Thanks, Richard.
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Thanks, Richard.
I did do the stick test for ammonia, I will pick up the other ammonia test kit they had in the store that uses drops and a color card , similar to the pool 5 way test kits. I know for sure I put in 3 gallons of ammonia on start up by suggestion of the new pool guy (who I don't use anymore). Can 3 gallons in a 33k pool , do so much damage ?? How do we get rid if it is ammonia, maybe we should treat it as such even with the stick test showing negative. ??
Ok, update: I purchased an Ammonia test kit with the drops and color card , goes from 0-8ppm. I will do it as soon as I get home and test the FCL and TCL again.
Ok, the reults are in :
On the Lamotte kit, FCL is .41
TCL is 1.45
On the FAS-DPD kit it turned a tinge pink when the dpd powder was put in, then 1 drop of R-0871 cleared it up , which should indicate .5 FCL , then 5 drops of R-0003 turned it pink , then 2 drops of 0871 turned it clear which should indicate 1.0 of CC , I don't know if that means we are coming closer to solving this, I did put in the 10 pounds of Calcium hypo into the skimmers at 10:30 am before leaving to a meeting , and the pool is cloudy due to the chemicals. I did these CL tests at 4:45pm, the Ammonia test came out with 0.25 ppm (mg/L) so I don't think ammonia is the problem. There is no visible algae, no alge on the floor. I'm going crazy .....Should I use 8 gallons of 6% bleach overnight ???
Did you measure that FC tonight? Did all the Cal-Hypo dissolve (that's why it's cloudy--don't worry about THAT for now)?
If so, it's now evening, then add 5 gallons of LC...I think you are fighting the organic, whatever it is. Check your FAS-DPD test in the morning, too--BEFORE you add more. If it's come up, you are making progress. But you'll need to add enough LC to get it to the shock level.
PATIENCE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by poolrescue30
I don't know the concentration of ammonia that was used, but let's say it was 10%. That would be about 2.5 pounds or in your 33,000 gallon pool that's 9 ppm which is a lot and would require a cumulative amount of 90 ppm FC to get rid of. Also, you could have had ammonia before you even added it, from soil bacteria converting CYA into ammonia.Quote:
Originally Posted by poolrescue30
The fact that you are measuring even a little ammonia along with CC probably indicates that this was the problem -- but the good news is that you may be close to done! I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
Richard
Ditto, here!
Thanks, Richard--the ammonia issue is a very, very unusual one for our members.
Update: I had to be out of town yesterday till this afternoon.I had a friend pour in two 174 oz jugs of 6% bleach , last night at 6pm .This afternnon when I got back i took a sample to the pool store , it showed FCL 0.1 ppm and TCL 0.6 ppm, I hope that means the CC going down is a sigh the problem is going away , although i'm not keeping any FCL in thr pool ?? They suggested 3 lbs more Calcium Hypo into the skimmers and check 3 hours later and then 8 hours later on the FCL level . Does it make sense ???
Thanks
I have told you before: the Cal-Hypo is not better than the liquid chlorine. It even may make your pool cloudy for a while until it all dissolves in, and it will raise your calcium level, which may be harmless.
But unless the Cal-Hypo is seriously cheaper, there's not any point to using it.
The reason they keep pushing it is that is what pool store clerks do. They see a bag of "Shock" and it's full of cal-hypo so they think that MUST be what you use.
But, as I said before: In your water, chlorine is chlorine. And Liquid Chlorine goes to work FASTER because it doesn't have to dissolve first.
CarlD,I appreciate your help. The pool store I go to is family owned an very expensive on their chemicals, but their computer water test, has been used by me for over 5 years. Sometimes I buy the chemicals there, sometimes I go elsewhere. The owner's son has been doing my test himself, he is trying to figure it out. In fact , when he said to throw in 2 carboys of LC, after having already.purchased 2 three daya prior, he threw in the second carboy for free. He had called his chemical manufacturer and spoken to the chemist there and went through all my numbers with him, they suggested the calcium hypo instead of LC,(which their company also sells to the pool store) they said to throw in the 3 bags tonight and test the FC 3 hours later and then tomorrow morning. I did the FAS-DPD test tonight after the 3 hours. It showed 1 ppm of FC and 1 ppm of CC. The chemist suggested 3 bags per 10k gallons of water over the weekend if the FCL doesn't stay in till the morning. I don't want anymore calcium hypo, my pool will be clousy for a month, how much LC should I put in ?thanks
P-R:
I really appreciate that sometimes you make a business decision for its long-term impact. A family-owned pool store working SO hard for you is one you want to give business to. I'd do the same--in fact, I do give biz to one store that has higher prices because they EARN it with the help they've given me over the years.
The pool chem company's chemist is going to recommend company-sanctioned options--like buying cal-hypo.
You CAN use it--I'm sorry if I was unclear--but I'm not a fan of it. Water can be cloudy until it dissolves, and, if hardness goes too high can also make it cloudy. Cal-Hypo can also drive up pH.
If you now have your test kit, test your Calcium Hardness (or just Hardness) and your total Alk. (I think your T/A is 100--"99" is a meaningless #) If your hardness stays under 500ppm and your T/A is 100 your water should stay clear once it dissolves in.
I'm trying to figure out why they prefer it--and all I can think of is that since it takes time to dissolve they are thinking you'll have a residual chlorine level in your water longer.
But I still would go with LC--the amount you figure to add is:
1 gallon of LC (12.5%) will add 12.ppm of FC to 10,000 gallons of water. So it takes 3 1/3 gallons to get that in your pool...Ballpark is that 4 1/3 gallons gets you to about 15ppm--so might as well make it 5 gallons.
You are DEFINITELY fighting something but now your FC is 1 and your CC is 1 so it's getting there.
I don't know of a better way. The ONLY thing I can think to do is a newer, more intense version of our method, which is do-able on a weekend. But you MUST have the FAS-DPD test to do it. That's to have many, many carboys of LC--like 5 or 6. Add one in the morning and test the water 1/2 later. If the FC isn't at shock
level, add more LC. Do this every half hour until FC reads at shock level and continue measuring it and adding LC whenever it drops off. The idea is to NEVER let the FC drop below the killing level to absorb what ever is in your pool.
There MUST be some contaminant--either that or you've got some really nasty and resistant to chlorine bacteria growing in there. Something's there that ordinary tests don't show--and I don't think it's phosphates either--and we know it's not ammonia, but must be something similar that's not "living"--like bromine.
You may want to consider a full water replacement--Poconos has a method that doesn't risk damaging your liner--involving a huge sheet of plastic--you add new water on top and drain the old from below and there's always pressure on the liner.
Unless you are willing to keep up the LC regimen, I must admit I'm coming to the end of my ideas.
Chem_Geek, Waterbear, Mods, Marie? have you got any other ideas?
The water was tested for phosphates a week ago and there wasn't any in the pool.
I tested this morning at 9am and the FC was .25 and the CC was .25, using the FAS-DPD kit. I can only hope that it's a sign I (we) are getting rid of the contaminant. But the FC is being used at a really high rate to get rid of the TCL, so maybe it was ammonia as chem-geek had said. I will not use calcium hypo as their suggestion as the pool is cloudy, I wil try the LC regimen you suggested starting Sunday morning , my day off !!
You want me to test every half hour ?? Is that sufficient time for the first 5 gallons to get around ?? And then I will top off as you suggested. At this point I am also contemplating removing half the water, which would still keep the liner in place and replacing with clean water, my only question is will this dilute the contaminant enough to then be able to kill it with a "normal" chlorine maintnenace program ?? Your help is really appreciated.
How did you measure .25? Using the standard Taylor FAS-DPD test you can only measure .5 (when you use 10 ml of water) or .2 (when you use 25ml of water). Do you have the Taylor FAS-DPD test? Drop tests are titration tests--you go till the color changes and it's either one value or the next. For example, your FC level cannot be .25 with the Taylor test. It can be 0, .2 or .5, or any multiple of .2 or .5 (.4, .6, 1, 1.2, 1.5, etc.)
How are you conducting your own FC/CC test? This concerns me.
Are you adding DPD powder until it turns red, then counting drops from the brown bottle, 1 drop being either .5 or .2ppm until it goes completely clear? ( set it on the white label to make sure I've gotten out the last tinge of pink)
Are you then, adding to that same solution 5 drops from Reagent 0003?
Is it turning pink or red again?
How many drops does it take to make it go clear?
I've not tried the 30 minute drill--it's new to me, but I'm trying very hard to get you over the hump of fighting the contaminant and back to maintaining a normal pool--and your regimen should have made it clear by now....so either something else is going on in your water or I'm not communicating correctly or completely with you.
My mistake, it took 2 drops of 871 to turn it clear and then after the 5 drops of 0003 it turned pink and took 2 drops to turn clear again. So it would be multiplied by .5 , I divided by mistake. The FAS-DPD kit is from TFP. As per the pool store test just now , there is 0.0 FCL and 0.5 CC ,there was .1 FCL and .6 CC yesterday. Does this mean we are on the way down ?? As far as TA it's 105 and Hardness is 170. It does look like we are heading down , but the FCL has been being used up very quickly ? Thanks
Carl,Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlD
For some reason, there's been quite a few reports of unusual chlorine demand on multiple forums. Some of them have clearly been ammonia issues and most of them got cleared up with the demand going away once the ammonia and resulting combined chlorine (after adding chlorine) were eliminated. A few have persisted with continued chlorine demand and I, too, am at my wits end to know why.
It does not appear to be nascent algae growth as phosphate levels are nil and the water is clear in these cases (and bucket tests don't show algae blooming). In one case, the chlorine loss is only during the day so appears to be something like bromine, but the loss was quite rapid -- faster than one would expect with bromine and it was verified that there was CYA in the water.
One obvious thing would be to make sure that the skimmer and filter are cleaned out since lots of small organics (such as pollen) would create a high chlorine demand. In theory, one would only see such demand during running of the pump.
I think your recommendation of a concentrated chlorinating liquid effort on a frequent basis is reasonable. I would, however, like to know with some certainty whether the FC loss in this case occurs primarily during the day or if it also occurs overnight. Also, if chlorine gets added and the FC drops very quickly, CC then goes up, and then CC goes down in about an hour or so, then that would likely be oxidation of ammonia (though I don't know why it wouldn't show higher in an ammonia test). Also, it seems like we've only got some pool store numbers for things like CYA -- it would obviously be much better to confirm the water chemistry parameters with a known good test kit such as the Taylor K-2006 or the TF100.
Richard
Well, if you measured 10 ml of water, and use 2 drops of 871 to clear it, your FC is 1.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by poolrescue30
If you then added 5 drops of 0003 and needed 2 more drops of 871 to clear it your CC is also 1.0
And your TC is 2.0
Now that you have your TF-100, don't bother with the pool store testing--it will just cloud ( :() the issue. TA and Hardness are fine for now--ignore them.
As usual, Richard's advice is excellent. My own chlorine usage has been much higher this summer than usual. I'm putting in 2 quarts of 12.5% every day--about twice as much as I usually use. Not showing CC levels, but it's just using it up. I'm now looking at boosting my CYA level and running a higher residual.Quote:
Originally Posted by chem geek
The ONLY thing I can think of is that I've not been covering my pool as much as it's been warm, so....I think there's been gassing off by aeration to raise my pH (which has also been higher than usual, tho still in the 7.5-7.8 range) and that my chlorine hasn't been as effective and is getting consumed...at least that's how my logic is running.
So... I've filled a floater with Tri-Chlor (Gasp!) to try to keep pH down, raise CYA up a bit, and keep a steadier flow of chlorine into the water. Of course, I'll be watching my numbers like a hawk....
I mentioned this to you in another thread so I can't help but chime in. I had been using huge amounts of LC to rid myself of mustard algae and to maintain a higher than normal level to ward it off. I too used my floater (another gasp) to raise my CYA and make sure my chlorine didn't drop while I was off camping. I took it out when I came back Sunday and haven't had to add chlorine in four days. I do keep the blanket on all the time to save water. My water is extremely snappy right now and I am testing every day and keeping my fingers crossed that it will stay that way. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlD
I did put in the 15 lbs of calcium hypo shock Friday at 7:00 pm, I know Carl you said chlorine is chlorine, but this was the advice of the pool store's chemical supplier who also produces his LC. I tested the water tonight at 11:00pm and it shows .5 FCL and .5 CC, I don't know if we are getting anywhere ??? I will take a sample to test by the pool store and we are also sending a sample to the chemical supplier as well. I'm at my wits end and don't know if I should just drain the pool halfway, or the whole damn thing OR do we just continue with a clean ,clear (when the calcium goes down ) algae free pool, with a CC problem and treat it with some bleach every couple of days and swim as nothing happened ???
I'd like to see the pool store's test results, see if they confirm yours. I'd also like you to get test strips (Hach or Lamotte only) and see if they confirm it too. Normally I don't recommend strips, but I want to see if all 3 testing methods (You with drops, the pool store, and the strips) are all consistent with each other.
Ok, I ordered a TF100 kit, my old 5 way kit is worthless. Where can I get those good strips, around here they only have aquacheck ones ?the pool store is overnighting my water sample to the chemical company tomorrow , so hopefully we'll have test results by Wednesday/Thursday.
Update:
the pool is still a little cloudy from all the Calcium Hypo that I put in over the weekend.This morning I put in a gallon of 6% bleach .I just tested it with a FAS-DPD test kit.I did it twice , filled it till the 25ml mark, and it turns a nice pink when i put the powder in, 2 drops (multiplied by .2) turns it clear so that would indicate .40 ppm of FCL and after turning it pink with the R0003 , it only took 1 drop to turn it clear, which would indicate the CC is .2ppm.
Are we winning this long battle ?? Should I pour in 8-10 gallons of 6% bleach to shock it overnight ? or wiat for the chemical company's water test result which should be in in the next couple of days ?? THANKS
YES!!! YOU ARE WINNING!Quote:
Originally Posted by poolrescue30
It's been a long fight..
We did it !! Thanks everyone for your help. I couldn't get to Walmart last night, so I picked up 7 128 oz.jugs of 5.25% bleach in my local store poured it in at 7:30pm last night. Just tested the pool with the FAS-DPD kit. Filled it to the 25mml mark. Turned really dark pink when the poweder went in. Took 35 drops to turn clear, which indicates 7ppm of FCL, it stayed clear after the R003 went in so I think we got rid of all the CC !!!!! Now how do I keep it good ??? Also I think my CYA is at 100, do they make unstabilized chlorine tablets ? Or should I just use Bleach to maintain the level ??THANKS A LOT !!
Great! Maintain it for 24-48 hours! If your CYA is 100, you'll need to keep your FC very high--check the Best Guess table for the range (I should have it memorized but I don't--I think it's 8-15ppm with shocking at 25).
Next, the only unstabilized tabs are the Cal-Hypo Duration by HTH and similar by Pool-life (?) You CANNOT PUT THEM IN A PERMANANT CHLORINATOR!
I just add a gallon of bleach every other day or so.
The pool is absolutley perfect, crystal clear !! What is interesting is that I had a green "stain" about 12 x 12 inches on the liner in the deepest part of the pool. I know that's where the leaves that were in the pool when it was closed last year. I thought the liner was stained from the leaves themselves , but now after all the LC and Calcium hypo shock. It is gone. I'm assuming it was some kind of mildew or mold on the liner that was eating up all the FCL ? How do I prevent this in the future ??
:D:D:D:D:DQuote:
Originally Posted by poolrescue30
You maintain your FC levels EVERYDAY and vacuum and brush your pool at least once a week!
(BTW, congratulations on a successful fight!)
Thanks CarlD , couldn't have done it without you, Chem_Geek and the other posters. It was a very long fight, wors one I had in 11 years of pool ownership. I did a CYA test myself, once yesterday and again today CYA is clearly 50 using the tube and black dot test, so I think we're in good shape, thanks again.
I guess that means it's time to put your pool to an unusual use...
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GO SWIMMING!!!!!