Pro Tease/ SWG CYA

I never thought I'd start a thread here, but what's a pool guy to do? I caught myself starting to flame http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=1028. So I'll continue the thought here.
I'm a professional, who has to broadcast dozens of lbs of their product into any given pool - yet, even with a 'backdoor/ private' line to them, I CAN'T get an honest/ logical/ reasonable answer from them!

In response to the ? "what's in Ocean Breeze (swg 'enhancer') and how does it work", the response I got was: It contains a 'corrosion inhibitor' (I'm assuming that Borax inhibits corrosion ) cya and buffer(baking soda) + dye and fragrance. I knew this from reading the fri**'n lable. When I tried to get a little more specific, I was deftly led into another topic about a chemist (Neil Lowry) who is now dead (apparently Jock Hammilton is too :( ), and, though my BS radar was on, I got sidetraked :o .
My flame is more about the panacea products sold (when I've been ordered to put in the Ocean Breeze, I'd already adjusted the chemistry and have to add a lot of s**t that isn't necessary, but was sold to the customer and not put on my 'work order') (FWIW- we're charging ~ $100/ 25 lb bucket - or maybe it's 2, 25lb bucketes ) I am very uncomfortable adding mystery chems to pools that are otherwise perfectly ballanced!!!!! And the blue dye seems to want to stick to white faceplates, white stairs and everything else at the waterline. Ben has a riff about 'miracle products' on Pool Solutions, which I fully agree with, I hate to be a part of the problem.
Also, when I was first told about the Pro Tease line, I was told that it 'takes the oxygen out of the water' - excuse me, but if you take the "O" out of "H2O", aren't you just left with a lot of H- the pool would be empty of water. In addition to that, plants use CO2, NOT O, to do their version of Krebs" cycle, they produce oxygen, not burn it.

While I'm ranting:WHY THE HECK DO SWG MANUFACTURERS RECOMMEND 60-80ppm cya????. Is there something inherent in SWGs that makes it necessary to have 2x the cya? (I've asked and asked but have yet to recieve a decent answer- the answers I've gotten are:
1) Oh, you're in Ct, that advice is for folks in warmer climates who have to 'top off' their pools more often. {my response: OK, fine but if you tie the cya to the salt (100:1), when you have to add salt, just add the cya}
2) We don't wan't people to test their pool and think our unit isn't working because they have no cl. {My response: so locking the cl up and letting them run @ 2 ppm -with whatever subsequant algae/hygene problems is BETTER???)
3) The way our units work...(NO useful/ reasonable/ logical info to follow) {my response: you are like the back 40 with 50 cows in it, i.e. full of sh-- [at this point one of us usually hangs up]}
To be quite honest, I'm a little supprised that Goldline(now Hayward) or ProTease still answer my calls :p !

Hi, Ted,

Very nice rant!!! I have a feeling if our paths cross we may consume multiple adult beverages and enjoy each one!!

Let me pass on my take on that high CYA level for SWG's. (I didn't think of it...it was an explanation I saw somewhere and it made some sense)

The idea is that when the pool water momentarily passes the cell, it is super chlorinated (shock). Because it is "nuked", it can then pass on into the main pool body as pristine water and, in that body, it is fine to hold only 1 or 1.5ppm residual just because it got nuked. Therefore, the CYA can be up 80-100 holding onto that 1 or 1.5 as long as possible 'cause the cell is gonna' nuke it again when it passes through.

That may be complete horse pucky but it sorta' made sense to this dumb ole' country boy.

Hell, I still think "wrasslin'" is real so I wouldn't take me as any reliable resource :D :D

I got a similar answer from Goldline tech support when I asked about the CYA levels. It is amazing how much they will tell you when you pretend you are clueless!;) This is also how I found out that the 'minerals' setting on my aqaulogic is "for people who are using Bioguards Mineral Springs system and it only changes the word displayed...the readings are the same":rolleyes:

Now THAT is a rant I could start....how companies like Bioguard and NaturalChemisty ( and let's not forget Nature2) make all these claims about how their products are better but don't really provide any documetation or proof of exactly what they are doing. ProTeam (I believe the parent company is Halivand Enterprises) actually has a decent and full line of sometimes necessary (and some unnecessary) pool chemicals and they make their MSDS available easily.

Waste, ProTeam isn't the only company pushing borax....don't forget Bioguards Optimizer, and I have also seen some 'private label' products on the net from some of the supply houses.

Your link isn't working.

My pool store (the one who does all the Warranty work for my Pool Buider) ushes their Mineral Springs SWG system. I refuse to listen to them for the same reasons. They won't tell me what is in it besides salt and why I should have to apply their "Renewal" product every week instead of just Muriatic Acid as needed. It has to have ph down in it and additional salt. It also has to have CYA in it per their literature (http://www.bioguard.com/mineralsprings.shtml) and we all know adding CYA regularly does. However, what else it has is like the "magic" stuff in your Ocean Breeze system.

The guy who openned my pool from the pool store almost had heart failure when I told him I used solar salt from Lowes as my salt source.

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Originally Posted by waste

I never thought I'd start a thread here, but what's a pool guy to do? I caught myself starting to flame (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=1028)

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For some reason this link is redirecting me to www.microsoft.com !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!:eek::eek::eek:

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Originally Posted by waterbear

For some reason this link is redirecting me to www.microsoft.com !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!:eek::eek::eek:

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It's because the opening and closing parenthesis got included in the url. Try this.

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Originally Posted by tmmort

It's because the opening and closing parenthesis got included in the url. Try this.

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Well, take away all my geek credentials for not noticing that one!:o (and I used to do admin and system maintenace for an ISP and can rember what it was like to submit Fortran programs on punch cards to a mainframe! can't get much geekier than that.)

Thanks all for the input:)
Ok, I can not link worth a damn. (But I figured Bill Gates could probably use a little more business - I try to help out the small business owner when possible :p
tmmort, thanks for supplying the link I failed to create.
Evan, Thanks for the input. Did this, and the thread tmmort made accesible, answer your pm to me? (IMHO - you are prooving yourself to be a key member of this forum, I've said the same thing about duraliegh. If it means anything, I think you and Dave would make great moderators, should Ben feel it's necessary to have more :) ) (I'm fairly sure you're right about the 'parent co')
Dave, my step-brother and his family live in Durham, if I can think of a reason to go visit, I'll let you know - hopefully we could meet, even if the drinks were few, I would at least like to shake your hand and say 'Hi' in person. What doesn't sit well with me with what you passed on, is that the chlorine is 'locked' (as per the 'Best guess'). Albeit, the water will eventually get 'shocked' by the cell, but what happens with the water that has a virulent glob of puss until it hits the cell? I can see that the water is being 'shocked' when it passes through the cell, but WHY have the cya so high?? With a SWCG [:)], you are cutting out the middle man if you used just bleach, but with a BBB program,I would park my cya @ 25 - 40 ppm, why does a swg need 2X the cya?

Anyway, back to my b*tching.
I started this thread yesterday @ 5:30 (y'all can see the 'post time' for it) Not only can't I link, but it takes me hours to compose a post, and I still can't spell ;) I 'lost' 3 drafts, before I posted - here's some that got lost:

The Ocean Breeze claimes to make the water 'softer' and 'less irritating'. (Remember that this stuff is for SALT pools). The salt water itself does this, will they claim next that their product makes the water 'wet'???? These nice folks have the audacity to also market thier own soda ash... to be used to raise the pH of the water? (When I remember that "THE INDUSTRY" doesn't follow Ben's advice, it almost makes sense, but with their requirement to add 3/4 lb per lb of their product (used to keep algae out or make the pool 'sparklier', you'd think that someone would realise that the borates raise the pH)) I'm suprised that the male members of their board of directors can sit comfortaby (think ram sheep at the ag fair)
Again, thanks to all who viewed and answered my original post here, I think I'm done, but who knows (thanks for letting me vent some!!)

Waste,
First, thank you for the sincere complement. I just try to do my best with what little I know.
Second, you pretty much answered my PM ;):rolleyes::eek::)!

Third, just a comment on why the product companies that sell borax also sell sodium carbonate for pH control....This is just my opinion and has no basis in fact!
Total Alkalinity is also called Carbonate Hardness and is a measure of the carbonate/bicarbonate/carbonic acid buffer system in the water. This is why they recommend sodium carbonate to raise pH since it is part of the buffer system. Downside is that is also raises alkalinity. Borax creates a secondary boric acid/borate buffer system in the water and adds no carbonates to the water which is why it has minimal impact on TA. I am not really sure of all the chemistry of how the 2 buffer system interact at the moment. Would love to research it when (hahaha, more likely IF) I get the time!

an interesting side note, I recently saw a product by Lo-Chlor Specialty Pool Chemicals that adds magnesium to the water to help prevent calcium scaling on salt cells since the magnesium carbonate scale is 'mushy' and washes off easily. The chemisty behind it is sound but with all these additive the pool is becoming more like a salt water aquarium instead of a salt pool. (Hmmm, I wonder if using aqarium salt in a pool might solve all these problems at once? Don't know if I'm brave enough to start adding "Instant Ocean" or "Reef Crystals" to my pool but they do contain the borates and magnesium salts! :rolleyes: They're too expensive anyway!)

I've skimmed this thread, and agree with most of what I read: welcome to the wonderful world of marketing!

The interesting thing for me has been, as I came to understand how marketing and sales deception drove the pool industry, I began to see the same sort of deception in most other realms of marketing.

Chemicals seem to be a realm in which deceptive marketing especially flourishes, whether it's cleaning chemicals or pharmeceuticals. But cars, toys, electronics, 'personal hygiene products' and more are all sold with the same kinds of lies.

That's just the kind of world it is in which we live!

Ben

PS: Thanks for keeping the rants here, instead of in the general discussions. But that doesn't mean that newbies shouldn't be told that Proteam is just borax.

PPS: Waste, before you are too hard on your employers, spend some time thinking about what sort of *workable* business model they could adopt that would allow them to be both honest and adequately profitable. I was fortunate, early on, to stumble on a commercial pool service model that allowed both. But, it's model few in the industry understand, and it was tailored somewhat to my own skills which are not entirely typical. Dishonesty is always dishonesty, but even the Bible excuses it more when it's for the sake of eating.

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Originally Posted by waste

will they claim next that their product makes the water 'wet'????

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Actually, there IS a product out there called "Water Wetter"!! It's for car and motorcycle radiators and it's supposed to improve the heat transfer to the radiator. The crazy thing is the stuff actually works! Vehicles DO run cooler. In racing, I gather you cannot run anti-freeze--in an accident or a spill it causes other accidents. So they run distilled water, and ALL of the teams add "Water Wetter" to it to improve the performance.

Thought THAT would be good for grins!:D

And I thought a "water wetter" was my friends 4 year old?:p

Great rant waste! I'm with ya man. Seems that everyone and everything is driven by the almighty $$. Since we're ranting, why can't anyone else come up with a realistic "Best Guess" chart like Ben? Several people (legitimate or not) have discussed the effects of high CYA on FC yet even the CDC states FC should be between .5 & 3 and CYA should be no higher than 100. Soooooo, FC of 3 and CYA of 100 is O.K???????

From the Salt Peanut Gallery.... YES!

Hey all,
Again, thanks for all the input (ohmygosh - I started a popular thread :o ).
(Ben, I just noticed it - thanks for fixing my 'bad' link :) )
For all who've followed this 'rant' I'd like to direct you to my latest on the ? that started this thread.
(fingers crossed)... http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?p=9262

Holy &^%*$##@ I made a successful link!!!