Pool walls out of square

Hi,

We just began our 14'X28'X19' full L pool install. The pool company installed the walls and floor and its 7" out of square, this is an indoor pool with only 6' around the outside of the pool to the walls. In 14' on the ends the pool slants 3-4" with no way of squaring the house around it.

The total cost of our pool install is around $33,000, and their only offering $1000 off the price for the mess up. To me thats quite low considering that its an indoor pool and your will see the angled walls with the house walls.

What are your thoughts? I estimated about $9900 for them to remove it and redo it (not sure if they would get it right anyways if they do it again), is the $1000 acceptable or should I make them rip it out?

heres my estimate on tear out cost, the pool is a 48" steel wall one with a liner. They pour concrete around the outside of the walls with angles coming off the walls going into the cement. I dont think they will be able to save the walls when they remove the concrete from them.

Pool floor= at least 4.5 meters at $110/m = $500
outside footing = 3.5 meters at $110/m = $385
man hours 4 men at at least 8 hours a day x 3 days = 96 man hours at avg $15/h=$1440
Excavation and pool removal at least 4 hours at $100/h = $400
Wall price for a smaller pool from http://www.canadianpoolwholesalers.c...-onground.html but comparable theres no way your saving those original walls, or at least that i will accept the bent mess they come out in
Grecian 48" Wall Pool Kit 15x29 $6999
disposal of concrete from tear out $200
Total for reinstall = $9924

plus the time they lose being at my site again rather than somewhere else.

Do these costs seem fair?
Thanks
Jason

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l315/figstimpy/9.jpg

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l315/figstimpy/10.jpg

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l315/figstimpy/11.jpg

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l315/figstimpy/12.jpg

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l3...y/DSC_1585.jpg

BTW we live in Ontario Canada

It is hard for anyone not in the game there in CA to know what’s fair. The man hours @ $15/h seems very fair to me, in fact it seems ridiculously low. The other charges are harder to gage because they include a lot of mysterious cost like equipment and horse feed :)

Sadly with just about any contractor you almost have to be there 24/7 and baby sit the whole project.

I’ve had my share of battles with them, won a few lost a few.

Have you looked at your contract for any kind of quality clause or acceptable tolerance gibberish?

Know any lawyers? Have you considered other bids from the competition?

From the pictures it appears that the construction is far from complete. I’m wondering why it’s so complicated to square it at this stage?

We went with this company because it is suppose to be the best company in our area, and we wanted quality, which is not the case now i guess.

They also feel that they can remove the walls with out damaging but I can't see how. The concrete around the angles will be quite hard to jack hammer out with out damaging the supports.

We had lines for them to measure off of and they were all squared, they didnt use any of them and theres no way to square the house around it, since the pool is 7" out of square. We moved the house lines to line up with the pool wall but no matter how you turn the house the pool will always be out of square with the other 2 walls. Its a parallelogram no way to put that in a square room.

The pool company insisted that they had to put the pool in first, now either its going to be out square or the pool comes out.

Another thing I was just thinking after reading some other posts, should there be a floor drain in the 7' deep end, that should of been put in when the floor was poured

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Figstimpy

Another thing I was just thinking after reading some other posts, should there be a floor drain in the 7' deep end, that should of been put in when the floor was poured

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It's not a drain per se but a feed line to the pump. I don't suppose one is absolutely necessary, though I've never seen a pool without one. Can’t see it in the pictures.

Did they lay the plumbing?

Let them worry about damage to correct the geometry. All you want is what you paid for – a square pool. Any damage they do in the fix is their problem.

There was no plumbing laid, and the floor is solid no holes or drains

Then check the plans. If there’s a “drain” they messed up.

The plans might have a piping diagram too, a single line drawing showing the piping valves, pump, filter and any other required equipment.

If you need help reading the diagram post a picture.

No plans other than the pool drawing, but here is the list of stuff from their quote

THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO QUOTE THE LORENTZ FAMILY
YOUR INSTALLED DELUXE 14X28 IN GROUND POOL INCLUDES:
EXCAVATION OF POOL
42” 14 GUAGE STEEL WALLS & SUPPORT STRUCTURE
GROUT CUSTOM FLOOR
CONCRETE SURROUND FOUNTATION FOOTING
40 TONNE ¾” WASHED STONE BACKFILL TO SUPPORT PLUMBING
HAYWARD RECIRCULATION KIT- SKIMMER & 2 JETS
PLUMBING DONE IN CSA PIPE, FITTINGS, UNIONS AND VALVES
COPING-ALUMINUM IN WHITE
LINER- FULL PRINT IN 30 ML
LINER PADDING AND LINER COPING LOCK
HAYWARD PUMP 1 HP SUPER PUMP & SYSTEM 3 CARTRIDGE FILTRATION
STAIR- 8 FT. WALK IN ROMAN STAIR IN WHITE- CENTER SHALLOW END
HEAT SAVR SYSTEM-LIQUID SOLAR BLANKET WITH AUTOMATIC METERING PUMP
LIGHTS BY AQUALAMP – 2- RAINBOW COLOURED WALL LIGHTS 12 VOLT
IONIZER BY CHLORINE SAVER FOR THE WEEKLY WATER TREATMENT
HAYWARD CHLORINATOR TO SUPPORT IONIZER
TYPHOON SLIDE WITH WATER CONNECTION
BRASS DECK ANCHOR FOR FUTURE BASKETBALL GAME
MANUAL MAINTENANCE EQUIPMENT-EVERYTHING TO CLEAN AND TEST THE WATER
START UP WATER TREATMENT KIT & WATER BALANCING
DELUXE POOL PRICE QUOTE AS LISTED ABOVE
14X28 RECTANGLE W/ 2 FT. RADIUS CORNERS $31,796.+ 4133.(HST)=$35929.00
Page 1
Untitled
THE REVOLUTION POOL LIFT WITH WHEELCHAIR INCLUDED
ADDITIONAL BATTERY 24V $11,486. + 1493. (HST)=$12979.00
OR
THE LIBERTY LIFT WITH WHEELCHAIR INCLUDED
ADDITIONAL BATTERY 24V $11719. + 1523. (HST)=$13242.00
CONSTRUCTION TERMS: ALL SUBJECT TO SITE INSPECTION
-EXTRA STONE AT COST OF STONE, PLACEMENT N/C UPTO 60 TONNE
-ELECTRICAL BONDING, WIRING, BUILDING PERMITS, LOCATES AND WATER SUPPLIED BY OWNER.
PAYMENT TERMS:
PRE SEASON BOOKING (NOV.-APR 2011) $1000. REFUNDABLE
35% UPON AGREEMENT OF CONTRACT LESS PRE SEASON DEPOSIT
25% UPON COMPLETION OF WALLS
25% UPON COMPLETION OF LINER
10% UPON COMPLETION OF POOL
5% 30 DAYS AFTER COMPLETION OF POOL
TO BE DISCUSSED:
FLOOR PLAN OF POOL, LINER PATTERN
TIMING FOR POOL AND BUILDING CONSTRUCTION
IN FLOOR HEATING RE SLIDE AND LIFT MOUNTING HARDWARE IN DECK
DECK INSTALLATION AROUND POOL FIXTURES
LOCATION OF EQUIPMENT ROOM
HEATING POOL WATER, ROOM AND CONTROLLING HUMIDITY OF ROOM
PLUMBING REQUIRED TO CONNECT POOL TO HEAT SOURCE
RUBAROC FLOOR COVERING START AT $12. PER SQ. FT.
Page 2
Untitled
THIS IS A STARTING POINT FOR PLANNING YOUR INDOOR PROJECT. IF YOU HAVE ANY SPECIAL
REQUEST OR WANT TO MODIFY THE DELUXE KIT, JUST CALL FOR PRICING.

the size was adjusted to a full L and to 48" walls

heres the diagram

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l3...mpy/pool-1.jpg

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l3...mpy/pool-2.jpg

thanks

Hmm the quote doesn’t specifically list a drain.
It does say HAYWARD RECIRCULATION KIT- SKIMMER & 2 JETS
That would imply the filter is fed from a skimmer only and the water returned to the pool via the 2 jets. That saves some plumbing I guess.

The interesting thing I see is the Installation Data that lists the point to point dimensions. I suppose that’s how the problem was discovered.

You can argue it’s their error they are responsible to meet the specs. I guess you have to fight it out with them.

Good luck Mr. Lorentz.

the small numbers on those plans are ones i changed, this original one had a 12' shallow and we didnt want that. I only changed the info on the drawings to represent the dimensions.

The shallow end is 14X19X 4', the deep is 14'X14', with a 5'X8' section at 7'. The slopes coming in from the sides and end slope 3', and the slope from the shallow is 6'

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Figstimpy

the small numbers on those plans are ones i changed, this original one had a 12' shallow and we didnt want that. I only changed the info on the drawings to represent the dimensions.

The shallow end is 14X19X 4', the deep is 14'X14', with a 5'X8' section at 7'. The slopes coming in from the sides and end slope 3', and the slope from the shallow is 6'

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I was referring to the table on sheet 1 titled Installation Data that shows the plan of the pool.

This shows the dimensions from the work points. If the walls are 7” out of square then some of those dimensions were not held.

For example, the table says from point B to point C is 10’-0” and from point B to point K is 31’-9”. If those measured dimensions are not held then you’d have an out of square situation. In other words line B-C is not parallel to line N-K.

I assumed the out of square problem is with the plan, since you mentioned the enclosure would not be square with the house. Are there also problems with the depth as well?

I am pretty sure they never put a tape to it at all by the way it measures, think they just bolted the panels together that were suppose together and didnt check anything else.

I haven't checked the depths as i am not sure what size of coping will be on the top of the walls

When we were planning the pool they would get back to me via email within an hour of sending it... its been 2 days since i sent them saying no to there $1000 deal and the costs i figure it would cost them to take it out. Feels a liitle like there avoiding the situation

Thanks again for your insight

I hadnt noticed that the drawings had the squares on them, I just inputted the data into my construction master. I will check those out next time i am out there.

thanks again

Quote:

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Feels a liitle like there avoiding the situation

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Well could be, though it is the busy time of year. All you really can do is try to reason with them and work out a solution. No one wants a court battle.

You can check the walls against the floor with a framing square. Should be pretty easy to see.

I have never tried Angie's List myself but you might find something there.

Best of luck.

Sorry you're having this issue! With a little care the collar can be removed without damaging the panels - I've done it a few times. There is no doubt that you got a substandard install. Your estimate of the cost to fix it is probably a little low and they are offering you ~10% of that to 'deal with' their mistake. Squaring a liner pool is a little tedious, but not difficult because once you establish one wall, it's pretty easy to get the rest of the pool 'squared' up with it.

I've built over 500 IG liner pools and am willing to discuss this with you more. I HOPE you get decent resolution on this!

They got back to me, they want to meet up to talk... he said and I quote "theres no way I am gibving you F****** $10,000" I said i wasnt asking for it just saying what it would cost to take it out and redo it, and that the $1000 was a joke.

My question is will the out of square cause any issues down the road such as liner not fitting properly or is it purely going to be cosmetic and just be something I have to get use to looking at every day?

Thanks again guys for all your feedback

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Figstimpy

They got back to me, they want to meet up to talk... he said and I quote "theres no way I am gibving you F****** $10,000" I said i wasnt asking for it just saying what it would cost to take it out and redo it, and that the $1000 was a joke.

My question is will the out of square cause any issues down the road such as liner not fitting properly or is it purely going to be cosmetic and just be something I have to get use to looking at every day?
Thanks again guys for all your feedback

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You will most likely have wrinkles in those tight corners <90 degrees and stretching in the ones >90 degrees. Maybe even liner coming out of the coping.

Check how bad the out of square angles are by using a framing square. One of the building experts here may be able to predict the issues.

None of the corners are 90's there 2' round corners so I can't check with a framing square. Do u think the same liner issues will be with the round one as there would of been with the square corners

It’s hard to predict. I’d guess the round corners to be more forgiving than tight square corners. I only have experience with my pool with square corners.
Even with radius corners you have the angle between adjacent walls.

Maybe waste will drop in for a visit.

Thought of a way to check radius corners for square.

Look at the attachment. You need some blocking at least as wide as the radius.
Cut two square pieces of plywood. You’ll probably need an extra pair of hands to hold them agains the wall. Set the blocking as shown and use the framing square to see how it looks.

They may even make offset squares for just such a situation.

Just an idea.

I'd use the Pythagorean theorem.. Easier to extend the centre lines of each side to intersect, then measure out from that corner 3' on one wall and make a mark, 4' on the other wall and make a mark. Measure across from mark to mark and you should get 5'. Most builders use it so why they didn't just shows a lack of professionalism. I'm a licensed Realtor in Ontario and want to also point out the potential loss to the value of the house. If it's obvious to see the out of square once the house is built around it then it could be a deterrent when selling. I'd hold all payments and call a lawyer now.

Nice, I know this as the 3-4-5 rule.

Yeah my gut reaction to all this is laywers. :(

If you can live with it being out of square, you can get a custom liner that will fit the pool with no wrinkles. If you're willing to accept a defective pool, the least the builder should do is get you the liner that will fit the pool and not charge you extra for it!

They'll have to break out their tape measures (probably for the first time) and be able to give the liner manufacturer exact measurements of the pool and possibly the floor. Maybe this will teach them to 'measure twice, install once'. And have them leave you a copy of the measurements so you can just order a replacement liner yourself in 20 years, without having to deal with them again, IF they are still in business.

I come from doing cement foundations so we use the construction master calculator to punch the actual measurements in giving you the total squares rather than the 3-4-5 rule. Thant is how I knew it was out of square in the first place. The pool is actually worst than just out of square not a single measurement is right...well other the the 19' length. Here is a pic showing all the overalls and what the squares are suppose to be and what they actually are.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l3...easurement.jpg

The outside square around the pool measurements to it show how the pool fits in the square foundation

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l3...oolsquares.jpg

Just to make sure no one is blaming highbury pools, there the company that does the drawings up not the actual installing company.

There still not really getting back to me, just to say we will call you later..blah blah.

I believe they are willing to rip it out and redo it. For the sake of the couple thousand I would get off the price if i just accepted the way it is, should I just tell them to pull it out and put it in correctly, and not have to worry about future issues with it or the lost of value it will cause.

Jason

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Figstimpy

There still not really getting back to me, just to say we will call you later..blah blah.

I believe they are willing to rip it out and redo it. For the sake of the couple thousand I would get off the price if i just accepted the way it is, should I just tell them to pull it out and put it in correctly, and not have to worry about future issues with it or the lost of value it will cause.

Jason

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I would...

Thanks, thats what i am thinking after seeing how bad every measurement is out....Am i just nit picking are pools usually out like this on measurements? The vibe i am getting from them is that they are mad at me.

I am just afraid of putting the build way off schedule we are already pushing Christmas time b4 we get in.

Thanks
Jason

Thanks everyone for all your suggestions, final got them to return my call told them i wanted them to take it out and return my deposit, because I want someone else to put it back in.
And thats just what is happening, I went to their office and picked up my $13,000 deposit and their coming next week to rip it out. Now I just need to find a new installer on short notice.
Guess the word lawyer in the last email got them to stop stalling and contact me.

Thanks again, will post new pics when its done.
Looking forward to being part of this helpful community
Just keep Swimming

Jason

Sorry your experience has been difficult. Hopefully the next contractor you hire will do a great job for you. Just keep picturing floating in your new pool .................

I believe you made the correct choice!

Keep us informed and check the work on the next try :)

LOL don't worry I will be watching now...instead of assuming someone knows what there doing.

Just glad they did the right thing and didnt put up a fight