CH test reads 0?

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05-06-2006 07:45 AM
cygnusecks

CH test reads 0?

While waiting for my PS234, I bought the walmart $15 drops-based test kit (under the brand "Aqua Chem" in a blue box). While opening the kit, I noticed what looked a lot like black dye or ink leaking. After opening, I discovered that it was the "Harness Solution A" (a very dark liquid) that was leaking (and staining everything it touched).

Anyhow, I figured no huge deal, so I lost 30 or 40 drops of the stuff, I still had over half the bottle left, enough to tide me over until PS234 arrives.

The first time I tested CH, it read 0. That is, I put two drops of the dark solution into my test water, and it remained clear. The instructions say a "violet color will develop if hardness is present" (as an aside, I find it funny how harness can be "present"). Anyway, I figured it meant I had low CH (even after adding 5 lbs to my 14000gal pool a few weeks ago after initial startup (pool was just finished a month ago)). So yesterday I added another 4 lbs of calcium chloride and ran pump all night. This morning, I just tested it again, and nothing! No violet color in the test tube. I was like WTF? So, I added 10 or 15 granules of calcium chloride to the test tube, swirled, and tried again. The "Hardness Solution A" didn't do a darn thing to the test water, no violet color developed. Surely putting Calcium Chloride directly into the test tube would "present" some "hardness" to the water. So is my CH test solution defective? Did it somehow get worn out when I found it leaking??

We have a new propane heater installed, and will be fired for the first time on Tuesday when the gas company fills the tank, so I want to make sure CH is at a reasonable level, as I have read that incorrect CH (too high or low) can hurt equipment, esp. heater cores.
05-06-2006 08:36 PM
waterbear

Re: CH test reads 0?

I have the same Walmart test kit (among others) and had the same problem with that test. (My indicator was NOT leaking) I found out by experimentation that the test works properly if you put about 8-10 drops of the indicator in the water instead of just 2 and have verified the results by checking it against my Tayor test kit and it was pretty close. (the Walmart kit has an accuracy of 50 ppm while the Talyor kit has an accuracy of 10 ppm)

Hope this helps.
05-06-2006 09:35 PM
cygnusecks

Re: CH test reads 0?

Waterbear, that definitely helps. I'll give it a shot tomorrow with 8 drops and see what it reads. I just hope I didn't make the water too hard by believing the walmart kit.
05-06-2006 10:08 PM
PoolDoc

Re: CH test reads 0?

Can y'all photograph that kit, and post the photograph?

In some parts of the country, the kit Walmart sells *is* a relabeled Taylor, often under the HTH brand. I'm not sure what you've got there, but it's not Taylor. With two kits from different areas, odds are that the kit is 'defective from the factory'.

People need to be warned against it, if this is more than just a coincidence affecting two kits.

Ben

PS: It would be great if we could ID it, get everyone to test their test, and then get everyone with a bad one to take it back. Walmart's inventory control system would almost instantly flag it as a quality control problem, to be 'discussed' with the manufacturer. And trust me, you do NOT want to be having that conversation with Walmart, if you are a manufacturer.
05-07-2006 08:14 AM
Tootie

Re: CH test reads 0?

Ok, I hope this works!!!!

Mine seems to be working,after 2 drops it turns a violet color..

Hope This helps

http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/attachm...9&d=1147002658
05-07-2006 12:17 PM
waterbear

2 Attachment(s)

Re: CH test reads 0?

Here are the pics of my kit. Intersting to note that I am in St. Augustine, Fl and cygnusecks is about 2 hours away in Orlando, Fl! Might be a regionally distributed kit. I think the quality control might not be very good. The first one I got had a defective Cl/pH comparator...the color bars had come unattached on the Cl side and had moved out of position and the tube was cracked so I returned it for the one I have now. Also, the Ch test is different than Taylor's. There are only 2 reagents...indicator and titrant, no calcium buffer (reagent #1 in Taylor kit)
Attachment 121

Attachment 122
05-07-2006 12:34 PM
Watermom

Re: CH test reads 0?

When I clicked on Tootie's link posted above, I got an error message.
05-07-2006 12:43 PM
Tootie

Re: CH test reads 0?

I don't know what happend????

But I'll try again

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...l/100_1049.jpg
05-07-2006 07:06 PM
sisie5

Re: CH test reads 0?

i bought the same kit last year,however I lost the instruction does anyone knwo where I can get these.I call the 1-800 number and they sent me everything but the instructions.for free....well At least I dont need to buy refills.they will send one every yr.
05-07-2006 08:27 PM
cygnusecks

Re: CH test reads 0?

Tootie & Waterbear, yes, that is the exact same kit I bought in Orlando last week. According to the kit, I have balanced everything but the CH. I think the CH test in that kit is bogus. Do all of your kits tell you to put 2 drops of the "Hardness Solution A" in, and watch for a violet color to develop?

I'm gonna leave my CH alone for the time being until I get my PS234.
05-07-2006 08:31 PM
waterbear

Re: CH test reads 0?

Yes, and it does not work. Like I said before I was playing around with it and found that it worked with about 8-10 drops of the indicator and I cross checked the results with the Taylor kit I have a few times and it is pretty close that way.
05-08-2006 09:30 AM
Tootie

Re: CH test reads 0?

I' am very puzzled,when I did the test a few day's ago,it did just what it supposed too.After reading the post again this morning I did another test,and wouldn't you know, it never turned violet?????
We had a pretty good temperature drop and my water is only in the 40's,compare to the other day when it was in the 70's...
Could that be a problem with it???I' am no Expert,and really have a hard enough Time to understand all the other stuff going on in the pool...But now I' am very confuzzeld...

Ok,I had to check again before I post,and no it did not work,just like Waterbear said it took me 9 drops,and then it turned in more like a black grayish color????

@Sisie5,I have the Instructions.....

I will try to scan and post them

Margit
05-08-2006 10:03 AM
cygnusecks

Re: CH test reads 0?

Well I'm also quite confused. I just re-did the test, and it only took 2 drops to turn the violet color. And then it too 10 drops to make it blue, which means my CH is 500ppm. Hmmm.. The only difference is that the pump hasn't kicked on today, so the water has sat motionless in the pool for about 13 hours. Could that alter the tests in any way?

Is 500ppm a bad thing? My TA is 60.
05-08-2006 01:15 PM
prh129

Re: CH test reads 0?

I don't have my kit with me so I can't post a photo, but the one I got at Walmart was an HTH (5-way I believe) test kit, not the Aqua Chem shown above. I'm also pretty sure I had to add 5 drops of the blue reagent for hardness. My pool sample did not turn blue but rather a yellow color and after a lot of drops of the second reagent it slowly turned green then sort-of blue. I re-tested on my tap water (which was not used to fill the pool) and it turned blue right away. I received the PS234 kit and that hardness test started with a third reagent - with the PS234 the hardness test worked on the pool water as expected and the hardness was pretty low. It looks like in my case there was something in the water that caused a problem with the 2-reagent test but not with the 3-reagent test (that's probably why the third reagent was added) :rolleyes:

The Cl/pH tester in the HTH kit looks the same as the one in the PS234 kit.

Peter
05-08-2006 01:48 PM
PoolDoc

Re: CH test reads 0?
Quote:

Originally Posted by prh129

. . . but the one I got at Walmart was an HTH (5-way I believe) test kit, not the Aqua Chem shown above. I'm also pretty sure I had to add 5 drops of the blue reagent for hardness. My pool sample did not turn blue but rather a yellow color and after a lot of drops of the second reagent it slowly turned green then sort-of blue.

That's the kit made by Taylor. The testblock in the OTO version *IS* the same as the one in the PS234, and the calcium reagents are the same, as well. 5 drops is the normal quantity of indicator dye for the calcium test.

But, there are (or should be) THREE reagents in that test:
1. a buffer, used first
2. an indicator dye, used second
3. the test reagent, used third. These are the drops that need to be counted carefully.
If you tried to do the test, using the dye first, and the test reagent second, you would get wierd results. But, that said, I've never heard of a yellow to blue transition on the calcium test. That transition DOES occur, on the alkalinity test, with VERY high levels of chlorine, or on PHMB pool with high levels of peroxide.

Ben
"PoolDoc"
05-08-2006 01:50 PM
waterbear

Re: CH test reads 0?

Hmmm.....just repeated the test myself and then checked it against my Taylor kit and a test strip. Here is how it went:
Aquachem kit
added 2 drops and water turned yellow( as it has in the past with 2 drops). Continued adding drops until it turned violet red...took 14 drops.
titrated and got 350 ppm (7th drop turned blue, 8th drop no change).
repeated test with 20 drops of indicator and got between 300-350 ppm (6 drops changed to blue but 7th drop made it a bit deeper, 8th drop no change)

Taylor kit...got 200 ppm which is what I believe it should be based on what it was last test and the amount of calcium chloride I just added to the pool recently. (Yes, I know you don't need calcium in a fiberglass pool but my fill water has 0 ppm calcium hardness and I have a heater)

tested with a strip which tests for TOTAL hardness (calcium and magnesium hardness) and got a bit higher than 250 pppm total hardness (strip color chart goes from 250 ppm to 1000 ppm...not much accuracy here)

Now I wonder if the Aquachem kit might be testing for total hardness and not calcium hardness. The Taylor test for total hardness is a 2 reagent test. (indicator and titrant)

Also, the last time I tried this (my CH level was at 140 with the Taylor) it only took 8-10 drops of the indicator to get a violet red color and the results were much closer to the Taylor test...I assumed it was the difference in accuracy of 10 ppm for the Taylor and 50 ppn for the Aquachem.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
05-08-2006 02:40 PM
PoolDoc

Re: CH test reads 0?

Quote:

Originally Posted by prh129

It looks like in my case there was something in the water that caused a problem with the 2-reagent test but not with the 3-reagent test (that's probably why the third reagent was added)

You win the prize!

I was careless, and didn't notice on my quick read through earlier. The '2-reagent' system combines the buffer and the indicator. But, on pools with lower pH, and relatively high alkalinity, there's not enough buffer in the indicator. That's why extra drops of indicator -- which add extra drops of buffer -- works, when the 'normal' number of drops don't.

(The pH of the sample has to be pretty high, for the indicator to work, and the 'buffer' tries to move the pH up high enough to work. But, pools with high alkalinity are resistant to pH change, thus the problem.)

Ben
05-08-2006 02:47 PM
waterbear

Re: CH test reads 0?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoolDoc

You win the prize!

I was careless, and didn't notice on my quick read through earlier. The '2-reagent' system combines the buffer and the indicator. But, on pools with lower pH, and relatively high alkalinity, there's not enough buffer in the indicator. That's why extra drops of indicator -- which add extra drops of buffer -- works, when the 'normal' number of drops don't.

(The pH of the sample has to be pretty high, for the indicator to work, and the 'buffer' tries to move the pH up high enough to work. But, pools with high alkalinity are resistant to pH change, thus the problem.)

Ben

So this could also explain my last test results. If the pH is not brough up high enough then the interfering magnesium would NOT precipitate out (or not completely) and the titration would show more of a total hardness reading instead of a true calcium hardness reading! (Current ALK at 110 ppm and pH at 7.4) When I did the experiements previously my pH was at 7.8-7.9, ALK 110. My ALK never seems to change much unless I really lower the pH and airate.

Bottom line, IMHO, is that the test in the Aquachem kit is not reliable for CH!
05-08-2006 04:30 PM
prh129

Re: CH test reads 0?

At the time I did the HTH hardness test with the weird results (yellow solution to faint green), my pH was low and so was my alkalinity. (I did the test twice with the same result both times - as I swirled the blue reagent the wisps turned red before disappearing.) The numbers at the time were:
pH - 7.0
TCL - 2.5
ALK - 30 ppm

I have since brought the pH up (7.3) and the alkalinity up (90) also. I will repeat the HTH test tonight and see if it still acts weird.

Peter
05-08-2006 10:41 PM
prh129

Re: CH test reads 0?

I re-tested with the HTH kit and got the same weird result - the sample had a faint yellow tint after the 5 drops of hardness indicator (which is listed as 23% isopropanol and 77% Triethanolamine).

I tested with the PS234 and after 20 drops of cal 1 and 5 drops of cal 2, the sample was pink. After two drops of cal 3 the sample turned blue. This makes sense and is about what I would expect.

I then started over with 20 drops of cal 1, then 5 drops of the HTH indicator and the sample turned pink although deeper than with cal 2. I then tried the HTH titrant and after 10 drops it was more of a greyish color but nowhere near the blue from the last test. I repeated this test using cal 3 as the titrant this time and got the same grey result so it is clearly the HTH hardness indicator that is not working with my water for some reason.

I also tested pH (7.3) and alkality (90) on the sample.
05-09-2006 03:44 AM
waterbear

Re: CH test reads 0?

Quote:

Originally Posted by prh129

I re-tested with the HTH kit and got the same weird result - the sample had a faint yellow tint after the 5 drops of hardness indicator (which is listed as 23% isopropanol and 77% Triethanolamine).

warning...chemisty nerd info follows but it might help explain what is happening
The Isopropal alcohol is to dissolve the indicator dye (there are a few different ones used to test for hardness, some of the more commen ones are eriochrome black T and calcon (eriochrome black B), there are others also) and the triethanolamine is used to raise and buffer pH, it is basically just ammonia with alcohol attached to it. The reason that they are listed as ingredients is that they are the actual "toxic" substances in the indicator solution.

The Taylor test (and Ben's) uses sodium hydroxide to raise and buffer the pH to about 12 and cause any magnesium in the sample to preciptate out as magnesium hydroxide so the titration will just show the calcium in the sample. This is added before the indicator solution and is a much stronger base than triethanolame.

A test for total hardness (both calcium and magnesium) is usually perfomed at a pH of 10 so the magnesium does not precitipate out and both are measured. Below ph 10 the test does not work properly.

The same indicator dyes are basically used for either test with some better at one than the other. Like I said, there are several dyes that can be used as indicators. Eriochrome black T and calcon both change from wine red to blue endpoints. Eriochrome black T is more of a blue grey at endpoint such as the color seen in the 2 reagent tests. This might possibly be the indicator used in the 2 reagent tests.

The assumption I am making from this about the 2 reagent kits (and I might be wrong) is that the indicator/buffer might or might not get the pH high enough to remove the magnesium interference, or only partially remove it. The pH and alkalinity of the water being tested will have an effect on just how high the pH can be raised (and how much interferance can be removed or whether the test works at all). If the pH is not in the proper range (10 for total hardness, 12 for calcium hardness) then the indicator does not develop the proper color (which might explain the yellow color that has been observed by myself and others since these dyes are also pH indicators).

Therefore it seems that the results, when obtainable, might be giving total hardness, calcium hardness, or somewhere in between. Therefore, it seems that the 2 reagent test is NOT a reliable test for calcium hardness.

This is just my attempt to explain the results of what has been happening with the 2 reagent test kits and the preceding two paragraphs (in blue) are supposition on my part.