed a 2HP Hayward Super II that way, and not have suction problems.


4. I can't make out exactly what's happening behind the filter -- I assume that's where the piping is looped to the heat pump? Regardless, I'd need a picture looking DOWN behind the filter, and another looking down on the return (pressure) side automatic valve, to work out what's going on.


5. If you were to
+ take the spa and the floor inlets out of the picture entirely,
(water can flow out of the floor inlets, but any restricters would need to be removed, and the cleaning heads would NOT actuate.)
+ replace the C1200 cartridge,
+ repipe the SWCG to straight flow through for ONE of the returns

THEN you could
+ replace your motor with a 1HP 2speed motor, like the AO Smith B975 motor on this page:

http://www.a1poolparts.com/-strse-Mo...Categories.bok

+ replace your pump seal, and impeller with the correct seal and a 1 HP impeller
+ install a 1HP motor rated DPDT toggle switch on the wall behind the pump

AND THEN
+ run the pump on low most of the time, probably with the MD closed, and the skimmer open.

Instead of running a 2 HP load, you'll would be running a 0.2HP load, with 30% or more of your original circulation. With your cartridge clean, and your piping fixed up, you are likely to get near the optimal filter rate for that C1200 (about 40 GPM), but for 10% of your original electrical costs.

The Hayward filter is very undersized for this pool (and I have a guess as to who the builder might be since I have seen several pools that have been undersized on this filter). I suspect that the filter requires cleaning every week or so. particularly with the seasonal pollen problem here and the oaks. A pressure side cleaner or a robot would do a better job of keeping this pool clean than an in floor system. They ar basically worthless for the type of stuff falling into this pool!

The two speed pump would be an excellent idea and keep it 2 hp since you probably need that for the spa jets but I would also consider upgrading the filter to something larger such a a Pentair clean and clear plus for a pool that size.

Kevin;

After reading over Waterbear's post, I realized you need to make some decisions, and let us respond to them:

1. Will the heat pump ever be brought back online? (If not, it would be best to delete that piping.)

2. Will you ever use the spa? (If not, you need to be able to fill and drain the spa, for cleaning purposes, but you do not need to size the pump to service the spa.)

3. Will you ever try to use the in-floor cleaning again? (My guess is, on this score, you should not: they don't ever seem to work very well, they are energy -- and thus, electricity HOGS -- and with leaf and grass debris they seem less effective than with dirt and dust. Again, you do not have to size for them, if you are permanently abandoning them.)

If you are abandoning the heat pump, the spa and the in-floor system, you don't need the 2HP pump. If you want to keep either the spa or in-floor system, you probably do. With the heat pump, if you want to keep it, you may need to convert the piping from side stream to full flow, if you use a 1HP pump.

If you want to abandon it all, for now, but retain the ability to crank it up later, you might want to look at a Pentair Intelliflo, which is a 2HP Whisperflo pump that has fully variable speeds. It won't be quite as efficient as a 1HP Whisperflo, but it will probably be as efficient as a 1HP Super II . . . and you won't have to install a timer, since that's built in.

The down side, of course, is that it is expensive. And, you should repipe so that you can get it up off the ground -- it will last much longer that way.

Just to clarify, I am in St. Augustine also so I am very familiar wit the conditions and problems here. When the pollen is bad everyone seems to think they have mustard algae and uncovered pools get a lot of debris that in floor systems just can't keep up with, suction side cleaners tend to choke on, but pressure side cleaners and robots do a better job with.

Thanks, Waterbear.

It's not often the PoolForum can help offer LOCAL help and knowledge!

OK, I'm still working on this issue and cleaning up the pool. I'll be posting a question on Cl levels in the Chemistry area. For now I have a question on various 2 sp motors. I found some on line that seem reasonably priced and have a digital controller mounted on the motors. I'm curious if anyone is familiar with these. They seem priced better than many 2 speed motors I've seen. Depending on what I decide on changing my set up I"d either get the 2hp or 1hp unit. http://www.americanbestpoolsupply.co...t/961/1089.htm

Concerning my system my two thoughts at this point are:

As Ben suggested eliminate the floor system and heat pump and go with a 1 hp 2sp pump +/- larger filter. I"d need an idea of how to replumb this set up more efficiently concerning the valve problems noted and the SWG entering the skimmer base. Also how to go about deactivating the floor returns on the cleaning system. I'm assuming that all of them would then work passively rather than being zoned and water gear controlled.

The other scenario would be to keep the floor system and eliminate the heater with the idea that maybe another one would be plumbed in for the spa at a future time. Then I'd go with a 2 hp 2sp motor. A larger filter and suggestions on cleaning up the plumbing mess I have going on.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated let me know if you need more info to help. Also if you can point me into how to figure out the energy cost savings for either system vs what's going on now.

Thanks, Kevin

I can't comment too much on US Motors other than most of the OEM pump motors are A.O. Smith if that tells you anything. But usually motors are cheaper for a reason.

However, can I add another option? Because of the spa and in-floor features, have you considered a variable speed pump. This would give you the most flexibility in setting the optimal flow rate for any condition and it may even make your in-floor system work better if you choose to use it. While more expensive up front, the energy saved with this kind of pump will pay for itself over the life of the pump. You can check with your power company to see if they are offering any rebates to help offset the cost. Also, one thing you did not mention was the possiblity of a solar system. If that is added to the equation, then a VS would really benefit you.

Thanks Mark, yeah if cost wan't a factor, I'd like the Pentair Intelliflo, replumb and be done with it, but I'm trying not to spend 900-1000 on a new pump, that's why the US motors unit is appealing as a retrofit, especially since all the timer controls are integrated on the pump and you wouldn't need to get a switch or new timer. FPL is also not offering any rebates for vs pumps when I last checked. The replumbing for better efficiency would also help. The vs is not out of the question though. My one worry with them is from what I've read, if the electonics go, there no replacement modules available even though they are listed on parts lists and you have to replace the whole pump. With the electric storms we have here, it makes me nervous. Solar is out since we live in an Oak Hammock and have not enough sun to support one, along with a northern roof exposure where it would need to go.

OK, I'm getting closer to doing something about my plumbing and pump. I have a chance to pick up a used filter in good shape it' roughly 3X the filter area. The filter is a Model CL 340 by Jandy Any feed back on this model and brand? Soon I'll post on the direction I want to go on the pump and be asking for some design advice.

I'm ready to replace my pump/motor and install the Jandy cl 340 filter that I picked up and have some questions before making the final pump and plumbing decision. iji

Here's what I've come up with so far. Some the heads on the in floor cleaning are starting to fall apart and I can't see that it does much anyway with the load of tree debris my pool gets. So, I'm thinking to remove one or two heads from each zone in the bottom cleaning system. This will allow it to cycle with a much lower head loss I hope and also allow the elevated spa to get circulation. I'm taking the heat pump out for now but may replace it at some point in the future. Spa jet pressure isn't a big issue for me, I'm more concerned with warm water when I decide to use it again. So, with opening up the floor cleaning system, I'm thinking of getting a two speed 1 1/2 hp motor and installing it in the super pump II along with the proper impeller. There is still a slight chance of using a VS motor but I'm having a tough time justifying the expense and payback period with elect rates of 0.12/kwh in NE florida. I'm hoping the 1 1/2 hp might let me vacuum with skimmer line only open since at present I have to have the main drain open so that I don't get bubbles in the skimmer as I do with the 2 hp. I think it overpowers the lines and draw it through the skimmer gasket seal no matter how tight it is or else there is some cavitation going on.

Ben had mentioned cleaning up the plumbing, so since I have to cut lines to put in the new (to me) filter and work on the pump. Can anyone give me some ideas on what I might do in that respect. I'm considering leaving a 3 way valve in the return from the filter in case I decided to put a heater back on line, does that make sense or would I be better off just leaving room to splice in a heater in the future. The SWG would be hard to put on another line since the other return goes to the geared distributor for the in ground cleaning. Though I suppose it could be put in that line and just go through all the zones as they open. As to the "train wreck" valve orientation on the suction side. Jandy's manual for the cl 340 show's valves in the same configuration and I've seen the same on other manufactures web sites, so I'm confused as to try to correct that or leave as is.

Any suggestions would be helpful before I start hacking away. Oh, I'll also be raising the pump off the ground level.

Kevin,

Here's the link to your photo album at PoolForum. Given the questions you're asking, you might want to take some pictures of the pool and span, as well as the QuicClean controller AND an overall shot of the equipment, and let me add them to the album.

The benefit -- in a situation like yours -- of a VFD pump is that it can be 'tuned' to your pool, without having to 'design and select' it to fit. With a 2-speed, the situation is reversed: to be sure it will work well, it DOES have to be 'designed (selected)' to fit. And there are too many loose ends, with your plumbing, for me to even try.

I also don't understand why you'd remove some, but not all cleaning heads. Does your controller rotate from head to head? Or, are there groups of them clustered? If you remove a head from a group, I believe that it's likely that that group will no longer clean.

Ben, yeah, I gets it makes more sense just to unscrew all the the head and let them free flow through the zones. It should make for a heck of a waterfall out of the spa for that zone. The ones on the steps and spill out for the spa would be left intact so I don't have a geyser situation.

I'll get some pics of the whole shebang and send them to you.

I'm just trying to improve the situation as inexpensively as possible and hopefully make pool maintenance life easier. Yes, "inexpensive" and pool is kind of an oxymoron.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by keastman

I'm just trying to improve the situation as inexpensively as possible and hopefully make pool maintenance life easier. Yes, "inexpensive" and pool is kind of an oxymoron.

---

In ground pools aren't cheap.

That's one reason I like the Intex pools so much: they ARE cheap, and still are pretty functional pools that allow a LOT of people to enjoy a real pools, who otherwise couldn't do so.

Not True!
Intex pools are "Gateway" pools that drag unsuspecting homeowners bit by bit into the debauched life of pool owners. My first Intex was $70 at Toys R Us, within the first year I bought a $300 cleaning robot, the next year it was a $250 pool with a $150 filter/pump and a half ton of sand and a week of landscaping. A year or two after that I had to get a "real pool", then Solar heat then new pump then...

But really, I couldn't be happier. The joy my family's had in the big blue bags of water through the 12 x24 AG oval we have now (and the somewhat larger IG we'd love to build soon) has been worth every penny and every minute. The experience of each step has made it easy for me to commit to the next with confidence (mostly because of this forum).

I do remember a time when Ben was very uncomfortable with us Blue Bag types with our low budgets and bad filtration. However, the simple truth behind the pool care methods described here brought us along despite Ben's reservations.

Sorry for the off topic ?rant?

Ben, I got the pics you wanted and sent them

Anyone have any suggestions on where to go on this?

I've got another pump motor question. My Super Pump II has a 2 hp motor with a sf of 1. I've found a 2 speed 1 1/2 hp motor with a sf of 1.3. If I calculated correctly that's a hp of 1.95. Would that be a near equivalent of my present 2 hp motor, or am I not understanding the sf comparison?

Are these they?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v...2520detail.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-d...2520wiring.jpg

So far, this is merely a reference post. I'm asking Mark and Al to take a look.

EB2982T prices
http://www.americanbestpoolsupply.com/detail/129176.htm
http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/pools...ts/EB2982T.htm


http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/blog/...pump_motor.htm

https://www.google.com/search?q=EB2982T

Motion Industries Item page

http://www.usmotors.com/Our-Products/Pool-Spa.aspx

2EZ install manual

http://www.usmotors.com/Our-Products...2EZ_Speed.ashx

Ben, those are pictures I sent you a while back, but I sent the ones you requested of the pool, spa, and quick clean controller a couple of days ago. I can resend them if they didn't make it. Thanks, Kevin

That is why it is always a good idea to reference the url of the thread so the pics get matched up with the right thread. Hopefully, he'll find the new ones you sent and get them posted for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by keastman

I've got another pump motor question. My Super Pump II has a 2 hp motor with a sf of 1. I've found a 2 speed 1 1/2 hp motor with a sf of 1.3. If I calculated correctly that's a hp of 1.95. Would that be a near equivalent of my present 2 hp motor, or am I not understanding the sf comparison?

---

Yes, it is pretty close and would probably work ok since it is so close. One thing to look at is the max amps rating of both motors to see if that is close as well. Manufactures build in some margin into the label ratings so there is a little bit of head room but you don't want to push that too far or the motor will overheat. You would be better off getting a motor that is slightly too large than one that is too small.

As for the two speed motors with timer, personally, I would not think the timer on the motor would be all that convenient but that is your choice. But my biggest concern would be reliability. Emerson was not known for producing high quality motors and their motors usually end up on low end pumps. But it is a great price and it might be worth the risk.

One more link to read:

http://www.usmotors.com/Our-Products...ECALL0001.ashx

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mas985

As for the two speed motors with timer, personally, I would not think the timer on the motor would be all that convenient but that is your choice. But my biggest concern would be reliability.

---

I wasn't thinking convenience; I was thinking cost. Instead of a $500 motor + a $150 timer, the Emerson motor was just $275 -- less than 1/2 the cost for the same function.

I didn't know about the reliability problem -- I've only dealt with a few Emerson motors, and didn't have problems with those. If you have more info on that issue, could you email it to me? (I don't want to hijack this thread.)

I might be the guinea pig for the site and go with the 2EZ motor. I'll just need to make sure it's not old stock from the recall period. At sub $300 it will be a bargain if it works out, if not, I'll wish I invested in an AO Smith, or a new two speed Whisperflo, or Intelliflo pump. Time will tell I guess, I'll keep ya'll posted how it works out if I go that way. I'm a bit hesitant on the electronic controlled timer on the pump with all or our lightning here, but I put a surge protector in my pool panel. I don't know if it's coincidence or not, but I haven't lost any components of my SWG since it's been installed and I used to loose some part yearly before I installed the surge protector. I do like the timer on the EZ pump because it has freeze protection and we get 5 or so freezing night each winter in NE FLA and sometimes I forget to run out and turn the pump on overnight, or don't even know it's supposed to freeze. Not having the expense of buying another timer and time spent wiring it will also be a plus. Hopefully running that pump on low most of the time and adding the 340sq ft filter I picked up will help keep the water cleaner. I think the 2 hp motor I have now is blowing a lot of fine stuff through the 120 sq ft one I have.

Now I just need to figure out a good plumbing plan to clean up the octopus system that I have now when I put the filter on line.

Thanks for the input and any other advice.

Call and ask, but it LOOKS like that if the electronic timer fries, the motor may live. And, if it does, you can bypass the on-pump timer with an external timer.

Kevin,

My apologies, but the pictures you sent came in differently, and weren't caught by my filters.

I've got them loaded: where do you want them?

Meanwhile, I noticed a problem. I grabbed this detail from one of the pictures:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-C...3%2520cart.jpg

That is almost certainly NOT a Hayward OEM, and not a Unicel or Filbur aftermarket. I'm running into info that Chinese and other low-grade carts are coming into the US market in very deceptive ways. For example, this IS a genuine Unicel: Unicel C-8412 Replacement Cartridge for 120sft Hayward CX1200RE @ Amazon

But this: Hayward Replacement Cartridge Element @ Amazon is almost certainly NOT a Hayward OEM . . . even though it's cataloged by Amazon as being one.

And this one: Pool Filter Replaces Unicel C-8412 (Pleatco PA120, Filbur FC-1293) @ Amazon is not even close!

In your photo, the replacement has no bands -- this almost certainly marks it as a VERY low grade replacement, not even up to Pleatco's standards. That may explain a lot of the difficulty you are having clearing your water!

Ben, I'm not sure which filter that is, I have two, I switch them out, They both used to have bands around them but they've been blown out for the last year or so and I removed the shreds that were left. One was from the local Ace Hardware store that has a pool center, the other one is one the previous home owner's pool service installed. I'll have to look at them tomorrow and see. I've not bothered to get new ones since I've known I was going to put larger filter in at some point in the near future. Now I'm ready.

I sent the pictures of the pool and spa because you requested them a couple of posts ago to help determine what I might do about the pump and plumbing. I guess you can post them as you see fit or put them with my others that you had the link for.

Thanks, Kevin

Oops. Sorry. Got threads confused -- I'm dealing with 3 similar threads!

Lemme reset. OK, re-read you thread to make sure I knew where I was.

If you want to simply put your pool on hold, till you get all new gear, we can help you do that.

BUT, if you want to USE your pool before then, do this:
1. Get a new Unicel cartridge, but do NOT install it.
2. Pipe a bypass around your filter, and put a 1/2lb spring check on the filter line, and a 5lb spring check + a valve on the bypass line
3. Then, install the Unicel. That way, your bypass line will move excess flow AROUND the filter, when it gets dirty, so you won't destroy the cartridge.

Surprisingly, Amazon has US made cheap calibrated check valves you can use. I'll post the links if you want to pursue this.

Thanks for the bypass info Ben, I've already picked up a used Jandy cl-320 cart filter to replace mine with, I"m just gong to make a final decision on ordering a new motor, or new pump and get to work plumbing it all in. The pool is functioning as is and will do OK until I can set aside a day to install the filter and motor or new pump.