Tonight I add salt to my non SWG above ground pool

My opinion on that is that this is such a small amount of salt that it really won't matter. There is already chlorine in the pool. The bottom track is designed to be protected against chlorine. The reason salt is corrosive is because of the chlorine in the salt molecule.

If we were talking about raising the salt content in our pool water to 20,000ppm or more (to the salinity levels in ocean water), then I too would be concerned about corrosion. But we're talking about 1200 - 1500ppm, which is half or less than the 3000 - 3700ppm that recommended by most SWGs.

I haven't found any corrosion warnings associated with any SWGs.

I think that at the levels we are talking about here, there are no drawbacks at all, only benefits.

Oh, and I purchased another bag of salt to put in the water this evening.

If it is aluminum, it can corrode. Some AG pool vendors may not guarantee the warranty, if you use a SWCG. You may want to check this.

For inground plaster pools with a concrete border make sure to wash any salt spilt on the concrete into the pool with a garden hose.

Hope this helps.

Pat

I really can't wait to do this. But I need to get a handle on BBB first.

We have a whole house water conditioner system which uses that salt, and it makes a huge difference in the house, so I'm sold on it being useful in the pool. I'll probably target the very low end so I don't have to worry about the possible corrosion issue. It sounds like even at 800ppm, there's some tangible benefit.

Mom2Czars, you can do this independently of the BBB system, as it will not have any effect on the rest of your pool chemistry. If you want salt in your pool , just put it there.

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Originally Posted by cleancloths

While it likely has done no harm, it will impact the overall water balance chemistry. Salts act as buffers
Sodium chloride does not act as a buffer at all, it posses no buffering ability whatsoever!....Buffers are composed of an acid and their correspnding ion such as carbonic acid/ carbonates and bicarbonates or boric acid/borates
and you should already be buffered, thus you will end up with slighly salty water - if you like that go for it, but I would never add a chemical that I really don't need.

There are millions of people that claim things do things that they really don't - that does not make them right.

I would be interested in seeing some technical documentation (not just opinions) that adding NaCl to a chlorine sanitized pool has value. Please let me know of a link where I can see that.
basically all it does is raise the salinity closer to the isoelectric point of the human body which will inrease comfort and feel less harse to the skin and eyes.
Thanks

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Hope this helps explain things a bit

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Originally Posted by cleancloths

Not sure I buy that it does anything for you, but your pool already has salt in it. Think about it for a few minutes.

You add chlorine as either sodium hypochlorite or calcium hypochlorite. You add borax, or baking soda or other pH up chemicals. Thus you have Cl ions an Na ions floating around in the water. That is exactly what you get when you add NaCl (salt). These ions are all dissolved in the water. When you add salt you are adding more which may or may not dissolve depending on what levels you all ready have.
considering that seawater has a salinity of about 35,000 ppm and that everything dissolves in it and that the most a pool with a SWG might have is 6000ppm your argument doesn't hold water, so to speak
You may actually create water chemistry problems
As you stated sodium and cloride ions already exists in the water, however, they are fairly neutral players in the water chemisty that goes on. All they do is add to the TDS which is not important as far as water balance chemistry goes.
, not to mention the potential for corrosion on certain metals
Here you MIGHT have a point but the actual fact is that years of use of SWG systems have not documented many corrosion problems in inground pools.
. Don't think it a good idea.

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Look at the installed base of SWGs worldwide, some have been in use for about 30 years now. the addtion of salt has had no bad effects and subjectively makes the water feel more comfortable.

I added a third bag of salt to the pool tonight. Oh my, it made such a huge difference!! I'll test the salinity tomorrow, but three bags should be about 1150ppm. We'll probably stay right here, as the water really feels wonderful at this salinity. :)

I have a 8500 gallon in ground fiberglass pool and I want to add salt.

Here's my question: since I have a problem with iron stains would it be ok to get this kind of salt:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...658&lpage=none

The thing I don't understand.. they all say pure salt so how can they be iron fighting, etc. ?

This may sound strange but I work in a hospital and the main ingredient in IV's for sick people is normal saline which is salt. I know there is some complicated chemistry going on here, but if its ok for us to have a certin amount inside our bodies, whouldn't it be ok to have it outside too, as in our pools?

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Originally Posted by Kimrst

This may sound strange but I work in a hospital and the main ingredient in IV's for sick people is normal saline which is salt. I know there is some complicated chemistry going on here, but if its ok for us to have a certin amount inside our bodies, whouldn't it be ok to have it outside too, as in our pools?

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In a word: yes. :)

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Originally Posted by Kimrst

This may sound strange but I work in a hospital and the main ingredient in IV's for sick people is normal saline which is salt. I know there is some complicated chemistry going on here, but if its ok for us to have a certin amount inside our bodies, whouldn't it be ok to have it outside too, as in our pools?

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Originally Posted by The Raddish

In a word: yes. :)

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and: NO :)

I am not a doctor or a nurse but I had a double lung transplant in 1995. Right now I am on IV antibiotics and found something to be very interesting on this same subject.

The pH of the .9% sodium chloride IV solution ranges from 4.5-7.0 (it states this on the bag). Anything under 7.0 is too acidic for the vinyl and can destroy it. Therefore it is not a safe assumption to state that if we put it into our bodies we can put it into the pool.

I do however like the idea of adding salt to the water. I plan on doing this in a few weeks when I am through with this treatment.

If you dissolve sodium chloride in deionized water and test the pH it will be neutral (pH 7) as will the deionized water! Salt will have NO effect on pH. The saline solution you are talking about is probably buffered and NOT pure sodium chloride to compensate for the acid leached from the PVC bag it is packaged in. Most medical saline is packed in PVC bags and then heat sterlized. The PVC leaches some acids into the saline and lowers the pH. This is why the pH is listed as being in the range of 4.5-7.0!

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Originally Posted by waterbear

The saline solution you are talking about is probably buffered and NOT pure sodium chloride to compensate for the acid leached from the PVC bag it is packaged in. Most medical saline is packed in PVC bags and then heat sterlized. The PVC leaches some acids into the saline and lowers the pH. This is why the pH is listed as being in the range of 4.5-7.0!

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This makes sense, thank you! I was wondering why they list a range of #'s for the pH rather than a particular number.

Any thoughts as to what the salt might do over a long frozen winter.

Saline in IV bags is buffered to a ph below 7. It is not pure salt and water. There are several reasons for the buffering. We often use saline to piggy back other meds in to the body so we buffer to prevent incompatibility with these drugs. When introducing fluids directly into the blood stream we are usually introducing them in to a vein. The venous red cell is carrying CO2 and slightly acetic itself so we want our IV to be slightly acetic.
Waterbear hit the nail on the head about leaching so we have to give a range not an single value.
There are more reasons but I won’t bore you.
I plan to add salt to my pool as soon I am sure I have my ALK under control.
Steve

Gerri asked...
"I have a 8500 gallon in ground fiberglass pool and I want to add salt.

Here's my question: since I have a problem with iron stains would it be ok to get this kind of salt:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...658&lpage=none

The thing I don't understand.. they all say pure salt so how can they be iron fighting, etc. ?"

Gerri, avoid this type of salt. The iron fighting salts have additives that is not good and should not be added. Use water softener salt without any additives and at least 99.5% pure sodium chloride.

Interestingly, I suggested this adding of salt to a non Salt Chlorine Generator pool, oh, say, LAST year? Glad the benefits are being realized.

Question to everyone though....why only add salt to 1000 ppm? The higher the salinity, the closer to your bodies salinity level, thus the more comfortable it will be.

Answer to the question about above ground pools and tracks, I disagree that you're only dealing with 1000 - 1500 ppm of salt. While this is true with the pool water, splash out water that ends up in the tracks will eventually evaporate, increasing the salinity level as the water evaporates. Realistically, your salt concentration of the water in the tracks can increase way past the 35000 ppm of ocean water.
I recommend that you occasionally wash down the sides of your pool or you will see corrosion over time. Regular rain fall or your sprinkler system hitting the outer pool walls will keep the salt concentration down.

Thanks Sean. I am glad I asked before getting that type of salt.

Added 160#s of salt to my 22K IG pool this weekend after reading posts and going back and forth on it. Didn't notice any significant difference or taste but I need to add at least another 20-40#s to reach 1000ppm. I didn't feel dried out after swimming all weekend but I do not know whether that is the salt or just my body getting used to the pool. Dumping and mixing the salt was fun though!!

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Answer to the question about above ground pools and tracks, I disagree that you're only dealing with 1000 - 1500 ppm of salt. While this is true with the pool water, splash out water that ends up in the tracks will eventually evaporate, increasing the salinity level as the water evaporates. Realistically, your salt concentration of the water in the tracks can increase way past the 35000 ppm of ocean water.
I recommend that you occasionally wash down the sides of your pool or you will see corrosion over time. Regular rain fall or your sprinkler system hitting the outer pool walls will keep the salt concentration down.

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I was thinking that sealing the bottom of the wall where it fits into the track with some Clear Silcone caulk would also be a good "ounce of prevention". It would keep the salt water penetration to a minimum.

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Originally Posted by Bleach=Chlorine?

Added 160#s of salt to my 22K IG pool this weekend after reading posts and going back and forth on it. Didn't notice any significant difference or taste but I need to add at least another 20-40#s to reach 1000ppm. I didn't feel dried out after swimming all weekend but I do not know whether that is the salt or just my body getting used to the pool. Dumping and mixing the salt was fun though!!

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I also have a 22K gallon pool and added double yours, 4x80# bags of 99.8% pure NaCl. I say go for it! I don't know what my salinity is, I went by Mike's bleachcalc, and talk here of desired numbers around 1200 - 1500 (and assumed my well water was close to 0).

I can occassionally, very slightly, taste salt. But normally not. I notice the water feels...different. I almost want to decribe it as slightly more viscous, but I know that's not possible. It's probably the 'softness' others describe. I also notice the water's easier on your eyes and contacts (if you wear yours swimming like I do). I can come up from underwater and instantly see clearly without the usual multiple blinking I must do.

Like I said, I added 4 -80 lb. bags. Just opened them and dumped them down the steps and my 3 year old and I had fun making underwater snowstorms. And in 15 minutes it was gone.

C.

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Originally Posted by Poolsean

Question to everyone though....why only add salt to 1000 ppm? The higher the salinity, the closer to your bodies salinity level, thus the more comfortable it will be.

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Sean, the theory was/is that SWG manufacturers usually recommend about 3000 ppm. Some of that salt is tied up when converted to chlorine, leaving a smaller part as true salinity. Therefore, putting only the amount in that would match what is present in an SWG pool minus the converted amount would most closely replicate the feel and ability to taste salt in SWG pools.

Please feel free to shoot this full of holes :)

Interesting thread.

Does anyone know how high the salt content needs to be to keep the water freezing? Are there any real pros or cons on whether or not your pool water freezes during the winter? I am in New England where it gets pretty cold in January...

The pool is 9000 gal gunite in Hawaii, at an elevation of 1000ft so nowhere near the ocean. The salt measured 400 ppm before putting in additional salt to raise it to it to 1400 ppm using Ben's calculator. Now several weeks later a Taylor Saltwater kit is showing 3000 ppm (15 drops)? But TDS is registering 1800 ppm when it was 560 ppm before. This is weird!

The water feels great, no stinging of eyes, and virtually no salty taste.

But where did this additional salt come from or is the reading or kit bad? Is it bad for the pool to be at 3000ppm?

Use Wal-Mart's liquid bleach, muriatic acid, baking soda, the blue stuff, and Algaecide 60. Have always had an iron problem from flying red-dirt (ferric oxide AKA rust) but this is under control.

Temp 80 F
pH 7.4
Alk 100
Cl 6.0
Hardness 375
CYA 50
Salt 3000?
TDS 1800
Pool Crystal Clear

Help!

Well, I just added 120# of solar salt a few hours ago. The taste is very slightly salty we think, but maybe just our imagination? Anyway, DH came home from a hot, dusty afternoon in the field on a broken down tractor with no a/c - jumped in and immediately said, "What did you do to the pool?" Summary: I big thumbs up! (I opened my eyes underwater with no stinging, my hair is NICE afterwards)

I added 100# of 99.8% pure salt to my 8500 gal. pool yesterday. Don't have a test kit to measure the salinity but I noticed the difference in the water immediately. The pool definitely has a slight salt taste but not at all bothersome. I liked the way my skin and hair felt afterwards and think I'll enjoy opening my eyes underwater without the stinging.;)

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Originally Posted by MassAttack

Does anyone know how high the salt content needs to be to keep the water freezing? Are there any real pros or cons on whether or not your pool water freezes during the winter? I am in New England where it gets pretty cold in January...

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This is a good question... Does anyone know the answer to this? My mother in law also brougt it up when we told her we put salt in the pool.....

How long does it take for the salt to disolve. The salt pellets look pretty big.

At a guess, I'd say we'd have to increase the salinity much beyond what the 1000 - 2000ppm most of us have been targeting.

I remember from college physics class that the absolute minimum freezing point of salt water is around -20° C. This is only at the point of maximum salinity in which the water can not possibly dissolve any more salt, which is somewhere around 20% salt. These are guesstimate numbers vaguely remembered through the fog of college labs and tests. I don't remember the exact values, but I'm sure I'm close.

Otherwise, any increase in the salinity of water will drop the freezing point by some amount, but I'm not sure if it is on a linear scale or not. Those of us who have added salt to our water will detect that our water will not freeze at 0°C, but maybe at -2°C or maybe a little warmer or colder. In other words, we haven't added enough water to truly make a difference in the freezing point, but we have lowered it somewhat, even if minimally.

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Originally Posted by bryjen

How long does it take for the salt to disolve. The salt pellets look pretty big.

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About 15-20 minutes per 40 pound bag. It can get sharp as it dissolves too.. I have a cut on my toe and several on my hands from doing it yesterday. My toddler thought it was ice and put a piece in his mouth :eek: then removed it quickly!

"the theory was/is that SWG manufacturers usually recommend about 3000 ppm. Some of that salt is tied up when converted to chlorine, leaving a smaller part as true salinity. Therefore, putting only the amount in that would match what is present in an SWG pool minus the converted amount would most closely replicate the feel and ability to taste salt in SWG pools."
Very little salt is consumed in the process of producing chlorine. The higher salt level creates a conductivity in the water that is needed to pass the electricity within the cell.

"Does anyone know how high the salt content needs to be to keep the water freezing? Are there any real pros or cons on whether or not your pool water freezes during the winter? I am in New England where it gets pretty cold in January..."
At 3000 ppm, the water will still freeze but instead of 32 degrees, it will freeze at about 30.7 degrees. No significant difference.

"The pool is 9000 gal gunite in Hawaii, at an elevation of 1000ft so nowhere near the ocean. The salt measured 400 ppm before putting in additional salt to raise it to it to 1400 ppm using Ben's calculator. Now several weeks later a Taylor Saltwater kit is showing 3000 ppm (15 drops)? But TDS is registering 1800 ppm when it was 560 ppm before. This is weird!"
hmmm, bad reagents or incorrect testing procedure. It's impossible for the TDS to be lower than the salinity. Salinity adds to the TDS reading. There is nothing wrong with maintaining 3000 ppm of salt. When you get into the higher salinity levels of 6000 or greater, it can cause corrosion to metals in the water.

FYI I dumped about 5 lbs into my skimmer, to see how fast it dissolved. It didn't dissolve all that fast (about 5 minutes) and I did not want to sit out there for a hour watching salt dissolve. I said "screw it" and filled the *entire* skimmer with salt, it probably held about 20 lbs. It was so full that salt was coming out of the skimmer :-) I was sure I would starve the pump but it just took more water from the main drain. anyway that meant I could dump in half a bag, go inside, and 10-20 mins later come back out and do it again. Much less work.

I used course solar salt, which was a course flake. It was much smaller (and easier to dissolve) than the pellets. I dumped one 40lb bag at a time in...about 2 foot from the discharge. Then I just aimed the discharge down on top of the salt and almost all of it mixed up in ten minutes or so.


dan

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Originally Posted by Poolsean

"the theory was/is that SWG manufacturers usually recommend about 3000 ppm. Some of that salt is tied up when converted to chlorine, leaving a smaller part as true salinity. Therefore, putting only the amount in that would match what is present in an SWG pool minus the converted amount would most closely replicate the feel and ability to taste salt in SWG pools."

Very little salt is consumed in the process of producing chlorine. The higher salt level creates a conductivity in the water that is needed to pass the electricity within the cell.

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Thanks Sean. Very interesting to learn.

The two bags only took about 20 minutes or so to dissolve. I just kicked it around with my feet.

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Originally Posted by csevel

The two bags only took about 20 minutes or so to dissolve. I just kicked it around with my feet.

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So what do you think? How does your water feel?

Am I the only moron that can't feel the difference in salinity between 1000 to 3000?

My non-swg pool has a salinity of 1000. When I swam in a swg pool, I am not sure if I could tell the difference.

A whole house water softener however is very noticeable to me and is too slimy.

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Originally Posted by hulla

Am I the only moron that can't feel the difference in salinity between 1000 to 3000?

My non-swg pool has a salinity of 1000. When I swam in a swg pool, I am not sure if I could tell the difference.

A whole house water softener however is very noticeable to me and is too slimy.

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That is because adding salt to your pool DOES NOT soften the water. In a water softener salt is used to charge the ion exhange resin with sodium. When the water flows through it the resin exhanges the sodium for calcium and magnesium in the water. The resin is then recharged with sodium and the calcium and magnisium are washed out to waste so the process can start over. This is what softens the water. Just adding salt to water adds sodium in addtion to the calcium and magnesium already in the water. It has no softening effect whatsoever. The main advantage of adding salt to the pool is to raise the isoelectic point of the water closer to that of the human body. This makes the water less 'irritating".

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Originally Posted by waterbear

That is because adding salt to your pool DOES NOT soften the water. In a water softener salt is used to charge the ion exhange resin with sodium. When the water flows through it the resin exhanges the sodium for calcium and magnesium in the water. The resin is then recharged with sodium and the calcium and magnisium are washed out to waste so the process can start over. This is what softens the water. Just adding salt to water adds sodium in addtion to the calcium and magnesium already in the water. It has no softening effect whatsoever. The main advantage of adding salt to the pool is to raise the isoelectic point of the water closer to that of the human body. This makes the water less 'irritating".

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Would it be possible to soften the water in the pool? Could one rig up a water softener to the pool and let it cycle for a period of time in order to do this? I can only imagine that you would need to replenish the salt alot, but would anything else be necessary?

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Originally Posted by sevver

Would it be possible to soften the water in the pool? Could one rig up a water softener to the pool and let it cycle for a period of time in order to do this? I can only imagine that you would need to replenish the salt alot, but would anything else be necessary?

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It might not be desirable to soften the water in the pool. If you have a plaster pool you NEED the calcium hardness to protect the plaster. Also if you have grouted tilework or a heater you, once again, need some hardness in the water or the water will begin to leach out calcium and other metals from the pool, heat exchanger, etc. There is also some indication (but no conclusive data either way) that calium might be needed in a fiberglass pool to help prevent metal staining and damage to the gelcoat finish. Vinyl pools most likely do not need any calcium in them but the effects of totally soft water on the lines is, as far as I know, an unknown variable. Most fill water does have some calcium hardness to it. Water coming out of a softener might have none.

I LOVE the feel of the water. Less burning of the eyes. Hair easier to comb out. Slight salt taste...but I'm not into drinking pool water so I don't really care.:p