Need help with algue in a oxygen pool

Hi,

First let me Introduce myself My name is Amanda and I have a Pool construction, repairs and maintenance company here is southern spain.

My problem is I seem to have a ongoing problem with algue in a indoor pool, the pool was orginally chlorine then the client requested we change it to oxygen as she found the chlorine was irratiting her skin. As the pool had a problem with green algue (slimy but only in the grout) and the fact it never gets fresh water as is topped up from a built in water hold we decided it would be best to empty, clean and refill then add the oxygen.

However now 2 months on although not bad at the min, the grout problem seems to be returning all Chemical levels are within good paramiters apart from Alkalinity and I use the Palintest photometer so feel sure my levels are right.

Any help would be great.
Amanda

Hi Amanda;

It may be an vocabulary problem . . . but I don't know what you mean by "oxygen". If you mean, simply O2 -- diatomic oxygen -- it's not a sanitizer or an algaecide. If you mean ozone -- O3 -- it is an effective oxidizer and sanitizer, but an ineffective algaecide.

I'm familiar with the Palintest products from 15 years ago, but not their current product line. Are you testing with tablets added to pool water samples? If so, those results are meaningful. But, if they've come out with test strips, then you'll need another testing method before we can make any judgements.

Also, I don't know what products you have available in Spain. The Buckman polyquat product line would probably be effective, and functional in an ozonated pool, but I don't know if that's available there, since Buckman is a fairly small US company, and they still have a patent. (The patent on the product expired, but they have had an unexpired patent on a feed stock component.) You could use what are called linear quaternary ammonia compounds, but they tend to make the water foamy, and can be quite irritating.

If you can tell us what you are currently using in the pool (besides "oxygen") and what you have available, we might be able to offer some advice. But you'll need to use chemical names, rather than brand or product names. Even US based companies tend to change product names on a country by country basis.

The chlorine may have been irritating her skin because you may have been using unstabilized chlorine (sodium hypochlorite or Cal-Hypo) without any Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in the water, possibly because you thought that as an indoor pool it didn't need any CYA. However, without CYA in the water, the active chlorine level will be much higher. Even 1-2 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) with no CYA is 10-20 times more powerful and potentially irritating than 3 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA where this latter amount is more than sufficient to prevent algae growth.

The Palintest SP 315C has the same tests as the Taylor K-2005 except possibly no acid/base demand test and is a decent alternative for those who can't get Taylor kits overseas. It uses tablets for most tests, but uses DPD for FC and CC and tests for TA and CH via count the drop tests (I think) and tests for CYA with a turbidimetric test. However, Amanda mentioned a "photometer" so this sounds completely colorimetric for all tests (well, still turbidimetric for CYA). I'm sure waterbear is familiar with these.

Richard,

I think I understand your reasoning on this . . . and it's reasonable. But I'm just not sure it's completely correct, for the simple reason that my experience, and that of my sons and my wife, in indoor pools with varying levels of chlorine (0.5 - 30 ppm) with ZERO stabilizer, is not completely consistent with your theory.

Put simply, our experience is that chlorine with minimal organics (fewer swimmers per gallon, no lotion, + 80 F.) is not very irritating, even at levels high enough to turn hair from brown to ash colored. It DOES dry the skin. But with high organic &/or nitrogen loads (lots of swimmers, pee, sweat, & lotion + 87 F.), even low levels are irritating (dry skin + itch + red rash). And the particular pool my wife worked in for 10 years remained irritating. I even tried using 10 ppm of CYA once -- probably 15 years ago, now. My sons were mostly in large pools with few swimmers. My wife was in a small pool with many swimmers, and had to coat her skin with lotion before entering to keep the problems manageable.

So, while your explanation is both plausible and reasonable, it's not completely consistent with our experience. Unfortunately, careful confirmatory research on this topic would be really, really hard.

Higher bather load pools, such as commercial/public pools, are a different animal. In those, one can have many more intermediate chlorinated by-products and some of these may be irritating. For Amanda's customer, it sounds more like a residential pool and at typical low bather load the chlorine itself *might* be irritating, depending on its level, but for most people it is not. Most tap water is chlorinated, so if this customer showers or takes baths and doesn't get irritation then they might not actually have a problem with chlorine (unless the tap water is chloraminated, which is monochloramine).

I just know that my wife hates swimming in our community center indoor pool over the winter because her swimsuits only last one season (elasticity gets shot) and her skin gets flakier and hair frizzier (though she never complained of irritation). In our own pool during the summer, none of these problems occur and her swim suits last for many years. The main difference is that the indoor pool has 1-2 ppm FC (sometimes more) with no CYA while our outdoor pool has 3-6 ppm FC with 40 ppm CYA which has the same active chlorine level as roughly 0.1 ppm FC with no CYA so a 10-20x difference. More than enough to account for at least the swimsuit degradation difference.

Anyway, if the customer truly does not want to use a halogen-based system (i.e. chlorine or bromine), then for pools the only other EPA-approved option is Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB with its own issues (and Amanda is in Spain where the regs are different anyway). For algae control, Polyquat 60 algicide used weekly should help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chem geek

For Amanda's customer, it sounds more like a residential pool and at typical low bather load the chlorine itself *might* be irritating, depending on its level, but for most people it is not. Most tap water is chlorinated, so if this customer showers or takes baths and doesn't get irritation then they might not actually have a problem with chlorine (unless the tap water is chloraminated, which is monochloramine).

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It's my suspicion that most of the "I'm allergic to chlorine" complaints -- except that it's usually a 3rd party who's allergic, like "my wife" or "my son" or "my customer" -- we get here are either psychosomatic in origin, or else misdirected blame. Otherwise as you note, you'd have a bazillion people who were complaining, "I'm allergic to my tap water". Unfortunately, I can't push hard to figure out what's going on, because the poster will either bail, or else be deeply offended, ie "How can you say that my darling wife is imagining it".

So, my suspicion will have to remain suspicion, and not conclusion. However, I still have seen ZERO evidence that chlorine ALLERGIES exist, and only suspect evidence that chlorine SENSITIVITY exists. (I have seen clear evidence that some people have more sensitive skin, than others do, to any sort of irritant.)

Quote:

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I just know that my wife hates swimming in our community center indoor pool over the winter because her swimsuits only last one season (elasticity gets shot) and her skin gets flakier and hair frizzier (though she never complained of irritation). In our own pool during the summer, none of these problems occur and her swim suits last for many years. The main difference is that the indoor pool has 1-2 ppm FC (sometimes more) with no CYA while our outdoor pool has 3-6 ppm FC with 40 ppm CYA which has the same active chlorine level as roughly 0.1 ppm FC with no CYA so a 10-20x difference. More than enough to account for at least the swimsuit degradation difference.

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I agree that there's strong evidence that CYA ameliorates chlorine's effects on suits.

By the way, I'm beginning to wonder if some of the US pool fraudsters have migrated to Europe and started hawking "oxigen" or "oxygen" as a sanitizer or what not. If so, I'd say, good riddance to bad rubbish, but I'm sorry for the Euro pool owners getting defrauded.

I've long suspected that people "allergic" to chlorine were, rather, sensitive to combined chloramines and other chemicals. I'm not as willing to go the psychosomatic route here...too many public and private pools don't follow our B-B-B methods there's tons of junk in them. I also see lots of people use ammonia-based algaecides and I wonder just how irritating those are, especially combined with chlorine. Nobody ever complains about my pool, and it's the only one my wife is willing to get into, because she's sensitive, not to chlorine, but to, well, you know, what's in OTHER pools. Me? I'm pretty well impervious as long as I use goggles and ear plugs for lapping. Have been all my life. Prior to my surgery, I was in our local YMCA indoor pool several times a week. They try very hard to keep it clean and I don't offer criticism or suggestions though I DO occasionally look at the maintenance log....However, I have about 3 more weeks to go before I'm cleared to swim again.

Carl

"Oxygen" as used here probably means hydrogen peroxyde, popular in Europe as a "substitute" for chlorine/bromine.

Thanks for that tip, Paul.

Is there any data you've seen published on the use of peroxide as a primary pool sanitizer? (I think we can safely hijack this thread -- the OP hasn't been back since her first post.)

Hydrogen peroxide is not approved by the EPA as a swimming pool or spa disinfectant (though it is used as an oxidizer in Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB pools/spas), but it is approved for pools and especially spas in Australia, though the level required (50 ppm) can be irritating. Note that the Sanosil products are a combination of hydrogen peroxide and silver ions.

Hi Richard!
Amanda is in Spain. Do you know anything about European use of H2O2?

Carl

Commercial/public pools in many countries in Europe follow the DIN 19643 standard which is lower levels of chlorine (0.3 to 0.6 ppm without ozone; 0.2 to 0.5 ppm with ozone) with no CYA combined with coagulation/filtration and granular activated carbon (used to remove THMs and other DBPs, but also removes chlorine with each pass). As for residential pools, I don't know if hydrogen peroxide is popular in Spain.

Hi Guys - wow this site is great my first post and what a response - thank you everyone. The reason I have not been back since is 2 reasons the first is work has been tremendously busy and the second reason is I forgot to save the site to my favourites and could not find the site again or the thread and no im not blonde.

Oxygen is potassium monopersulfate - although most pools in Spain are chlorine with a small percentage salt oxygen is used for the rich and famous if you like.

All the workers in my company use the photometers with tablets not drops as we think these are the most accurate in the market here is Spain, dip strips rely on eyesight and individual error.

Products here in Spain are terrible - still trying to find a product for mustard algae that actually works, have even tried importing from USA still waiting 2 years on for the license. Cant get buckman products infact never heard of them. We basically have to rely on chlorine, ph plus and minus and antialgas products we do have astral here it is the biggest company in Spain for products dont know if you know them.

I agree with most people that say they are allergic are not but now this pool / spa must stay as Oxygen, so need to find a solution that works with it.

To be honest was using stabilized Chlorine as when the cleaner is in (all morning 5 days a week) all the doors and windows are open leaving the spa very exposed so thought it would do no harm.

Ben - I dont want your pool fraudsters but thanks for the thought.

Look forward to hearing your continued thoughts, and will start a new post shortly regarding advise on mustard algae, really appreciate all the help guys as to be honest can be very hard staying on top of things in a country where products and information are so difficult to obtain. I really want our company to continue to hold the lead in this country and I think with the help of this forum it will be possible I cant tell you how many hours i spend researching different problems, solutions and ideas.

Amanda

A couple of quick responses.

1. So far as I know, potassium monopersulfate is NOT a microbiocide -- and it's not a great oxidizer. If you don't have an effective microbiocide in that pool, it's not a safe pool!

2. There two products sold in the USA as "mustard algae" products -- ammonium sulfate or chloride OR sodium bromide. Both are used in conjunction with chlorine; neither has any effect on mustard algae alone; both CHEMICALS are available in Europe, just not via pool distribution.

3. If you want us to help you, you'll need to tell us the CHEMICAL NAME of the products available to you. Once you have, we may be able to work something out. Include cost info, so we can see what's practical and what's not.

4. Check and see if borax is available, possibly as a cleaner or laundry aid. (Sodium tetraborate *hydrate)

5. Test strips are not -- as you suspect -- very accurate. Tablets can be fairly accurate, though usually not as accurate as a titration.

6. If you are doing color matching, you need to test all your employees for color discrimination. In my work, I found that few staff people were actually color-blind, but that MANY (>10%) of guys were 'color-dumb', in the sense that they'd never learned to pay attention to color differences and so had to be trained to see the different shades. You can get some really nasty results if you have a couple of workers who consistently misread the Palin color blocks!

7. Just to repeat: if you are sanitizing the pool with Oxone (monopersulfate), you are NOT sanitizing the pool!

8. Let us know how much natural light the pool gets: it's very unusual to get algae in a pool unless it gets a lot of natural light.

Hey Ben thanks for the replies - tomo when i have a little more time I will go through the products and write down all the contents, until then just wanted to let you know we use a digital photometer so no room for personal error only machine error.

Amanda

Ben is correct that potassium monopersulfate is NOT a disinfectant. It does not kill bacteria quickly enough to pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 nor DIN 19643 at swimming pool temperatures. These stringent requirements require 6-log (99.9999%) kill times in 30 seconds or less of Escherichia coli while MPS at 77ºF only does a 16.8% inactivation in 2 minutes so a 6-log kill would take around 10 minutes assuming one is maintaining a consistent MPS level. The only time it is used as a disinfectant is at hot spa temperatures along with silver ions as in the Nature2 product (the higher temperatures along with some effects from the silver ions combine to speed up kill times).

It is a selective oxidizer though I wouldn't say it is great. In spas that use silver ions + MPS, they usually need to use chlorine once a week or so to keep the water clear. MPS will oxidize some chemicals that chlorine won't and vice versa. As one example, in this paper, it was disclosed that MPS does not react very quickly with ammonium ion. Since chlorine does react quickly, monochloramine will be formed and MPS does not react with it before chlorine either. In the past, people were saying that MPS would oxidize ammonia and other chemicals before chlorine got a chance to and would therefore prevent disinfection by-product formation, but at least for ammonia that simply isn't true. MPS can react with unsaturated organic compounds (i.e. those with carbon-carbon double bonds) to form epoxides that can make them more soluble and it appears to oxidize creatinine and some other organics, possibly faster than chlorine though it does not appear to oxidize urea which is the largest nitrogenous component of sweat and urine (at least not without metal catalysts).

MPS can also be irritating, though this mostly comes from the minor contaminant potassium persulfate (aka peroxydisulfate) of 3% in Oxone. This irritating contaminant can be quickly removed in the presence of silver ions which is probably why Nature2 using silver ion and MPS is not normally irritating.

Thanks for the subscription, Amanda.

I show you as using the " Tele Satelite Mazarron S.L." network. This is important, because I actively block traffic from non-English speaking countries. The problem is that the overwhelming majority of traffic from outside the US, Canada, and Australia is from spammers and hackers. The percentage of bad traffic ranges from 100% (Russia, Ukraine), to 99% (China) down to 75% (Germany, Spain).

I will specifically enter a note not to block your network in my firewall script, but if you ever change networks, you may find yourself blocked. If you do, do go to "WhatIsMyIP.com" and find out what your new EXTERNAL ip address is. Then, email me at poolforum AT gmail DOT com, and tell me the IP, your user name, and that you are a blocked subscriber. I'll take it from there.

I'm

Ah Thanks Ben really appreciate it and that was why I subscribed I picked my trickiest problem posted the question to see what ideas anyone would have and then was so astounded by the replies decided I did not want to miss a thing - we have recently changed alot of things in our company and at the moment are leading with one other company for being the best in the area it is my aim to overtake them and be the best, I really think your forum and many experienced people on here will help me do that.

I dont want to sound nasty I think if we are honest everyone of us strives to be the best, we never slag other professionals just try to be the more helpful, with good prices and excellent products and advice and hope people see that and come back so far it is working, and we have different nationalities within the staff to try to please everyone which really works with such a huge expat community here.

I'm curious; I recently saw these two photos in http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085752/, and wondered if these were at all typical.

The first photo is reported as being on Menorca; the second in Kent. Of course, you may not know, but you'd be more likely to, than I am. The number of Intex type pools in the shot from Kent surprised me even more than the photo from Menorca.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...51_964x641.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/...99_964x628.jpg

Hi Ben,
The Menorca one looks exactly right and exactly like the area I live in, however the kent one looks like mostly plastic paddling pools which would also be right if they were having a good summer they are cheap to buy installed quick and easy and most people just throw them out after the summer, in the kent one I can only see what looks like one in ground pool.

Amanda

Wow. I just wouldn't have guessed there were that many pools in Spain. Are those vacation rentals, expat homes, or do they typically belong to native Spaniards?

a bit of all 3 to be honest but my area has a huge expat community and loads of rental properties and the natives are only just starting to buy into the area in the last year or so - looking forward to a slightly more balanced future now that is has just been confirmed that paramount pictures are building there next theme park here 20 mins up the road if you fancy a holiday will be finished in 2014

Not sure what area of Spain you're in, but my family's idea of a holiday would not include a theme park, but some thing more like this (on Menorca):
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5202/5...861a0e7d_z.jpg
That looks just about perfect, except that too many people got there first. ;-)

Larger: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5202/5...861a0e7d_b.jpg (arcfolder: "thread 14317")

from http://www.flickr.com/photos/visbeek/ (this would be the Dutch "Ben", not the one in Georgia ;)

oh we have loads of places that look like that just with much bigger mountains and not so much green lol, I am based in Mazarron, Murcia - or known as Costa Calida in Southern Spain.

Another question - I have been reading with great interest your BBB information - ask a stupid question get a stupid answer but do companies over there use this method - would really like to talk to you more about it but dont want to look stupid on a open thread.

Many experienced pool service guys have worked out bits and pieces of "the method" I've posted here and at PoolSolutions (and that Chem_Geek and others have extended). But I'm not aware of any active practicing pool service guys who admit using the "BBB Method". Even guys that I learned from, in generating this 'method', don't acknowledge significant elements of it.

For example -- and Chem_Geek may correct me -- there are STILL no pool books that acknowledge that the only EFFECTIVE way to lower carbonate alkalinity levels is via reduced pH *PLUS* aeration. And that is one of the bits of the BBB Method that's ironclad, with scads of anecdotal evidence, a comprehensive analytical explanation (thanks to Chem_Geek), and some clear experimental evidence. But, folks prefer being wrong, to admitting that they have been wrong.

Still, it's a hard thing for folks in the trade to accept. When I started PoolSolutions, I knew the methods I was using worked for me, and I had some pretty good ideas chemically about why. But I still wasn't sure I was right for a very simple reason: EVERY SINGLE pool book in existence at that time, and every pool publication, and every pool operations training program . . . said I was completely wrong.

It turns out I wasn't. But, that's very hard for people in the pool business to accept; that they should come to a website, written by a guy who never went to an NSPI meeting; who never worked for a big pool chemical company, and who was never very financially successful in the pool business . . . and believe what he says, over against what EVERYONE else in the pool business says. Oh, yeah, there are some smart-a$$ pool owners there too, but what do they know?

That's a pretty hard sell.

Some of the pool chemists know I'm right. The reasoning is not that hard to follow, and the evidence, once you consider it, is very, very strong.

But they have a simple problem: the BBB Method reduces pool chemical consumption by 50% or more, in almost every case. Most pool chemical companies today are struggling. Chemtura, which owns most of the US brands of chemicals, is in bankruptcy. Arch Chemical (or whatever holding company has that brand farm today) owns most of the rest. Neither company would survive a 25% reduction in US chemical sales; much less a 50% reduction. But, if they and the NSPF published the BBB Method (even if they didn't call it that, or acknowledge it), would see at least a 25% reduction in sales.

One of my long term moderators, CarlD, is fond of this quote from Upton Sinclair, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. " I'm quite sure those working for the big chemical companies, and for small pool chemical stores, perceive that the BBB Method is a threat to their businesses.

It scared me to death when I first realized that. For years, I was afraid that BioGuard / BioLab (now Chemtura) would file an expensive -- if bogus -- lawsuit against me, and shut me down, just because I couldn't afford to defend. I gather that it was considered -- I KNOW they were all over my site on a daily basis for at least two years. I'd found their network ip ranges, and they were constantly in my web server logs.

But, it's too late for them to do so, now. Even apart from the large body of BBB users, the rise of the SWCG systems is destroying the pool chemical market, and the chemical companies no longer have the money for bogus lawsuits.

Still, the success of the BBB Method has been built one desperate pool owner at a time. For most, once they try it, they never turn back. My guess is, with one major and several minor websites competing with mine to explain the BBB Method, in 30 years it will be the ONLY method of pool care. But, the demand for it will come from the pool owners rather than the pool builders or chemical companies.

But, while it's entirely true that the BBB Method is incompatible with the continued operations of the big pool chemical brands, and the pool stores that focus on selling chemicals, it is completely compatible with service companies like yours, that make money from results, not from how many pounds of chemicals they peddle.

Eventually, the pool trade media will acknowledge the BBB Method, and once it does, pool services guys will began switching over. Those that switch first will be the ones that gain a competitive advantage from it.

Here in Florida there are service tech that do use parts of the method (but are probably unaware they are doing so). Liquid Chlorine (sodium hypochlorite, bleach) is a common chlorine source here and if the pools are only serviced weekly they will often run a high CYA level (up to 100 ppm) and then just shock the pools weekly (to about 25 ppm) and the FC tend to stay above 8 ppm (which the the minimum recommend FC level for CYA at 100 ppm) until the next weekly service call.
This is similar to the way gas chlorinators run their pools with weekly chlorine gas injections.
Hope this helps.

Actually, I worked out some of the "BBB Method" from operational descriptions I got from one of the BIG companies shooting gas. Ironically, though they haven't acknowledged some of the chemistry behind their process. In part, they probably DO understand what's going on, and consider it a 'trade secret'. But, with respect to carbonates in pool water, they've published data that contributed to my working out what was going on, but have nevertheless never accepted that aeration + lowered pH is the ONLY method that works.

And, I found a few years ago, that there are segments of the potable water treatment industry that fully understand the aeration + lowered pH, along with all the chemistry.

But old habits . . . and old understandings . . . die hard.

Ben, Can i Pm you or have a email address as I want to discuss this further but not to the detriment of my business, as you know we run quite a big Pool maintenance service but we also have a shop for selling products now obviously the shop relies on the sales of the typical pool products and from this point of view not sure the BBB method would be good for this side of my business however for the pools we maintain we have a few with problems that so far I have not found a single product that has helped so what im thinking is using your method on for example 10% of our pools to see for myself if successful then we will use it for all. As with any normal company I am interested in things that cut the costs of the running and keep the pools in the same or better condition if my company can be in the lead this way then this is good for me and my business.

When you have a successfully operating service business, I completely agree that you should cautiously *TRY* a new method, before rolling it out for all your customers. There are going to be local variations in what's needed, to make it work in your area.

Beyond that, it's up to you. I don't know what pool chemicals are sold in your area, what typical pool and filtration systems are like, what the code requirements are, and more.

But, what I can tell you is that, if you are in pool chemical sales in the USA, there are 3 possible attributes you can have:
1. you can be knowledgeable
2. you can be honest
3. you can be an aggressive salesman of profitable chemicals

But, you can only have 2 of those 3 attributes at any one time: you can't be knowledgeable AND honest AND sell the profitable chemicals.

When I first started PoolSolutions, I fairly regularly got what I called 'nasty-grams' -- emails or phone calls of the "you traitor to your trade" variety. I found those amusing, and used to have a page publishing them. But, I remember one call from a lady who very much wanted to be honest, but who had a profitable pool chemical store selling chemicals that her customers didn't need. She was almost in tears, because she was afraid that I was right, but couldn't figure out how to keep her business AND be honest, now that she was more knowledgeable. She didn't do pool service, so I couldn't help her, which I greatly regretted.

But, since you do service, there may be another option.

Pool owners don't "want" chemicals; they "want" their pool to be right. When I started doing commercial pool service, I rapidly discovered that, the better the job I did on the pool, the less I made selling chemicals. I switched to flat fee service, typically charging $2500 - $4500 per season for all chemicals and service it took to make the water right. The customer had to agree to let me train their staff, and enforce water checks every 3 - 4 hours, and I agreed to come as often as needed, and with as much chlorine as needed. They were happy, because they'd often been spending more than that on chemicals alone. I was happy, because labor and chemicals were costing me about 1/2 of that. Later, I got smarter, and tried to set my prices at 10% OVER what they'd paid for chemicals alone . . . and they were still happy.

But, I made a serious mistake that ended up costing me most of my business. I'll warn you, so you don't do the same.

With commercial pools, staff tends to change from year to year, and after three years, typically none of the people who hired me -- and who remembered how badly the pool had run before -- were still at the pool. They'd heard about it, though. But, after six years, the staff simply assumed that the way their pool ran was the way pools mostly ran, and thus, that I was doing nothing special.

So, when someone came along promising them the moon, they got suckered; I lost my contract; and afterward they were too embarrassed to admit the mistake and hire me back.

What I SHOULD have done is collected info (photos, if possible) of how the pool had run BEFORE, and then continued to market my services to my NEW customers (old pool; new staff!) with annual newsletters and such that documented what their pool had been like before. Doing so would have allowed me to keep many of those customers much longer.

So, if you choose to go to flat fee service with your customers . . . then the money you save on chemicals will be yours. But, you need to make sure to continue "selling" the very real benefits of your service to your customers, so they don't get suckered by the flashy promises of your competitors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PoolDoc

For example -- and Chem_Geek may correct me -- there are STILL no pool books that acknowledge that the only EFFECTIVE way to lower carbonate alkalinity levels is via reduced pH *PLUS* aeration. And that is one of the bits of the BBB Method that's ironclad, with scads of anecdotal evidence, a comprehensive analytical explanation (thanks to Chem_Geek), and some clear experimental evidence. But, folks prefer being wrong, to admitting that they have been wrong.

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As I noted in the post Certified Pool Operator (CPO) training -- What is not taught, the 2009 "CPO® Handbook, National Swimming Pool Foundation®" with front cover title "Pool & Spa Operator™ Handbook" indicates that at higher levels of TA, the pH is usually higher than ideal and becomes very difficult to change, but does not indicate that TA itself is a source of rising pH due to carbon dioxide outgassing. In the Spa & Therapy Operations section, when discussing pH, there is a discussion of aeration and carbon dioxide outgassing causing the pH to rise (and it says the TA decreases which is incorrect; the TA only drops when acid is added as acid lowers both pH and TA). However, even in this discussion it is not made clear that this effect can be reduced by lowering the TA level (nor how to do that efficiently) and supplementing pH buffering with a different non-carbonate pH buffer such as borates.

So there are bits and pieces of the correct chemistry, but not the definitive procedure as Ben describes in Lowering Swimming Pool Alkalinity -- A Step By Step Guide. Unfortunately, the industry still too often touts the "slug" or "acid column" method which is dangerous and inefficient as described in this paper, a shorter version of which may be found in this paper and this link. The fact is that 25-1/2 fluid ounces of full-strength Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) in 10,000 gallons will lower the Total Alkalnity (TA) by 10 ppm no matter how you add it. The only thing you can affect is how quickly you can bring the pH back up without changing the TA, and that is accelerated by increasing the amount of aeration and having the pH be lower (at least near the water surface). This chart shows how over-carbonated the water is with respect to being in equilibrium with the air. The rate of outgassing increases with how far you are out-of-equilibrium, though the effect with TA is non-linear and appears to vary as the square of the TA (this effect is not shown in the table).

Ok Chem geek first its quicker - firstly let me tell you i was terrible at science in school and not much better as a adult have read your reply 3 times and whilst i just about get it my head is now mash, I think Bens paper is a little easier to digest however really do appreciate your input keep your thoughts coming but the simplier put the better for me lol.

Ben - one of the reasons my business here is so successful is because i am honest in what i am knowledgeable about.

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But, what I can tell you is that, if you are in pool chemical sales in the USA, there are 3 possible attributes you can have:
1. you can be knowledgeable
2. you can be honest
3. you can be an aggressive salesman of profitable chemicals

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my thoughts at the moment are to continue to sell the products in the retail outlet as mostly they do what they state, I already wont sell a product in the shop if i have tried it and it does not do what it says on the box.

if i try your method and it all works as it should which i suspect it will i think what i will do is use it on the pool maintenance side but only divulge it in the retail outlet if a customer for example asks me if i have heard of the method or if i have heard of using household products in swimming pools - at the moment i can honestly say it is a theory im playing with but have no visible proof, if it all works then yes i would happily tell customers that we are successfully using it in our pools, again i would not offer the information but i would stand by it if asked directly.

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But, I made a serious mistake that ended up costing me most of my business. I'll warn you, so you don't do the same.

With commercial pools, staff tends to change from year to year, and after three years, typically none of the people who hired me -- and who remembered how badly the pool had run before -- were still at the pool. They'd heard about it, though. But, after six years, the staff simply assumed that the way their pool ran was the way pools mostly ran, and thus, that I was doing nothing special.

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I really appreciate your warning but we dont work like this - you see we dont train staff, we have our own (my staff trained to my standards) so clients both private and commercial pay us and our staff go in and maintain the pool - so there is no fear of a changeover of staff just a changeover of management committees that do occasionally think they can get better for cheaper but some you lose and some you dont, also we always have photos of pools that were very bad on the start as we regularly use before and after photos in the retail outlet. as our contracts are yearly and with commercial pools we are invited back the following year to re-tender we normally include these photos.

now going back to your bbb method the only thing i dont understand is what do you use for algae apart from chlorine shock if anything - also i would like to give you 2 typical pool problems that we have come across more than once and see what your thoughts are.

first problem is although the most of our pools are the typical concrete pools the other common pool here is fibreglass - for some reason unknown to me all fibreglass pools have low ph normal between 6.7 - 6.9, all other chemical values are good but they all have this one thing in common and does not matter how much ph plus you put in they come up for a week and then go back down. - we now just leave them down but your thoughts on this interest me.

second thing is we have a small portion of pools with a orangey brown staining in the grouting again all chemical levels are fine now my thought is with this it normally starts on the floor and left alone it will rise up the walls you can brush it all off with a normal nylon brush or metal brush but the following week it is back and looking no different, we have tried shocking, tried a anti algae for mustard algae but nothing works. we have even emptied one pool and acid cleaned it but within 18 months it was back - all our pools are brushed weekly and levels are kept within good ranges.

sorry Ben I know im loading you with different things and problems but this is the most useful place i have found and eager to do whatever it takes to ensure my company is not only the best but most knowledgeable in the area and lastly willing to try everything to help us get there.

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Originally Posted by PMS SAyMI

first problem is although the most of our pools are the typical concrete pools the other common pool here is fibreglass - for some reason unknown to me all fibreglass pools have low ph normal between 6.7 - 6.9, all other chemical values are good but they all have this one thing in common and does not matter how much ph plus you put in they come up for a week and then go back down. - we now just leave them down but your thoughts on this interest me.
Fiberglass pools are common here also. In fact I have one myself and the only reason I know of that the pH would be low is because of the addition of an acidic chemical such as trichlor or dichlor or MPS. Is the TA as high in the fiberglass pools as in the plaster ones? Is acid being added for any reasons? Posting a full set of test results can tell us a lot more about what is going on.

second thing is we have a small portion of pools with a orangey brown staining in the grouting again all chemical levels are fine now my thought is with this it normally starts on the floor and left alone it will rise up the walls you can brush it all off with a normal nylon brush or metal brush but the following week it is back and looking no different, we have tried shocking, tried a anti algae for mustard algae but nothing works. we have even emptied one pool and acid cleaned it but within 18 months it was back - all our pools are brushed weekly and levels are kept within good ranges.
Once again without having water test results it is hard to say what is going on in these pools but I do have an idea. What is the chlorine source you are using? Is it a stabilized chlorine such as trichlor?

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Each pool is different, as you well know, and if you can post some of the acutal numbers and puoducts used (chemical names) from your 'problem pools' we might be able to figure out what is going on in them.