I have used the chemistry store to buy ascorbic acid - they are very dependable, and will even answer any questions you have. The chemicals are delivered quickly too.:)
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I have used the chemistry store to buy ascorbic acid - they are very dependable, and will even answer any questions you have. The chemicals are delivered quickly too.:)
Have you tried Lowes? I know they sell it, so you can order it online from them.
I get mine at Home Despot. I think there are some shipping restrictions on the stuff so it might not be so simple to order.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure that swimming pools are the most common usage so look on the "pool aisle."
Ace Hardware also usually carries it...and you can get it in just about any pool store. In my area one of the pool stores (NOT the one I work at) has the best price I have been able to find....so don't rule out the pool stores, it is possible to shop in one without getting "poolstored"!;)
Week 5 and some strange test results! I have not done anything to the pool after last weeks tests except vacumn and put a new cart in the filter so I could soak the old one (It's been in a year and was looking a bit grey...after soaking in Electrosal automatic dishwasher detergent overnight and hosing it off it now looks brand new!)
We did have a few days with no sun and a lot of rain because of Ernesto. The water in the pool is a bit higher than usual but not as high as last week. It's been sunny and hot the past 2 days so there has been some evaporation.
Borates still about 50 ppm....the test strips have division for 30, 50, and 80 and it is between 30 and 50 and much closer to 50 than any other color. I would have to say around 45 ppm. Still within the "good" range and will probably go up when the excess water evaporates.
FC 10 ppm ppm Don't understand this at all....might be from the days with no sun but I just can't explain this!(I lowered my SWG output last week after the test and my FC went UP!)
CC 0 ppm
TC (oto) l10 ppm also, Shotglass method 1:1 dilution
pH 7.6 (rechecked this, Used both Ben's kit and Taylor 2005...it's still holding....5 weeks and I have not put any acid into the pool! don't know if the rains kept the pH down or what)
TA 100 ppm ( was 90 last week, accuracy of the test is 10 ppm so this is basically the same. rains seem to have had no effect on TA!)
Adjusted alk 78 ppm (CYA up to 65 ppm since water in pool is not as high as last weeks test. was 60 ppm last week)
Calcium 180-190 ppm (did test twice, was 170 last week because of dilution from rain, water level in pool a bit lower now)
CYA 65 ppm (up a bit from last week because of water level in pool lower from evaporation)
Salt 3200 ppm (readout on AquaLogic) (temp of water is a few degrees lower than last week and Aqualogic is not temp corrected when it calculates salt level so this makes sense. Guess I should be including the temp readings also...this week 85 degrees, last week 88 degrees.
Salt 3200 ppm (Tayor K-1766)precison of test is 200 ppm so this is essentially the same as last weeks test of 3400 ppm
Pool is still clear and sparkling.
Didn't test the spa this week....got dark before I could get to it. If I get a chance to test it on sunday I will post the results.
The only thing I can't explain is the high FC levels! I have done nothing to the pool except vacumn and put in a new cart last Saturday! Haven't used the pool or spa all week. Perhaps that is part of it and the water is a bit cooler. gonna wait another week and see what happens. Cell in on 6% with an 8 hour run time....might knock a few hours off the run time in a week and see what happens if the FC stays up around 10 ppm.
Can't believe that I have not put acid in the pool in 5 weeks! :D I still think the rains are what has kept the pH down but during rainy season last year the pool still needed acid every 2-3 weeks! I did have to cut my pump run time down last october to 6 hours a day because it was not so warm and my FC was high....cell output was on 6% then also. This might be what is happening now.
The largest process of chlorine consumption is the breakdown from sunlight where up to around half of the FC can be consumed each day of full sun. So let's say for sake of argument that you were maintaining 4 ppm FC (your previous reading) and that normally sunlight would consume about 2 ppm of this each day so let's say that your cell was producing 2.5 ppm of chlorine -- 2 ppm for replacing the chlorine broken down from sunlight and 0.5 ppm for oxidation of organics and killing of bugs and preventing algae. If there was little or no sunlight (UV), then if you were in a steady-state of chlorine before, then now you would build up 2 ppm of extra chlorine per day. That's my best guess as to what happened here. Once sunlight returns, the high chlorine levels will get cut down quickly since the same "half-life" rule will apply (so you might go from 10 to 5 or 6 FC in one sunny day).Quote:
Originally Posted by waterbear
It's great news that your addition of acid has dropped to virtually nothing, but the borates should only be affecting the buffering of pH and not the actual use of acid itself, except for the reduction in chlorine consumption (and therefore SWCG output, including aeration from hydrogen gas) due to the borates taking over some of the role of preventing algae. So when the time comes when the pH does rise, it will take a lot more acid to move the pH a small amount so that the net amount of acid you have to add might be close to what you used to do per unit time (again, except for the reduction in chlorine production) -- it'll just need to be added less frequently. We'll see if this is true or not...
Of course, you reported in another thread that you found a pH rise even with a solar cover. So we still haven't really figured out the true source of your pH rise yet. I'm still guessing that at least some of it might be chlorine outgassing (perhaps this gets through or around the solar cover or the hydrogen gas bubble aeration still works???) in which case your current lower SWCG chlorine production levels due to the borates taking over some of chlorine's prevention of algae growth will also lower chlorine outgassing due to aeration from hydrogen gas bubbles. As of now, your pH rise is still a mystery to be solved (hopefully).
Richard
Week 6....numbers haven't changed much at all! Last Saturday I adjusted the actuator on the return so when in pool mode water flows into the spa at a very slow rate yet the pool returns still have basically full force. The spillover just trickles. This makes the pool and spa one slightly larger body of water (about 6850 gal). I wanted to see what impact this would have...aeration from the spillover in pool mode is minimal. I lowered the spa only run time to 30 minuets/day and kept the cell output at 4%
Pool cell output has been at 5% since last Friday. I did this so I would not have to treat the pool and spa as separate bodies of water but I also did not want the spillover running all the time since it turns off the pool returns.
Tested the water after the pump had shut off in spa mode so I could see if there was a difference in FC readings. There was. Spa was 1.5 ppm higher which is just what I want! (However pool is still a bit high, lowered cell output in pool mode to 4% and will see what happens in a week.) I did a quick check of chlorine levels in spa and pool on Tuesday while in pool mode and both were 8.5 ppm.
Here are the numbers:
Pool FC 7 ppm (Lowered output on cell to 4%today after test, pump run time still 8 hours total)
CC 0 ppm
Spa FC tested after spa only mode 8.5 ppm Spa only mode runs 1/2 hour a day with cell output on 4%
CC 0 ppm
(If I can get the pool FC down and still maintain about a 1.5 ppm higher level in the spa I will be very happy)
pH 7.6-7.7 ( both Ben's kit and Taylor 2005, If pressed I would have to say it's closer to 7.7...it's still holding....decided to put in some acid to drop it down to about 7.5, calculated that I would need about 6 oz.! That's 6 oz. of acid total in 6 weeks! Before the borates I was putting in 24 oz. every 3 weeks!)
TA 100 ppm (Still holding)
After adding the acid the pH was right on the money at 7.5 by Ben's kit and looked to be between the 7.4 and 7.6 on the Taylor kit. I retested the TA twice and still got 100 ppm. I guess 3/4 cup of acid is not enough to affect the TA to any great degree in my pool.
Adjusted alk 76 ppm (CYA back up to 70 ppm since water in pool is at normal level)
Calcium 190 ppm (still holding)
CYA 70 ppm (water level in pool back to normal)
Salt 3100 ppm (readout on AquaLogic) (temp of water is 83 degrees...cooler than last weeks test)
Salt 3300 ppm (Taylor K-1766, got a slight persistant red color at 16 drops, 3200 ppm, but it was not as dark as normal, full color reached at 17 drops, 3400 ppm, so I figure it's about 3300 ppm...normal range anyway)
Pool is still clear and sparkling.
I am not going to post any more in this thread unless there seems to be some major upset in the numbers or my acid use. I am satisfied that the addition of borates to the water DOES do the things claimed for it! I would recommend this to anyone that might want to try it! The most surprising one is the reduction in chlorine demand in my pool. Would love to find out why that is occurring but am not complaining!:D I was thinking that the lower water temp might be the cause but I have checked the temp during the day and it's still been 88 degrees. It is cooling off more at night though. Perhaps this is the reason. Pool heater has been off through all these test results. Only the spa is heated when in use or when the pump runs in spa only mode.
Perhaps this is tied in with the lower chlorine demand because of the algaestatic properties. I am thinking that if algae doesn't start to grow then less chlorine is used. Perhaps algae is always trying to grow in a pool and the chlorine is killing it and the stuff I was vacumning and collecting in the skimmer sock was dead algae. I have to vacumn less now and my skimmer socks don't need to be changed weekly. They are good for about 2 weeks now. Would appreciate any feedback on this theory.
This is great news Evan. The Borates look like they have had nothing but positive results.
I calculate that 6 oz. of Muriatic Acid in 6850 gallons with your other numbers would lower the pH from 7.7 to 7.60 (or 7.6 to 7.49) due to the 50 ppm of Borates that help buffer the pH. With no Borates, you would go from 7.7 to 7.47 or from 7.6 to 7.40 so I'm not sure what's going on with what you saw. It could be in the ballpark for the 0.1 drop, but it seemed like you saw something closer to 0.2
An earlier post of mine in this thread showed this link that indicates Boric Acid does kill algae or inhibit algae growth so I believe your theory may be correct. The Boric Acid is killing nascent algae so that chlorine does not have to and this results in a lower consumption of chlorine, but I wouldn't expect this to be that much lower. As I mentioned in a previous post, most chlorine consumption is from breakdown from sunlight so if you see a large reduction in chlorine consumption then somehow Boric Acid is shielding the chlorine from sunlight. I doubt that is happening so perhaps other factors are coming into play as the season cools down, as you said.
As for the lower acid demand, that is the actual amount of acid added over time as opposed to the amount the pH rises, it is possible that this is related to the lower chlorine consumption because you had to lower your chlorine generation output level to about half of where you were before. If things were linear, then this would have cut down CO2 outgassing in half and cut the acid demand in half, but things are probably not linear when it comes to aeration so I'm betting that you would have still had a high acid demand if you had kept your chlorine output the same (but your FC would have been too high so that was not an option, even for an experiment).
Anyway, the bottom line is that Boric Acid has significantly helped your situation of rising pH, has cut down your chlorine consumption, and feels good (makes the water sparkle). Thanks again for turning us on to this product.
Richard
Richard,Quote:
Originally Posted by chem geek
Like I said the pH was 7.6-7.7 as best as I could tell before I added the acid. After it was sitting right at 7.5 so I guess it was closer to 7.6 than 7.7 -- a .1 change in pH is probably about right.
It is definitely in the ball park!
So, my question to you is....When are YOU putting borates in YOUR pool?:D
Since the pool is used by both my wife and I and she uses it during the week when I don't, she has the final say in this. I've talked to her about adding salt (to around 1000 ppm) for a silkier feel and about adding Borates as well and she's game. So now the ball is in my court so I just need to get my lazy butt off the couch and do it! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by waterbear
I sent an E-mail to Taylor Technologies about creating a drop-based test kit for borates (ppm Boron). They said that they have just introduced a kit for testing Boron, but it is designed for industrial water as one drop measures 0.2 or 0.5 ppm (similar to their FAS-DPD chlorine test). I don't see this on their website yet, but it could still be useful if one were to do a 10:1 dilution and use the 0.5 test (to get within 5 ppm). It sounds like the ProTeam strips (or the ones from LaMotte) are still the way to go since they are close enough for accuracy and very easy to use.
Richard
I have been using the Aquacheck borate strips which I believe are identical to the Proteam strips. Have not been able to find the LaMotte strips for sale anywhere either locally or on the net. I have ordered the Aquacheck strips from hereQuote:
Originally Posted by chem geek
http://www.diywatertesting.com/
Cheapest price I could find, free shipping, and I got my oder in 3 days!
waterbear (Evan),
I ran through some numbers on my spreadsheet assuming certain levels in your salt pool with borates and low TA. If I put in a pH of 7.5, TA of 70, CYA of 75 (for your SWG), CH of 300, TDS of 3200 (or salt of about 3000), 50 ppm Borates (Boron), and a temp of 85F, then this gives me a carbonate alkalinity of only 39 and a calcite saturation index of -0.47 (pool-store Langelier is -0.39). Now I know we don't give much credence to these indices and problems aren't normally seen until around +/-0.7 or even +/-1.0, but even so, the exceptionally low carbonate alkalinity in your pool plus the high salt level make the water more corrosive.
I just wanted you to know this and to be on the lookout for any signs of such corrosion, namely any dissolving or pitting of plaster/gunite/grout. If you notice your calcium hardness increasing (or not decreasing as much as it normally does, if it decreases from backwashing), then that would be a sure sign of trouble.
Assuming your CYA is high for the SWG (at 75 ppm), then a TA of 100 (carbonate alkalinity 69 and relative outgas rate 6.0) shouldn't outgas that much carbon dioxide, though it would be at about double the rate of a TA of 70 (carbonate alkalinity 39 and relative outgas rate 2.9). A TA of 100 would bring the "index" to -0.22 while also increasing the CH to 500 would bring the index to -0.01.
Richard
Richard,
I run a adjusted TA of about 70 ppm (which means I run a TA of about 90), pH of 7.6, salt about 3400 ppm, Cal around 220-250 ppm, and temp around 82 when the heater is on. See what those give. BTW, I have seen no corrosive action to the water. Try plugging those numbers in and see what you get.
Evan
With the higher pH and TA, this increases the saturation index. The higher salt level and lower CH (235) decrease it somewhat. The net result I now get is -0.35 which is better than the -0.47 I was seeing before. The actual carbonate alkalinity is 57.0. If I remove the Borates and keep the measured TA the same, then I get a carbonate alkalinity of 64.4 so though the Borates do not have a large effect, they do have some effect on alkalinity and therefore any "adjustment" calculation.
I'm glad to hear that you resolved your rising pH issue by lowering the TA only to 90 instead of 70, especially with the high CYA levels needed for the SWG. That makes this "lower TA" recommendation more reasonable for people combating rising pH without having to adjust too much of the other parameters.
If you increased your CH to 300, the saturation index would be -0.21; increasing it to 400 would make the index -0.09. Of course, raising the pH by 0.1 raises the saturation index by the same amount and is another alternative. Since you're not seeing any problems, you could of course just keep things as they are. Raising the CH to 300 or 400 wouldn't be hard now that you've stabilized your pool with all its parameters tweaked the way you want them (i.e. borates, salt, CYA). Just FYI.
Richard
Just a quick update to anyone interested.
I have not needed ANY acid in my pool for the past 3 months. pH has been steady at 7.6 and ALK at 80-90 ppm. (We has some rains so that might account for a need for less acid and I have had to top off the pool and my fill water has a TA of between 80-110 when I have tested it on various times so this might account for some of the stability but not all of it!)
Can we get an update on this? My acid demand this year has been atrocious. I go through 4 gallons every 2-3 weeks.
I just added 50 ppm to my pool a few weeks ago but I have not had a change in acid usage yet. I have four strikes against me when it comes to PH drift:
1) Plaster pool
2) SWG
3) High PH fill water > 8
4) High TA fill water > 220 ppm
I am not sure if the Borates are going to help my situation much but it is probably too soon to tell. I still have to get my TA down since it sits at about 110 ppm. After I do that I will report back if I see any changes.
EDIT: I actually have 4 issues
My pool has been holding fairly steady at pH 7.6-7.7. My acid use is very low and I am running my SWG at about 8% output compared to the 15-20% I was running it at before the borates. I keep my TA at about 80-90 ppm before stabilizer adjustment.
I will soon install a SWCG, and am very interested in this experiement.
To verify, my optimum target readings should be...
TA 80-90 ppm (before stabilizer correction)
TA 70 ppm (after stabilizer correction)
CH 220-250 ppm
Borates 50 ppm?
Correct? Am I missing something?
Every pool is different and your calcium level is also important in where your TA is. Stabilizer correction will subtract between 20-30 ppm from your TA, depending on your CYA level so you want to have your TA between 80-110 uncorrected or between 60-80 corrected. (The borates also add a bit to your uncorrected TA.Quote:
Originally Posted by vgg659
Keep the pH at 7.6-7.7.
Borates between 30-50 ppm.
Calcuim should be slighly higher if you run the TA lower. If your TA is at the higher end then run the calcum arourn 220, if your TA is at the lower end then run the calcium higher (300 or so). If your calcium is higher because of your fill water or new plaster then you can get away with running your TA at the low end. (maybe as low as 70 uncorrected.)
I have not plugged these values into Richard's spreadsheet but from my experience with my customers pools they work! It's a pool, not a recipe for Angel Food Cake!:D
Every pool is different. Get the system up and running and get the borates and pH in range. See where your calcium is to get an idea of how low to go with your TA. If your calcuim is on the low end put your TA around 90-110 before stabilizer correcton and see how your acid usage is, then lower it about 10 ppm at a time and see if the pool becomes more stable. If your calcium is high (above 300 ppm) start your TA at about 80 uncorrected. I have found that if you add acid as soon as the pH hits 7.8 and bring it back to 7.6 you will have much less acid usage than if you let it rise higher. A vinyl or fiberglass pool is going to be much more pH stable than a plaster pool in any case.you will find a point where your pool seems to 'lock in' to a pH around 7.6 or 7.7 and stay there for a while. It will climb but not as fast.
Does the borate affect ORP sensor readings? Sorry if this is an ignorant question (I'm ignorant!). I'm converting from BAQ (started yesterday). I wanna try everything, being an experimenter.
So (1) I want to finish converting from BAQ to CL;
(2) boost the borate;
(3) build a liquid CL dispenser that is controlled by a PC along with an ORP sensor
Thus the question.
For what a peristaltic pump. controller, and orp and pH electrodes will cost why not just install a SWG?
Great question! I had every intention of doing so (would love to do so) but then I read that SWG is not recommended for AG pools due to the metal structures corroding due to salt buildup over time.Quote:
Originally Posted by waterbear
Goldline Controls makes the AquaTrol SWGs specifically for AGPs! The pump plugs into the controller (straight plug and twist lock available) and they make cells that either fit into the return or are plumped inline with either flex or hard plumbing.
I want to be convinced. But is the Goldline Controls AquaTrol SWG OK for older above-ground pools with metal frames / walls? I understand that salt buildup over time can corrode the metal. I tried to google up their web site, but just found sales sites (impatient).Quote:
Originally Posted by waterbear
www.goldlinecontrols.com
You can email them and ask. they have contact info on their website.
I tried it; the web site seems to be down.Quote:
Originally Posted by waterbear
I was just on their website and it seems to be working fine. Here is their contact info page:
http://www.goldlinecontrols.com/Contact/Default.aspx
They are part of Hayward so they are a major company! I would try calling their support number and asking about the AquaTrol. You don't want to contact one of their distributors, you want to talk to them directly for your questions.
Edit: Here is their support webpage:
http://www.goldlinecontrols.com/Contact/Support.aspx
I just tried calling tech support and they are there!
Hi ,
Today I started my quest to get my borates up to 50 ppm. I went to home depot to get some muriatic acid. The first thing I noticed is that it looks like water. I haven't purchased acid since last season. The acid I had from before was yellow in color. I looked at the ingredients and it has 14.5% acid. Unfortunatly I didn't have any left over acid jugs from last season to see if they lowered the percentage of acid. I know the acid I had before would almost knock you out if you caught a smell of it. This stuff doesn't do a thing. Has anyone else noticed any difference? I am in California Modesto area.
Chem Geek when you calcualted the amount of acid per box of borax what percentage was it for? Maybe this is the reason why I am having to add so much acid to my pool to get a change. If in fact the percentage has changed. Well off to add some borax and acid to the pool. cya
They are selling acid that is weaker in strength now. Don't know if it's a safety issue or what but regular pool acid would be 20 Baume or 31% by weight. This stuff they are selling is about 10 Baume so it is half strenth. I've noticed the price is the same!
The borax calculations for acid are for 20 Baume or 31% Muriatic acid!
Yes, my calculations (in the spreadsheet) are for Muriatic Acid that is 31.45% Hydrochloric Acid that has been a standard for a very long time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciscokid
I had the same problem. Lowe's still has the strong stuff but who knows for how long. The thing that burned me about HD was the price was the same as before but half the strength. Lowe's has the same price but 29%.
$221.00 for the Boron Test Kit from Taylor KIT NUMBER: K-1541
Kinda pricey....looks like strips for me as I convert my pool
An additional benefit to adding the borax is that it wiped out all of the water bugs in my pool.
NOT the test kit you want. It will only test up to 15 ppm boron.Quote:
Originally Posted by cgc2
Proteam has a similar titration test kit that is designed to test Supreme (their brand of borax for pools) that is about $70. Any pool store that is a Proteam dealer should be able to order it. I have not been able to find it online. I have ordered one from our Proteam ditributor at work (it's backordered until July 19) so when it comes in I will post how it works. I have also talked to tech support at LaMotte and they told me that their borate test strips have a better color differentiation than the AquaChek. I have not been able to find the LaMotte test strips anywhere yet since they are a relatively new product but I am trying to find them so I can check them out. Perhaps if enough people contact LaMotte about the unavailability of the strips they might get them more widely distributed.
The Proteam test strips are rebranded AquaCheks. I do not know what the Bioguard ones are but I suspect they are the same since both strips are used in the repective companies strip readers for their in store water testing and all the strip readers I am familiar with use AquaChek strips.
Here in the Northeast we always have to raise the ph because the rain is so acidic. Would I get the same benefits simply using Borax to raise the ph after each rainstorm over time?
probbaly not since it will take about 97.5 lbs of borax (each box is 4.75 lbs so that is about 20.5 boxes) to raise your 26k gallon pool to 50 ppm borates if you are starting out with no borates in the water. You would also lose a little each time you backwash your DE filter. Using borax to raise pH will add a small amount of borates to the water but you will not get anywhere near the 30-50 ppm range that is required to see it's other benefits.
EDIT: you would also need just over 6 gallons of muriatic acid to neutralize the pH rise from the borax addition and create the boric acid/ borate buffer in the water.
[QUOTE=waterbear;34007]I will continue running my pool with the ajusted alkalinity at 97 ppm and see how long the pH remains stable and if I can repeat the results before I lower the ajusted alk to around 80. then I will see how it goes with the lower alk. I intend to post my results weekly. So far I think the addition of borates is a good idea. It certainly is not an expensive experiment when done with 20 mule team. It has only cost me about $35 for the 6 boxes of borax, 2 gallons of acid, and borate test strips!
In process of converting a 29k pool now...figuring close to 20 - 23 boxes for a 50 ppm...I will start with 15, and work my way up from there. Test strips should be ready for my pickup on Monday.
So far, 10 boxes, 2.5 gallons acid in pool that had readings of ph 7.4, TA 80 (unadjusted..69 adjusted), ch 360, cya 40 and building up to 70ppm, Salt 3000ppm and may add another bag.
Water sparkles and is very clear...going to take a test dip.
Waterbear I really dont know how you keep the borates high enough, every time I add Borax it rains and I need to add more. I have given up. I would be adding Borax twice a week and it would just take the place of the acid I have to add every two days. I am glad it seems to be working for some of you, but I have had no luck. I get to the 50 ppm and it rains and I am back down again. I think I will just keep adding acid and occasionally buy some polyquat 60. I think its an even trade.