Bleach not staying in pool?

I've read previous posts on this matter, here is my available info :
CL level (hovering between 1-2ppm)
PH 7.4
Alk 110
Cya (was around 60/70 last time I checked ..out of test fluid)
20k IG gallon pool w/ electric cover

so I'm not losing CL from the sun because I'm covered most every day 'cept swim days ...

I had a possible algae bloom 3 weeks ago , brought CL level up to 7-10PPM , also threw in yellow out (20k gallons, 2 bags) cleared the pool within a week...

could I be getting a false reading due to something? If the pool is clear & free of Algae , what could be consuming 10% liquid bleach (1-2 gallons) over night

thanks!
KE

KE,

Can you do a Combined Chloramines test (CC)? If not, I suspect you are still losing it to organics still in the pool.

To the best of my knowledge, sunlight and organics are about the only two things that make it go away......for example, the few indoor pools you see on here usually have the problem of too much Cl and no way to get rid of it...it's just too clean.

I have no idea what's in yellow out or it's function but it sounds like to me you simply need to bring your Cl levels up til they stabilize....perhaps to shock level.

Can you smell Chlorine when you walk around the pool? That's an indicator you need more Cl. :)

I suspect that maybe you didn't kill all the algae. With a cya of 60-70, the chlorine level you need to regularly maintain is 5-10. You said that you raised your chlorine level up to 7 to try and kill the algae. That isn't high enough for your pool. Shock level for a pool with that much cya is about 20ppm. Take a look at the chart at the following link. I have a feeling that may be the problem - that you really didn't eradicate the organic stuff in your water. Like Dave said, you will probably find that you have a CC reading. My advice is to shock the pool for a few days. Try and maintain the high level without letting it yo-yo up and down. To do this, you'll need to test at least a couple of times a day (3x a day is even better) and each time add enough bleach to take it back up to shock level. BTW - uncover your pool while your chlorine level is high so you won't damage your cover.

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365

Check out this page on Poolsolutions. Ben talks about how 'chlorine enhancers and boosters' contain either ammonia or bromine and will cause a HUGE chlorine demand after you use them. Yellow Out is one of the products he mentions.
http://www.poolsolutions.com/tips/tip44.html

He also says on the page to send him a message if you have used one and your Cl has gone AWOL!:eek:

Evan,

That is an excellent post. You do great research and that's a potential solution that not many would've recognized.

Okay, I'm done being Mr. Nice....back to my cynical self!! :D

H20man, my bet is Waterbear has posted your answer.....I would still test for CC's but keep adding Cl in there and see if it doesn't stabilize soon.

thanks 4 the help!

I suspected the Yellow Out was the culprit, but I figured after 3 weeks it had run it's course & be back to normal.....

also , can u have algae hanging on even though pool is clear?

I hate to leave the pool cover open because I lose degrees! :( but don't wanna fry it too!

thanks again

GASP! I think I am going to faint! I got a compliment from Dave!;)
(just kidding, I thank you for the compliment! I HAVE studied the Poolsolutions sight to try and learn everything I can on there and just reread it again about a week ago so it was fresh in my mind :))

Seriously h20man, If the product was ammonia based it will create a HUGE chlorine demand and if it is bromine based then you might have a bromine pool for a while. If it is bromine then check out this page on Poolsolutions
http://www.poolsolutions.com/tips/tip10.html

I tried to find a MSDS for Yellow Out but they don't have one on the website. Are the ingredients listed on the package? That would be helpful.

Just 'from the hip', I'm thinking the 'yellow out' had bromine as it's key ingredient. (I'll try to remember to check the store room at work tomorow) If that is the case, then the low reading is caused by your checking a bromine pool for chlorine - see Evan's link to Ben's take on "once a bromine..." topic.

Re-reading Ben's article that Evan linked to makes me doubt that the single dose of Yellow Out is the culprit, especially if bromine is the primary ingredient. Ben refers to "repeated or excessive doses" which a single, normal dose of yellow out wouldn't seem to be. Also, when testing with DPD, doesn't bromine show up just as chlorine would? In other words, wouldn't every ppm of bromide ion that was converted by the chlorine into free bromide, thus "consuming" the free chlorine, show up on on a DPD test just like free chlorine?


Just a thought.

Not really because the bromine reading is 2.something of the chlorine reading (I think it's 2.25 but don't hold me to that!) so if he was showing 1 to 2 ppm chlorine in the pool and was actually testing bromine it would have been over 2ppm to over 4 ppm bromine level.

so my question is , is my current low test result for CL level accurate or is it false possibly due to the Yellow out...in other words is the Yellow Out consuming the bleach I add , or is there really alot of hidden CL in my pool when I read 1-2PPM? thanks 4 the help guys & if I remember correctly Bromine is the main ingriedient , I put in the proper amount for 20k gallons > 2 bags

also, is it necessary to clean out the Bromine pool w/ bleach , or does it just return to normal soon?
thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waterbear

Not really because the bromine reading is 2.something of the chlorine reading (I think it's 2.25 but don't hold me to that!) so if he was showing 1 to 2 ppm chlorine in the pool and was actually testing bromine it would have been over 2ppm to over 4 ppm bromine level.

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Evan, So it's probably not bromine, right? It would be showing up on the tests at a much higher level if it was there, wouldn't it? (Excuse my ignorance if I'm misreading your post.)

If it was ammonia based, wouldn't it already have been consumed by the relatively high doses of chlorine he's been using?

You may, of course, yet be right (as you usually are), but I'm guessing Dave was on to something with his lurking organic theory.

Waterman, I don't think anyone is saying that the Yellow Out, whether bromine or ammonia based, is falsely supressing your chlorine test readings. Rather something is consuming your chlorine.

Read the 2nd of Ben's articles that Evan linked to; it should answer your question on getting the bromine out.

As to what you should do, absent some other revalation, I think going back to the basics of keeping your chlorine at shock levels, until it holds over night, is your best bet. According to Ben's Best Guess chart, for a CYA level of 60-70, that would be 20 ppm (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365)

Best of luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KurtV

Evan, So it's probably not bromine, right? It would be showing up on the tests at a much higher level if it was there, wouldn't it? (Excuse my ignorance if I'm misreading your post.)
Not unless the tester is also calibrated for bromine readings and you use that scale!
If it was ammonia based, wouldn't it already have been consumed by the relatively high doses of chlorine he's been using?
maybe, maybe not...depend on how much is there and how much chlorine has been added.
You may, of course, yet be right (as you usually are), but I'm guessing Dave was on to something with his lurking organic theory.
one of the organics in the water is possibly ammonia or urea...same effect as adding a non organic form of ammonia...creates a huge clorine demand. either way chlorine is the answer.
Waterman, I don't think anyone is saying that the Yellow Out, whether bromine or ammonia based, is falsely supressing your chlorine test readings. Rather something is consuming your chlorine.

Read the 2nd of Ben's articles that Evan linked to; it should answer your question on getting the bromine out.

As to what you should do, absent some other revalation, I think going back to the basics of keeping your chlorine at shock levels, until it holds over night, is your best bet. According to Ben's Best Guess chart, for a CYA level of 60-70, that would be 20 ppm (http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=365)

Best of luck.

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Hope this is helpful!
Perhaps Ben will add his expert knowledge to this thread. I've reached the extent of my limited knowledge!:eek:

Edit: just reread the posts and noticed that h2Oman is keeping the pool covered. Don't know if that is part of the problem but it might be.

Me: "Evan, So it's probably not bromine, right? It would be showing up on the tests at a much higher level if it was there, wouldn't it? (Excuse my ignorance if I'm misreading your post.)"
Waterbear: "Not unless the tester is also calibrated for bromine readings and you use that scale!"

Me again: I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that with the Tayor DPD test you couldn't really tell if you had chlorine, bromine, or a combination of the two. Further, that you only multiplied by the bromine factor (2.25) when you knew you had bromine sanitized water; otherwise you just assume it's chlorine. Am I way off here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by h20man

also , can u have algae hanging on even though pool is clear?

thanks again

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YES. My first ever algae problem was a build up of slime on the liner in my pool. Water was clean & clear, but bottom was slick.

CaryB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KurtV

Me: "Evan, So it's probably not bromine, right? It would be showing up on the tests at a much higher level if it was there, wouldn't it? (Excuse my ignorance if I'm misreading your post.)"
Waterbear: "Not unless the tester is also calibrated for bromine readings and you use that scale!"

Me again: I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that with the Tayor DPD test you couldn't really tell if you had chlorine, bromine, or a combination of the two. Further, that you only multiplied by the bromine factor (2.25) when you knew you had bromine sanitized water; otherwise you just assume it's chlorine. Am I way off here?

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The taylor comparators have separate scales on them for bromine and chlorine and the taylor FAS-DPD test uses a different reagent (I assume it's the concentration that is different) for bromine and chlorine to take this into account. The actual test will not tell you which is in the water. You need to know so you know what scale to read or what correction factor you need to get the reading. As far as my understanding goes, if you have ANY active bromine in the water you have a bromine pool.

Evan, Just before reading your latest, I went to Taylor's website and read through the instructions for the K-2005 and K-2006 kits; boy was I off base. Should have done that research before posting on this sub-topic.

I know that sometime in the not-too-distant past, I read something along the lines of what I posted but I must have misinterpreted it (or mis-remembered or mis-somethinged).

I think I have it now (at least to the limits of my meager intellect and too-long-ago chemistry education). Thanks.

Anytime I get any kind of algae problem that 10-15ppm of Cl doesn't permanently fix - I just toss a quart of Polyquat in the pool.

The past two years - I have had a 'whispy green' algae that starts to form right in the middle of the year. Shocking never gets rid of it - nor does vacuuming. The polyquat does the trick everytime.

Granted - it's a little expensive @ $20+ a quart - but worth it in terms of time saved.

I checked my CYA & it was @ 7!! Didn't think just warm water can eat up CL as fast as it's been going...pool is @ 85 deg.
FC 0.1
TC 0.2
CC 0.1
PH 7.3
CYA 7
TA 178 - high :(
CALC 385 - high :(

dumped in stabalizer & re bleached tonight w/ 2 gallons 10% , we'll see tomorrow

my next question is w/ my ALK & CALC being so high , how can I add muriatic acid w/o dropping my PH too low, maybe I should stay put?
thanks

H2O,

Your alkalinity is high but not crazy high and your CH is in the acceptable range (at least according to most of those "recommended levels" tables you see). I wouldn't worry about either for now.

Something is still eating your chlorine and really, no matter what it is, the cheapest and most effective recipe for fixing it is probably more chlorine. Dose up the chlorine to shock level as you're doing (10 or 15 ppm will probably work with your low CYA level), test frequently (like 3 times a day if you can), and keep adding chlorine as needed to bring it back up to your shock level. Once it holds free chlorine overnight you should be on the downhill side of this.

Good luck.