Green Fog in Pool - new user/never posted anywhere....

Good afternoon,

I saw your blog/posts and wanted to solicit your insight as the pool store that I purchased my chemicals from is stumped on what is going on in my pool. We have been fighting a green fog in the 40' x 16', 8' deep pool for three to four weeks.

Test results via aquacheck test strip this afternoon:

hardness = 250
tot chlorine = 3
free chlorine = 0-1
pH=7.2-7.8
alk=180
cyn=30-50

Currently, we chlorinate with a chlorine "frog" floating in the pool with 9 tablets in it. It has been full constantly since the following endeavor started:

I went to XXXXX's pools three weeks ago and asked them to give me whatever is needed to clean the green from my pool. They have tested the water at each step to make sure the balance was correct and had me make adjustments to alkalinity and pH to make sure I was in the envelope etc.. First, they gave me the green to clean product and I followed the directions for application and then 3 shock treatments. It did not work.

We started again and did the same thing, Green to Clean and shock. This time the green left and I had a cloud - however, I could not vacuum the day the green left as I had to fly out to a meeting. The next day I came back and it was green again. I replaced my cartrige as I wanted to rule that out as part of the problem.

We did another treatment of green to clean and shock and they told me to use their XXXXXXXX water clarifier after the shock. The green and fog did not leave.

Then they gave me "Clear and Perfect" clarifier (by natural chemistry) - that did not work. Then they gave me "Metal Free" as they thought it may be metals causing the problems.

The pool was still green and a fog was in the water. I have spent hours vacuuming and cleaning the cartridge...

Then they gave me Coral Seas' "Yellow Out" as it is supposedly stronger than the green to clean and told me to shock again and then use the Ultra bright. With this event, the green subsided a little and the clarity increased in the shallow end. However, there is a cloud from 3' down and the vacuum is not visible. I have running just the bottom drain and the cloud is still there. The water coming out from the filter appears to have suspended material in it - a cloud.

My guess is that I have a colloid issue with an overlapping residual algie issue.

I do not want to keep dumping the clarifier in as I suspect that is now contributing to the problem.

Please let me know what you can - and what to do to drop the polymer out.

Thank you,

Len

Gulf Breeze FL

Wow.

As CarlD (one of my moderators) will say once he sees this, "You've been PoolStored!"

Do this:

Stay OUT of the store. I mean it. Do NOT take ANY more advice from them.
Do NOT put anything else from there into your pool, and especially, not any more ammonia based algae treatments (Green to Clean, Yellow OUT).
Do NOT put any more algicides, clarifiers, metal removers or the like in your pool.
Do NOT let anyone sell you a phosphate remover.
Do NOT try to mix and match pool store advice with PoolForum advice! Pick one, or the other.

But . . .

DO run your pump 24/7
DO turn off your heater, if you have one.
DO add 6 boxes of 20 Mule Team borax (NOT: Boraxo soap!!!!) to your skimmer SLOWLY -- do not let it choke the skimmer. (This may, or may not, cause some additional cloudiness. But that will be long gone before your other issues are cleaned up!)

And . . .

DO put 10 gallons of 6% household bleach in your pool tomorrow PM, about 2 hours before sunset. (No typo: 10 gallons of generic 6% sodium hypochorite bleach -- don't splatter your clothes!)
DO NOT add any other chemicals!!!
DO test your chlorine & pH levels, as best you can, just before dark.
DO test your chlorine & pH AGAIN in the AM, and again Tuesday PM.
DO post again, adding the test results from above on Tuesday PM or Wed AM
DO include info on what sort of filter and circulation system you have.
DO list any OTHER chemicals you've used in the last 2 months.
DO list your stabilizer level LAST FALL, if you know what it was.

Good luck!

Ben / PoolDoc

Ben,
Thank you for assisting with this situation. I followed your advice (except I could only get 5 boxes of Mule team) and tests taken with color strips prior to shock (I did order the kit you recommended) were Hardness = 500, Tot Chl = 1-3, free Chl = 0, pH = 8.4 +, tot alk = 240 Cyn=100. I vacuumed last night and the pool is a light green color at this time. This morning I tested and results were Hardness = 500, Tot Chl = 5-10, free Chl = 10, pH = 8.4 +, tot alk = 240 Cyn=150-200.

I cleaned the filter this am. It was only moderately stained.

Please let me know the next step. Do I continue with second shock? More Mule team Borax?

Thank you,
Len

You can hold off on the 2nd shock for now -- keep testing 2x per day, but don't add any more chlorine so long as levels are above 10 ppm. BTW, your pH test may, or may not, be correct. High chlorine, in the absence of extremely high CYA, causes phenol red (the pH test indicator) to read 'high'. (Chem_Geek, do you know whether the effect is the same when CYA is this high?)

But, meanwhile we need to get a little better idea about your CYA levels.

Steal one of your wife's measuring cups and a clean container. Put one cup full of pool water in the container, and then add 3 cups full of tap water. Mix, and test. See what your CYA level is, and report that here.

Ben

High FC, mostly above 10 ppm, will affect the pH test regardless of the CYA level. It's about the chlorine capacity or quantity, not its active strength, since excessive FC essentially uses up the chlorine neutralizers that are in the pH tests and above that point they start to oxidize one of the two dyes in the pH test (and do so rather quickly, even with CYA present).

Sorry for the late post, 4 kids with one more in the oven are a challenge....

Test this evening - hardness is 100, tot chl = 0.5, free chl = 0.5-0, pH 7.2-7.8, tot alk = 240, cyn = 30-50.

Test by prescribed dilution method - hardness is 100, tot chl = 0.0, free chl = 0, pH 7.2-7.8, tot alk = 80, cyn = 0-30. Used purified water rather than chlorinated tap water...

Pool is still light green. I am headed to wall mart to buy another 10 gallons.... email me if you can with recommendations if you are still on line...

Thank you,
Len

Actually, it looks like adding a 2nd dose of bleach may well take you where you want to go.

There's enough variation in your test results, so that I don't really want to make recommendations beyond that. So just stick with the chlorine, till things are cleared up. Do NOT let the chlorine stay low -- if you can purchase enough bleach for a third dose, do so. Just put it in a cool place so it will 'keep' till you are ready to use it.

Post again when you've got more results.

PoolDoc

Good Morning...,

Test results this am:

hard = 500

tot chl = 5-10
free chl = 10
pH=8.4+
alk = 240
cyn = 100=150

I will vacuum the debris up later and take another test.

Thanks for your advice, we seem to progressing as the color is getting bluer and it appears to be clearing up.

Pool color is beginning to be a light blue - should I continue to add the Borax? Do I hit it with another 10 gallons of bleach? I still cannot see the bottom in the 8' deep section. I can see the bottom in the 3' area.

Thanks

Hi Len;

I'd hold off on more borax, but I would re-dose with chlorine each time you find the level goes below 5 ppm. You can use 5 gallon doses instead of 10, but do try to add close to sunset.

To go further, we'll need better test information. Some of your results are all over the place, and I can't tell what's going. If possible, you should get a Taylor K-2006. You can get one at Amazon in either the standard or the "C" version, which has 3x the reagents at 1.5x the price. Here are links:

K-2006
K-2006-C

Once you get them, we can start working on the remaining issues.

Ben

PS. The picture of the 2006-C is wrong, but I've checked with Amato Industry's online sales manager and they ARE shipping 2006-C's.

PPS. These links are tied to my "Amazon Affiliate" account, so if you purchase via those links I get a couple of $'s.

Ben,

I purchased a Taylor Service Complete Pool Water Test Kit K-2006C. I wish you had mentioned your commission...
I should have it by Friday - or latest on Monday...

Test results this evening:

hard = 500
Tot chl = 1
Free chl = 0.5 to 1
pH is above 8.4
tot alk is above 240
cyn is between 100 and 150

I will add chlorine in a few mins. What do you recommend to lower alk and pH?

Thanks,
Len

Here's the link for how to lower the pH and alk, but I'm thinking Ben will recommend that you finish the shocking process first, because high levels of chlorine will cause your pH to read falsely high..... http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/lowe...p-by-step.html

Janet

Janet,
Thank you.

Test results this morning:

Hard = 250
Tot Chl = 10

Water is clearing up. Test results this morning:

Hard = 250
Tot Chl = 10
Free Chl = 10
pH = 8.4
Akl = 240
Cyn = 150

Regarding the 12 pounds of green to clean and 4 pounds of yellow-out the pool store directed me to use - are there any residual chemicals left in my pool water? Same question for the polymer clarifiers - what has happened to those chemicals? How do I remove these chemicals?

I have very young children - how do I ensure the water is safe? Is there a specific series of tests that can be done to make sure?

Thank you.

I'll let the chemists in the group chime in, but my thinking is that the chlorine has broken down the other chemicals that you've put in....

Janet

The polymeric clarifier would have been caught in the filter and then removed by backwashing (since it sounds like you've got a sand filter). That would have also removed most negatively charged particulate matter including some algae. Chlorine would have fully oxidized ammonia, urea, and some other nitrogenous compounds into nitrogen gas and carbon dioxide that will have mostly outgassed. Some other organic compounds will get partially oxidized and remain dissolved in the water. Some others are volatile and would outgas. Many won't react with chlorine and will either remain dissolved (including salts) or will be insoluble so will either form scum at the surface or will have been handled by the clarifier.

The thing to remember is that though algae is unsightly, it is not itself a health hazard (unless there is so much that you can't see the deep end or that it is on surfaces and is slippery). The result of clearing the water doesn't result in toxic compounds remaining. The vast majority are innocuous and in small quantities. There are some disinfection by-products from chlorine oxidation, but the amounts are relatively small and in an outdoor residential pool exposed to UV from sunlight it tends to be minimal.

As for the Green to Clean and Yellow Out, these are sodium bromide products so have essentially turned your pool into a bromine pool. Over time, bromine will slowly outgas from the pool and some brominated organics may get caught in the filter and backwashed, but given how much you've added to the pool that could take quite some time (i.e. years). So when you add chlorine to the pool, it is getting used up converting bromide to bromine -- hence, you've really got a bromine pool right now. 14 pounds of sodium bromide (assuming these products are pure sodium bromide) in 26,000 gallons (40' x 16' x 5.5' average depth) is 64 ppm bromide so not a small amount. That's the worst part of the advice that you were given from the pool store. Now bromine is a sanitizer like chlorine, but it is not protected from breakdown in sunlight so you may find that your chlorine usage goes up on sunny days compared to before. Bromine also smells a bit different than chlorine (actually, I'm referring to bromamine smelling different than chloramines since that's what you smell when bromine or chlorine react with the ammonia from your sweat from your skin).

So your pool is safe, but is no longer a chlorine pool -- it's a bromine pool.

Wife and kids want to go swimming in the pool.

Test results are as follows:

h = 250
tot chl = 1
free chl = o
pH = 8.4
alk = 240
cyn = 150

Is it safe to swim? Or what can I do immediately to modify values to allow swimming.... Please let me know as the kids are chomping at the bit as the pool looks ok

Your pH is too high so you need to add acid to lower it. Your FC is too low so you need to add chlorine to raise it. You can use The Pool Calculator to figure out dosages though pH adjustment amounts are approximate so you'll add and retest. Your chlorine went away very quickly so you may still be killing off algae, but if you don't stay on top of the chlorine level then algae can come back. Shocking is not a one-time process.

My kids were in the pool over the past few days and the algie has come back and it is turning slightly cloudy....

The test kit arrived and the results are below. Chlorine floater 3" tab dispenser was down to two tabs.... I have since filled.

If you could give me some advise on the next step I would appreciate it. I am adding 5 gallons of 6% bleach at this time..

Thanks,
Len

"0" Free Chlorine
0.4 Chl
7.6-7.8 pH
150 Tot Alk.
370 Calc Hardness
75 = Cyn

After putting in the bleach last night, the pool is now very green and very cloudy. Any suggestions?

I think you need to get your Free Chlorine level up to 20ppm and keep it there, given a CYA (Cyanuric Acid) level of 75ppm.
I would not use floaters, any kind of chlorine tablets or chlorine powder at all. Your CYA is high and your Calcium, while in the safe range, is toward the high end. Your best bet is bleach or liquid chlorine. I'm guessing your pool is 35,000 to 40,000 gallons (40'*16'*8'= 5120 cubic feet. 7.48 gal/cubic foot = 38297.6 gallons). You'll need 12 or 13 gallons of 6% bleach to get there, or about 6 gallons of 12.5% liquid chlorine. Then you have to keep it at that level, testing and adding 2 to 3 times a day until it's clear.

But if you don't do it your pool won't clear.

(if you figure 40,000 gallons, it takes 4 gallons of 6% to raise your FC by 6ppm)

Carld

Follow Carl's advice and get your chlorine up to shock level (20 ppm for CYA that high) and hold it there until it clears up, as he said. However, once you get it cleared up and clean again, with your CYA that high, you need to not let your chlorine EVER get below 5 ppm, and I would keep it up closer to 7, just to give yourself some wiggle room. If you let it go below the 5 ppm, you're inviting the algae in....

I would also stop using the pucks in the floater--they are continuing to raise your CYA level, and you're going to have to keep upping your chlorine levels to compensate, if you want your pool to stay clear......

Janet

You'll notice that Janet's advice complements mine and others.