Dubosity's Thread: Lost in Cloudiness/Mustard Algae Hell

Hi, (and sorry for the REALLY long post but I'm unsure what background information is important, so I'm giving it all...or most of it anyway)
I've been reading everything on this website and must say that it is VERY affirming for me. I've had this gut feeling that too many chemicals were being recommended (to address the wrong things) by my local dealer AND by the contractor who comes occasionally to fix broken equipment. The pool's pH has always tended to run a bit high (7.6-7.8) and I've always said that it seems to "want" to be there and I don't think we should be fighting it. Until I found your site, my husband wasn't convinced that I was right and kept following the dealers recommendations to lower it. In addition, the dealer consistently reads our pH at 8.0, but I think they're over-reading the color or perhaps they're lighting is making it appear darker than what I see in natural light. Anyway...
A few weeks ago, our booster pump (for the Polaris) broke and it may have been a coincidence but after a couple of days (while waiting for the guy to replace the pump) the water became very cloudy. Online research recommended a clarifier, which we used, but it didn't help. At the time, my own testing indicated that all of the chemicals were at the right levels. (Of note: I have been using Taylor drop-testing for pH and TA but I get a weird color for chlorine testing, orange instead of the pinkish hues on the chart, so I would test chlorine with a strip - and stablizer, cuz I didn't have this test in my kit. I am now going to go out and buy a more extensive kit!) Dealer testing indicated: FC=3.0, pH=8.0, TA=150, CH=395, Stabilizer=100. We added Muriatic Acid and shocked the pool with liquid chlorine. The pool remained cloudy and we noticed that there was this silty brownish stuff settling on the steps and bottom of the pool. When brushed, it would plume up before settling back down. We thought it was just sandy silt perhaps mixed with pollen. When the pool guy came to replace the pump, he shocked it with liquid chlorine, added muriatic acid, AND used more clarifier. He never mentioned algae. The cloudiness cleared a little, over the next 3 days, but never totally cleared. We finally thought of algae because the filter, which we clean religously, now contained a TON of green silt. After thoroughly cleaning the filter, the pool actually did almost clear, but it was still a bit cloudy and the algae has started up again. Based on online research, I'm guessing that it is mustard algae and, based on dealer recommendation yesterday, we added 3 capfuls of Suncast Stop Yellow (99% sodium bromide), 2 gallons of chlorine, and muriatic acid. Dealer test results (yesterday) were: FC=5, pH=8, TA=100, CH=395, Stablizer=100. Today, the pool is still quite cloudy, though I'm not seeing the mustard algae signs. I tested the pH and it's reading off the charts! I feel like I'm on a rollercoaster ride here. How do I get this back under control??

Hello and welcome. I wish you hadn't added that sodium bromide, ugh. That may complicate things. Your CYA is really high. In fact, test kits can't differentiate higher than 100, so in all reality, your CYA may be much higher than 100.

A few questions. What type of pool is this and what is the volume? What type of filter and what size pump do you have? What have you used in the past for your source of chlorine? Anything else you have added? Be specific --- not product names, but ingredients.

We're probably going to need to let Ben help you with this one since you added the Bromide. That makes this situation different than most people have and he will have the most info about how to handle this. But, he is kinda busy today and may not get to this for a bit. So, please sit tight. I'll let him know that we need him to jump in on this thread.

In the meantime, take a look at the following link:
http://www.poolsolutions.com/tips/on...mine-pool.html

Again, welcome. We'll help you get this cleared up!

By the way --- take a look at the Amazon link in my signature line below. We recommend the Taylor K-2006 or 2006C which is the same kit only with larger bottles of the most used reagents. This kit will do everything you need it to and will make your pool maintenance easier.

Hi Dubious;

I'm on my way out the door, so I can't answer fully. But here are some quick points:

+ Do not trust your pH right now.
+ Go to Walmart or where ever and get a cheap OTO / phenol red test kit. If the OTO shows orange, your pH test is probably meaningless.
+ If Walmart has polyquat, get some ( Polyquat ) and use it. It's one of the few things that will help in your current situation, without risking making things worse.

. . . my wife is saying "you'll have to finish when we get back!"

. . . ben

That is the only type of algaecide that we recommend. Do not buy anything other than that one. Some other types will complicate things and cause foaming problems and add other unwanted ingredients.

I cannot thank you enough for responding so quickly! I can't tell you what a relief it is to feel that I have real support out there. Truly...I'm moved to tears.

Watermom, you asked a few questions:
What type of pool is this and what is the volume? Outdoor (uncovered; in-ground, gunnite), ~30K gal.
What type of filter and what size pump do you have? The filter is a pleated, papery, upright, cylindrical cartridge (not sure if this is helpful, but I do know that the contractor said recently that he thought it was probably too small for the pool) - we clean it at least once/week; pump is 230 hp and ~15 amps.
What have you used in the past for your source of chlorine? I moved in 1 year ago and during that time have only ever used trichlor tablets and occasional liquid (unstabilized) chlorine.
Anything else you have added? Be specific --- not product names, but ingredients: The only thing other than what I've already mentioned is a couple months ago, we added a TA reducer, 93.2% sodium bisulfate.

I did go out today and purchase a Taylor CYA drop-test (to add to my K-2000 kit). It tested at 100 (at least that is when the black dot became just barely visible; the point at which I could not see it at all was 120 - I'm not sure which is the correct reading.

In case it helps: Today the pool is looking blue (no green tinge at all), but is still cloudy.

Thank you, again, for all your help!! I'll definitely check out those links.

And thank you, Ben, for taking the few moments you had to respond! I'll check and see if Walmart has the Polyquat. Is the OTO/phenol red different than the phenol red reagent that comes in the Taylor test kit?

Also: I don't know if this is significant, but I've NEVER been able to get an accurate chlorine reading. I do know that right now it is really, really high (since we just added 2 gals yesterday).

Ugh. I had a bad feeling about adding the Yellow-Out and I did it anyway. When will I learn to trust my gut?

Just got back, trying to hurry through things and get users upgraded and posts moved.

But . . . Taylor pH test is fine -- however you do NEED the OTO chlorine test. It's not very precise, but it's very dependable. And, given your difficulty with chlorine readings, we need the info from a DEPENDABLE test.

Ben

Hello again,
I was able (finally) to find the OTO chlorine test. It is definitely an orange result...and it has stayed orange even after 5 minutes. (Does this mean my combined chlorine is also really high?)
I cleaned the filter this morning. It had a lot of green in it, but not quite as much as previously.
The pool looks very blue, no green tinge, and pretty clear (though still just a bit cloudy in the deep end). I do see about 6 circular spots of what I believe is mustard algae right in the middle of the shallow end; when I brushed them, they plumed up and dispersed.

I could not find Polyquat, without other ingredients (like clarifier) added. :-( I went to 3 different stores...Walmart, Lowes, and Pinch-A-Penny pool supply. Any suggestions? Do you think I still need it?

I await your response with bated breath. :-)
Thank you!!

One more question: Is it safe to swim?

Orange just means your chlorine / bromine is high -- doesn't give you any info about what kind. However, under your circumstances it's probably mostly "free".

As long as you keep it high and your clarity is increasing and the spots are getting smaller and there's no 'green' on the filter . . . you can probably just maintain chlorine levels and let the rest go.

Can you swim safely? Yes.

But . . . those levels may be hard on swimwear. So wear old swimsuits, or if your fences are high enough, you can skip them altogether. The chlorine won't hurt skin. It may be irritating to your eyes (or not) -- won't hurt to find out -- just don't open them underwater if it is.

But, go ahead and get a Taylor kit (Amazon link in sig), since you've still either got to drain to lower CYA OR run sustained high levels of chlorine to compensate for the CYA. If you haven't read the "Best Guess" page (link in sig) yet, it would be a good idea to do so.


Ben

Thank you! I did read everything I possibly could on this site...there's some REALLY great info here!
I'm concerned about keeping such a high chlorine level because I won't be able to get an accurate pH read...and because swimming nude isn't always an option.Based on what I read in another thread, I was thinking about losing the pucks and chlorinating with bleach (or non-stablized tabs), in an attempt to reduce the CYA (over time) rather than draining and refilling. Is that, in fact, an option for me?

Stopping the pucks will not lower the CYA. The only way to lower it is to exchange water. Having said that, you do need to stop using the pucks, though. Otherwise your CYA will continue to climb and you certainly don't want that. Definitely go with bleach. Like Ben said, if you don't want to do a partial drain and refill, you can just run higher than normal chlorine levels as outlined in the Best Guess chart in my signature below. You have to do one or the other. Otherwise, you're never going to get this pool under control. High CYA without high chlorine = algae blooms that never go away for good.

all righty then :-) I will definitely do a partial drain/refill, stop using the pucks, and switch to bleach. Thanks a million! (I also ordered the K2006 kit...through your link so that you guys get some of the $...you deserve it!)

Just a note about the suits --

I *think* that the bleaching effect of chlorine is ALSO reduced by high CYA, so the suits *may* be fine. Chem_Geek is more confident of this than I, and he has a better grasp on the analytical side of the chemistry than I do. I've got some niggling memories of conversations years ago with one of the pioneers of industrial bleach production that make me a little less confident.

But odds are that your suits will be OK, even if you can't go au naturel. It's just I'm not complete sure of that,yet.

Ben

I don't know if I should keep this thread going or start a new one. Forgive me if I've chosen incorrectly.
My husband is pushing back on the use of bleach AND whether to drain/refill. His arguments are 1) we spent $80 on the bucket of trichlor tabs and we have enough to last the rest of the season 2) we're currently renting the house and don't know how whether we'll end up buying it or not, and 3) it's going to cost at least $100 to partially drain and refill. I have 3 questions:

1) If I drain/refill enough to bring the CYA to 40-60 ppm, can I go on using the trichlor for the rest of the season? (I"m in N Central Florida where the season can run through the end of Oct.) Will the levels rise back that fast?

2) If I'm able to convince him to go with bleach, how do I know the amount needed for my 30K gal pool and how often it must be added? (I realize I would be maintaining a different level depending on whether we end up renewing the water.

3) If we decided not to exchange the water, so that I need to maintain about 8 ppm of chlorine, how do I reliably test the pH? Can I count on the directions in the Taylor kit (ie, dilute the sample with tap water before testing)?

Sorry to be such a pain. I did try to glean everything I could by reading through just about every post on the site, but I didn't really see anything that specifically answered these questions. Thanks for your patience.
Debra

1- each 10 ppm of chlorine from pucks gives I think 6 ppm CYA, or stabilizer; it can add up really fast, trying to maintain FC high and such- I would save the pucks and only use when leaving for several days, like vacation, and use bleach for daily maintainance
2- 1 gal, 6% bleach will add 2 ppm FC to your pool approximately. At your CYA level, you need to keep it I think 8-12 range; if you hit 12, it'll probably go down 2-3 points each day to sunlight (how much you lose increases as your level increases. at CYA 100, I think you lose 20% in full sund; but every pool is different, this is just a guess on my part!)
So 1 gal bleach a day, maybe... (I use 1.5 gal every 3-4 days with CYA 30)
3- At FC 8, you should be able to get pretty good pH readings- its above 10 that the FC really screws with the pH readings. So you monitor pH as your chlorine goes down, add acid/borax to adjust, and add your chlorine; Don't let your FC below 8, though; it's an invitation for algae blooms at your CYA...

I were in your situation, I would

#1 - Buy the Taylor kit -- you MUST have a way to test high chlorine levels
#2 - Use your tabs as you husband prefers BUT use my "Best Guess" table to set, and the Taylor kit to measure, your chlorine levels
#3 - Re-visit that decision if you end up with the house after the summer.

One caution: if you have the pool next spring, and let it get slimy this winter, you could open to an impossible situation in 2012. Stabilizer is sometimes biodgraded to ammonia, and with your high levels it would literally take 100's of gallons of bleach to get rid of the ammonia, if all the CYA were converted to ammonia.

Ben

Once again, you've come to the rescue. Thank you sooo much! I now feel I have all the info I need to come to a mutually agreeable solution.

P.S. I did purchase the K2006 kit...just waiting for it to get here. And we don't cover the pool in winter so I'll be maintaining the chlorine even then...just perhaps so high.

You still will need to maintain the chlorine at the higher level with the higher CYA--but you'll find that as the water temp drops, so will the rate at which your chlorine does. I keep my pool open year round but during the summer I add the large jug of WalMart bleach 3-4 times a week, but once the water temp gets below 60 or so, I only have to add it 1-2 times a week to keep the chlorine in the recommended range.

Janet

After much discussion, we've decided to exchange water. We drained almost 1/2 the pool and are now refilling. We just didn't want to stay in the high-CYA/high-chlorine cycle! Hopefully, this will be enough to bring the CYA down to an acceptable level.
Any wisdom you can share about the steps I need to be thinking about while it's filling and/or just after it's done? Or, shall I look at some of the threads dealing with having a "brand new pool"?

Test after you refill and post numbers. It doesn't hurt to look at some of the threads with "brand new pools" but remember, yours is going to be a different situation. Brand new fills have NO cya in them, so the procedure to get them up and running is going to be different than for you. When you post with your numbers, we'll advise you on next steps.

Gotchya. :-). Thanks!

Finally! Refill is done. :-)
New numbers (still waiting for my K2006 test to be delivered so I don't have CH yet):
OTO CL~4 (darker yellow than 3, but definitely not orange)
pH = 8
TA = 80
CYA = 50 (yea!)

I added 1.5 qt of muriatic acid to bring the pH down a bit.
I've also removed the pucks and bought plenty of bleach (Sam's Club @ a bit less than $2.25 per 182oz bottle) :-)

The pool looks VERY clear!

So...shall I just be diligent about keeping the chlorine between 3 and 6? What would be a good starting point in terms of how much bleach to add (and how often)?

In a 30K pool, each quart of 6% bleach will add 0.5ppm of chlorine. Test in the evening when the sun is off the pool. Add enough bleach to take it back up to 6ppm. Each evening, do the same. If you find that you have less than 3ppm when you test in the evening, take it to 7ppm with your doses of bleach. You don't want it to ever drop below 3ppm or you risk an algae bloom.

Keep adding muriatic acid to work to get the pH down. Good job! Keep us posted how things are going! Enjoy the pool.

Will do. Thanks (again and again) for all your help!!

The pool looks SO clear...beautiful and inviting. I can't even begin to tell you how excited we are!

2 full days and the pool remains clear and beautiful. The chlorine level is quite stable: 3 at the end of the day, 4-5 in the morning (after adding 5.5 qts of bleach in the evening). So...I just want to make sure I fully understand. I am to add 5.5 qts (one full 182-oz bottle) EVERY evening? That will equate to about $75 per month...at least during the summer months...possibly more if more bleach is required to raise the chlorine level depending on conditions. I'm assuming that less will need to be added to keep the pool at or above 3 ppm during the cooler months. Is this correct?

Also, I'm getting very different pH readings depending on which test kit I use. I'm still waiting for my K2006 kit to be delivered. In the meantime, I have 2 kits at my disposal: the Taylor K2000 kit and the OTO/Phenol Red kit (the brand name on the bottles is Porpoise) which I purchased to get a more dependable chlorine reading, per Ben's instruction. The Taylor kit shows pH at 7.2-7.4; the Porpoise kit shows pH at 8.0-8.2 (the colors on both are somewhere in between the shades given on the hue charts). Which should I trust? (Hopefully, the K2006 kit will show up soon!) Am I more concerned about this than I should be?

For pH readings in a fairly high chlorine water, you should absolutely trust the Taylor more.

Ben

Okee doke. Thanks Ben! My Taylor kit is now testing at a solid 7.4 :-) it's interesting, cuz I used to run consistently at 7.8 (constantly arguing with the pool supply clerks that my pool just "wanted" to run high. No more argument now!

P.S. I'm going to assume your answer to my other question is, "Yes, Debra, you are correct...assuming the temperature ever gets back to being lower than 95 in northern FL". :-)