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I am sorry about that. Expensive too. I know it's no consolation but it didn't get this way quickly either. The one pool tool that's as important as a K-2006 is POPP (Pool Owner Patience and Persistence).
Keep it up, it sounds like you are making headway. :)
Can you even imagine how much MaryJo would have spent at the pool store so far had she not found the forum????
I really do appreciate a "good process", which is why I am so grateful I found the forum when I did. Ironically I do not swim (or even like water) so the process is not messing with my patience at all- it's the husband and kids who are used to swimming every single day, morning noon and night who are!
So- last night's results continue to be good… I'm almost ready to be cautiously optimistic.
tested @ 11:00pm CL=36 CC=0.5
added 1/2 jug of bleach
re-tested @ 12:30am FC=36 CC=1
this morning tested @ 7:00 FC=33 CC=1
It has been raining on and off throughout the night- left the pool open b/c I was up most of the night anyway and had planned on filling it today with the hose. After about an inch of rain (which is what I needed to add), I closed the cover.
Looks good. If the pool is clear, I'd watch it for a day to see that the FC doesn't drop much (it will drop some, especially during the day). You can try adding two drops of R-0007 to your sample before testing pH (R-0007 is the chlorine neutralizer you use with T/A testing) Get a rough idea of it.
yes, I will continue to test and add bleach as needed. I tested pH today, and even with adding 2 drops of R-007, the pH was very high- 7.8 - 8.0 range.
Super, sounds like the chlorine demand is subsiding. Keep it up - you're doing great.
Let's wait to finish the shock before moving the pH - some by-products of the shock are easier to live with when pH is on the high side.
Agreed.
Only 3ppm loss last night. Good progress!
yesterday evening's test results:
tested @ 10:15pm FC=34 CC=1.0
this morning tested@ 7:00am FC=33 CC=1.0
getting better…
i had a question about testing with diluted water: I am currently testing using 5:1 ratio (distilled/pool). Is this OK or would a smaller ratio ( i.e. 3:1) give me more accurate results?
Hey, hey! Only 1ppm loss! Getting better!
As for diluting, they're your reagents and history has shown you aren't afraid to use them to excess ;) If you want more accuracy and don't mind using more reagent, I would suggest just doing it for the overnight testing.
Good job! You have learned a ton!
I'm sorry if this should be obvious, but, for which tests are you using the dilution method?
I've been using dilution testing for FC/CC and CYA.
You are diluting the sample for the FAS-DPD test? If so, please don't dilute it more than 1:1. Yes, it will take alot of R-0871 - you might want to order a 2oz bottle. You are getting close to the end and I'm concerned that a 5:1 dilution might be skewing your measurments.
Why would you use dilution for the FAS-DPD test (head scratch) ?
Merely fill to the 5ml line (or halfway to the 10ml line if you don't have a 5ml line) and count 1 drop = 1ppm of FC.
@CarlD: I have a cylinder I use for testing that has a 5ml line (I suspect you do too) from a different kit. The K2006 comparator starts at 10ml.
@mary jo: Perhaps you have another vessel that can measure 5ml. The dose cups from children's medicine comes to mind.
You intended those instructions for the weekend only (when she was out of 0871).Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDave
Also, I believe she bought the 16oz bottle so she should be good even with the 10ml sample.
If not, Mary Jo, I still have an extra 2oz bottle of 0871 if you need it. I am leaving for VA Saturday morning so you would need to let me know today.
Oh you must think I'm daft! Yes, FBU got it right: I misunderstood the weekend instructions (diluting at 5:1) to mean continue testing this way until almost done, and since I was going through 50-60+ drops at a time, testing 4-5x a day it made sense….until last night when it occurred to me the exact ppm's lost were getting more critical. That's why I asked about it this morning….I also have been testing each sample more than once to make sure I didn't mis-measure or mis-count.
Good thing I got the 16oz bottle!
From here out I will test at 1:1. I'll post results tomorrow.
I'm sorry about the confusion!
I don't think you're daft at all. It's on me that I told you to dilute 5:1 and didn't correct that when you received the titrating reagent. I apologize.
The good news is that it appears that a lot of the chlorine demand has been met.
Get a good set of readings for overnight chlorine loss and let's figure out where to go from there.
BigDave, you are too kind….and most likely a very patient person.
Well, today's results are good and bad I think:
tested last night using 5ml sample. 1 drop = 1ppm
tested @ 11:45pm FC=36 CC=3
tested this morning @ 7:00 FC=35 CC=3
The chlorine loss sounds good, right?
The CC reading of 3 doesn't sound good! (altho I suspect, ahem, it was always testing at around 3 since I failed to multiply the drops added for CC by 6 when I was using a diluted sample…. This one's definitely on me).
So I'm not sure if that changes anything in our approach to getting the pool back in sync.
Good, keep the shock going. With the 5ml sample test the error is 1ppm so 3ppm is still significant. I don't recall if you have a cover but if you do, leave it open during the day.
OK- overnight test results are not so good for some reason.
I decided to use the 10ml sample since I now have enough product.
tested last night @ 11:00 FC=35 CC=3
tested this morning @ 7:15 FC=30 CC=3
Is a hiccup like this common? I repeated this morning's test 3 times to be sure.
Dropping from 33 to 30 overnight? Perfectly normal! when you are super-shocking it's harder to maintain the FC...and you only dropped 9%. I wouldn't worry about that at all.
What I'm wondering is why your CC is so high and not dropping with FC > 30.
PS: I'd run the FAS-DPD test using the 5ml line instead of the ten. If you don't have that line you can either guess where it is or use a kid's med cup that comes with cough medicine with a 5 ml line. Each drop then is 1 full ppm rather than .5. It will take less time to do the test, use half the R-0871, and certainly be accurate enough at those high FC levels.
I pretty much agree with CarlD, the FC loss is not such a big deal but the CC consistent at 3ppm.
Two questions:
How much bleach did you use yesterday?
Is there any chance that a bromine product has been put in the pool.
OK- it was actually a 5ppm drop (35 down to 30). Did I wait too long to take the morning test? (should I test before sunrise ~ 6:00?) Yesterday is was overcast and rainy all day. This morning it's sunny.
I added 1 1/2 jugs yesterday. Yesterday morning's initial reading was 35 so I didn't need to add much to keep it at 30. I added the last jug @ 9:00 and tested at 11:00 and got 35.
Not sure what bromine is, but the only chemicals ever put into my pool this season: pH up (about 15 lbs), phos-free (1.4L) and 3" chlorine tablets for the inline chlorinator.
It's still not a big change--if it dropped from 35 to 20 or 15 we'd be concerned, but from 35 to 30? That's OK.
Bromine is an alternate sanitizer to chlorine. It's more expensive, has a number of drawbacks, but is much more resistant to heat in hot tubs. It also doesn't "play well" with chlorine.
pH Up! is nothing more than Sodium Carbonate, aka Washing Soda, just overpriced.
3" chlorine tablets are Tri-chlor tablets--if they are 99% they are good. But for every 10ppm of chlorine they add, they add 6ppm of CYA/Stabilizer, plus push pH down.
Not sure what's in the Phos-Free, but I doubt there's any bromine in it.
Combined Chloramines can be all sorts of chloramines, not just the one bromine mixed with chlorine produces (monchloramine?) All kinds of things can be metabolized to form them, but guessing which one(s) caused the CC=3 is beyond me.
1-1/2 jugs of 8.25% in 15,000 gallons is a daily chlorine demand of about 8ppm which still seems high to me.
I asked about bromine because bromine can create a permanently high chlorine demand.
I will put together another summary of this thread later today and ask PoolDoc or Richard to take a look.
For now, I'd maintain shock.
Just checking in on this thread; obviously some good progress has been made.
But I have a couple of suggestions.
1. Unless you know of some reason not to do so, remove the Nature2 cartridge, even though it's old. ANY cartridge or filter media is a potential reservoir of accumulated oxidizable 'goo'.
2. For the same reason, clean the filter cartridges. Be sure to do it correctly. Spraying them off (with the hose; NOT with a pressure washer!!) is a good intermediate cleaning, but a full cleaning, which should remove any oxidizable 'goo' that could create chlorine demand takes more. See http://pool9.net/cart-clean/
3. It wasn't clear to me whether you ever inspected light niches or other recessed or hidden areas in the pool. If there are any such recesses, and if it's at all possible, inspect them. It does happen that such locations will fill completely with live 'slime'. Physical cleaning is required; otherwise, the slime will just 'recover' when chlorine levels drop.
Good luck!
WOW- just checking in to ask about the Nature2 and cleaning the light niche…
to reply to your suggestions:
1. Nature2 cartridge: to be clear- remove old cartridge and clean the empty vessel? No way to remove the whole unit huh?
2. New Pentair filters installed a few weeks ago. Initial pressure set at 10, it is now 12. Strainer basket is clean and no debris.
3. My husband is home for the day: Should he clean the niches today or wait and see for a few more days? Don't think there are any other hidden areas: built-in ladder, built-in stairs, skimmers look clean, never much in them at all.
is there a youtube vid that shows the process of cleaning a niche (besides turning off the circuit breakers)!
I also took a look in the auto pool cover "pit". Removed the incredibly heavy concrete cover pads to find just a little wet/dry debris (mostly leaf pods). No funky smell or dead animals... The pit only goes down about 8" before you hit gravel backfill. Poured and wiped the cover with diluted bleach water as is was rolling up and unrolling.
the lawn guys were here and i closes the cover to see if any grass/debris was getting onto the cover. I don't think it is: the pool's elevation is much higher than the grass area: 5' drop on one end (foundation wall) and 45 degree slope to grass on the other.
btw: How do you remove and clean the lights when the FC is 35? You can't safely go into the pool at that level, right?
35 ppm is not dangerous to people at all. With a CYA level = 150 ppm, 35 ppm FC is LESS aggressive than pool water that has 1 ppm FC and no CYA! (There is a difference -- 1 ppm FC will be used up rapidly by swimmers in the water; 35 pp will not. The 'extra' held by the CYA will continuously replace the 'active' chlorine as it gets used up).
But, it *may* be 'dangerous' to some swim suits, so wear an old one. It will also be somewhat irritating to your eyes, but, when trying to open the light niche, it would be best to use goggles or a mask regardless of chlorine level. In most cases, there's a single screw that needs to be removed to allow the light niche to 'flop' out.
This video, from Inyo pools, comes closest to showing what's involved. Obviously, you don't need to focus on the bits about actually replacing the bulb or lamp.
OK- watched the video. Seems like it's something I need to do. I'm assuming that any slime or goo I find will have a color? Meaning that if the niche is not covered with visible goo, than I just need to wipe it down and re-assemble?
Good to know that high FC levels won't melt your skin off or anything. I've got an active imagination where chemicals are involved….
Yesterday @ 5:00 pm my husband cleaned the light niches: One niche and light fixture perfectly clean. The other had a very small amount of brown stuff in niche and on fixture- wiped w/ a white cloth, let everything soak for 20 minutes before my husband had to leave town. I then scrubbed the skimmers again. Don't know if it's important but for first time ever I noticed a thin ring of solid black at the very top of the water line in both skimmers. It looks and feels like black grease, but wiped off w/ chlorine and cloth. hope this does something…anything else to clean or check?
overnight numbers:
last night - tested @10:00pm FC=33 CC=3
this morning - tested @7:00 FC=33 CC=3
How much bleach did you use yesterday?
one jug in the morning, and about 1/3 jug that i poured into the skimmers when wiping them down again.
Commonly, a black line around the pool water line (and the inside of the skimmer) is a combo of people goo and lotion. At pools where many of the users are what my employees used to call "slip & dippers" (slop on the oil till they were slippery, then rinse it off in the pool, then repeat) the accumulation could be heavy.
I've also seen it occur when trichlor tabs with unusually high amounts of silicone mold release (from the process that presses trichlor powder into tabs) compound were used.
Regardless, you DEFINITELY want to clean it off if you can; time + sunlight + chlorine tend to make the black mark permanent.
That certainly makes sense. What I find odd (and why I mentioned it) is the timing…I've been shocking my pool for a solid week now (to 30-35 FC), with nothing/no one in the pool during this time (other than my arm to retrieve water samples) so why would a black ring of goo suddenly show up on Sunday morning? I check and empty my skimmer/baskets daily and Saturday there was no line at all.
I've had dozens of (mostly) girls in the pool with very health-conscious mom's who indeed slather and spray them right before they swim…even tho I tell them repeatedly it's just going to come off in the water. I've never had anything black before. Is it the high FC levels "leeching" stuff out?
@PoolDoc, I don't know if you've read through this whole thread, so here's my quick summary from post #59:
mary jo's pool has CYA of about 150ppm, CH of 750, a history of trichlor use, periods of zero measurable chlorine, and low pH. There's no visible algae, and high chlorine demand. The Nature 2 cartridge is in place but hasn't been replaced in the last two years. There is a possibility that some amount of fertilizer made it into the pool. My guesses are that some CYA may have been converted to ammonia causing chlorine demand (no bad smell so probably not); the fertilizer may be causing chlorine demand directly; or that a nascent algae bloom (possibly aided by fertilizer) is causing chlorine demand.
Since I wrote the summary, the pool has been brought and kept at 30ppm FC and has been there for some time. During the shock, the chlorine demand seems to be subsiding but still about 7-8ppm /day with a consistent 3ppm CC.
Thanks for looking in.
btw: just tested again @ 12:30 FC=30 CC=2.0
should I add a jug of bleach or wait and test later this afternoon?
With an FC of 30 I'd hold off on adding more chlorine.
Dozens of girls, heavily coated with suntan goo, would DEFINITELY create a higher than expected chlorine load on a small home pool.Quote:
Originally Posted by mary jo
@BigDave: Any remaining ammonia would show up as CC's. Ammonia reacts VERY quickly with chlorine, so it's not likely that that is still an issue, though it may have been one before.
On the other hand, most IN-GROUND pools are very lightly used. An IG pool with lots of coated girls will have a chlorine demand that is a MULTIPLE of the typical of the 1 - 2 ppm per day.
@mary jo: If you have more than 1 - 2 girls at the pool at one time, and they stay longer than 1 hour at a time at the pool, there's a high chance they are peeing in the pool, too. If any of them are competiive swimmers, that chance approaches 100%: virtually all USS (year round) swimmers, middle school and up, routinely pee in the pool.
This is not a health risk -- urine is normally sterile -- and on well chlorinated outdoor pools exposed to full sun, it's not even a chemical problem, because chlorine + UV quickly break down the chemicals in urine. But it WILL produce a major increase in chlorine usage.
@PoolDoc: mary jo hosted a pool party before starting the shock and has had no swimmers since - sorry, I should have included that in the summary. I agree that any ammonia would show as much higher CC and smell. After over a week at 20% shock level with clear water I doubt it's algae. So... maybe the fertilizer? Maybe space aliens? Any other ideas or more importantly, course of action? Thanks again.
OK- off track here but have to comment: the pee in the pool thing really grosses me out. I may have to initiate a mandatory "pee before you get in" rule (right after the "don't splash mom" rule). I already have strict rule about always, ALWAYS having a dedicated adult watching any junior swimmers in my pool. If I'm spoiling their social scene then too bad, kiddo. I heard about the public pool stats but seriously- in a private pool people do this???