Salt Water Chlorine Generator for New Pool Build

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Originally Posted by SunnyOptimism

And since we're doing the unsolicited opinion thing :) I would also add that you consider an acid pump, like the IntelliPH from Pentair, as part of your equipment pad. SWCG pools tend to have constantly rising pH which, especially in the beginning, means very frequent acid additions. An acid pump will also add to your "peace of mind / ease of use" factor.

I have an IC40 and it's worked just great for me. I'm kind of surprised your not going more with Pentair since you're going to use their IntelliTouch/EasyTouch control system. Usually Pentair offers a three year warranty if you bundle three pieces of their equipment in a single order, otherwise it's only 1 year. Would you be willing to share your pool build and equipment specs just so we all can "kick the tires" ;)

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I have to disagree. While it is true many SWCG owners have a rising pH problem, not all of us do. In fact, I NEVER do. You can always install an acid pump later if you find it's a problem. You WILL have rising acid when your pool is new, but if you just buy a couple of $10 floating chlorinators and fill them with Tri-Chlor tabs, they will control your rising pH during the 6-8 week curing period and add some of the CYA you need, too. You CAN use chlorine with an SWCG without a problem.

It's too easy to get into the buy, buy, buy mode when it's new and while we can frequently all be equipment junkies, it's better to learn and master the BBB method FIRST and use the equipment to augment that, not replace it.

In my case the strips usually read about 200-300ppm higher than what my SWCG reports. I figure this is close enough to get me in range.

You just talked me out of getting the Taylor kit. :D

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Originally Posted by CarlD

I have to disagree. While it is true many SWCG owners have a rising pH problem, not all of us do. In fact, I NEVER do. You can always install an acid pump later if you find it's a problem. You WILL have rising acid when your pool is new, but if you just buy a couple of $10 floating chlorinators and fill them with Tri-Chlor tabs, they will control your rising pH during the 6-8 week curing period and add some of the CYA you need, too. You CAN use chlorine with an SWCG without a problem.

It's too easy to get into the buy, buy, buy mode when it's new and while we can frequently all be equipment junkies, it's better to learn and master the BBB method FIRST and use the equipment to augment that, not replace it.

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I agree with Carl.

I seemed to have found the sweet spot with TA and borates in my pool (TA about 80, borates about 60). This is the second season I haven't had to add a single drop of acid to adjust pH. It seems to level off at 7.5-7.6 and stays there the whole season.

Have to go to church but I'll add this to all you acid-pump haters :p - vinyl pools are a very different beast than gunite/plaster pools. Also, east coast fill water is very different than western water. My fill pH is 8.0 on a good day, my fill TA is 120ppm minimum and my CH is 280ppm. That plus plaster means an ever rising pH.

Acid pumps help a lot with that rise and I have used borates quite successfully. I totally agree with the "keep it simple, stupid" principle but I am definitely planning on an acid pump install in the near future.

Just my $0.02 opinion....

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Originally Posted by SunnyOptimism

Have to go to church but I'll add this to all you acid-pump haters :p - vinyl pools are a very different beast than gunite/plaster pools. Also, east coast fill water is very different than western water. My fill pH is 8.0 on a good day, my fill TA is 120ppm minimum and my CH is 280ppm. That plus plaster means an ever rising pH.

Acid pumps help a lot with that rise and I have used borates quite successfully. I totally agree with the "keep it simple, stupid" principle but I am definitely planning on an acid pump install in the near future.

Just my $0.02 opinion....

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Touché :D

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Originally Posted by SunnyOptimism

Have to go to church but I'll add this to all you acid-pump haters :p - vinyl pools are a very different beast than gunite/plaster pools. Also, east coast fill water is very different than western water. My fill pH is 8.0 on a good day, my fill TA is 120ppm minimum and my CH is 280ppm. That plus plaster means an ever rising pH.

Acid pumps help a lot with that rise and I have used borates quite successfully. I totally agree with the "keep it simple, stupid" principle but I am definitely planning on an acid pump install in the near future.

Just my $0.02 opinion....

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This is just silly and a bit insulting.

I don't hate acid pumps any more than I hate filters other than sand filters. And while I am a vinyl pool owner, it doesn't mean, after a dozen years or more at PF, that I haven't seen hundreds, even thousands of threads on the issues of masonry pools. There's lots of ways to achieve an end and I'm just not a big fan of spending money when it may not be needed. If Toybuilder finds that pH is rising, then it may be appropriate to add an acid pump. But to assume one is needed before it is established may well be wasted money. Toybuilder hasn't given us a reading on the local fill water so its pH may well be normal, not excessively high. (Which, of course, makes me wonder about your water works managers, who let public water go out with high pH.)

And if there's one philosophy that has always flowed through PF, it's that wasting money on your pool isn't a good thing.

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Originally Posted by CarlD

This is just silly and a bit insulting.

I don't hate acid pumps any more than I hate filters other than sand filters. And while I am a vinyl pool owner, it doesn't mean, after a dozen years or more at PF, that I haven't seen hundreds, even thousands of threads on the issues of masonry pools. There's lots of ways to achieve an end and I'm just not a big fan of spending money when it may not be needed. If Toybuilder finds that pH is rising, then it may be appropriate to add an acid pump. But to assume one is needed before it is established may well be wasted money. Toybuilder hasn't given us a reading on the local fill water so its pH may well be normal, not excessively high. (Which, of course, makes me wonder about your water works managers, who let public water go out with high pH.)

And if there's one philosophy that has always flowed through PF, it's that wasting money on your pool isn't a good thing.

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@CarlD,

My post was written in jest and not intended to offend. That said, I am sorry for offending you.

I agree with your position that all pools are different and one should exercise caution before wasting money on unnecessary equipment. I have waited a full swim season before I feel comfortable justifying my eventual purchase of an IntelliPH. I'm glad I waited to get to know my pool water life cycle. I was only trying to help out @Toybuilder to consider potential options, nothing more.

Thank you for your experience and willingness to share it for the benefit of others.

SunnyOptimism, can you tell me a little about the EasyTouch? What's good and what you think is bad? We've used the Aqualink RS previously and loved it. Hoping this is similar.

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Originally Posted by CarlD

Toybuilder hasn't given us a reading on the local fill water so its pH may well be normal, not excessively high. (Which, of course, makes me wonder about your water works managers, who let public water go out with high pH.)

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They can't lower it too much because it causes plumbing to corrode. Here's the quick summary -

Arizona primarily steals....ummm, I mean "borrows" water from the Colorado River (surface water) and produces water from a few deep aquifers. The water is all fed through something called the CAP (Central Arizona Project) which, like California, is a series of large reservoirs and aqueducts to deliver water to us desert-dwellers. The water from the CAP is shipped down to Tucson BUT, before it gets here, it is injected back into the ground and pumped back up again before processing and delivery. This process of injection makes the water's mineral balance and pH closer to local conditions and saves a lot of water from evaporation.

Because of this and other factors, if you lower the pH of the municipal water too much relative to the local ground water, you run the risk of destroying household plumbing by, in effect, creating an electrochemical cell. Also, pH 8.0 water is not at all unusual in the West. The water here is "sweet" compared to the more acidic nature of water found east of the Mississippi. We also have substantial differences in soil composition which is why western water is heavy in calcium (and bad for making pizza dough) and eastern water is heavy in iron (great for pizza dough)....This is from an Italian boy from Long Island (me) who sorely misses his NY pizza :(

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Originally Posted by Toybuilder

SunnyOptimism, can you tell me a little about the EasyTouch? What's good and what you think is bad? We've used the Aqualink RS previously and loved it. Hoping this is similar.

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I have an 8-channel unit (meaning you can program up to 8 circuits with it). I use mine to run the Spa, Pool, High-Speed setting on VS pump, Waterfall pump, lights, etc. It's not fancy and I like it that way. It's a basic 4-line LCD display and it communicates with the IntelliTouch panel by RF link (no Blutetooth, WiFi, etc). So while it may not have all the gizmos and functionality that the more advanced interfaces have (like the ScreenLogic system), I'm very happy with the more solid, low tech approach (and it's water proof so I could drop it in the pool as opposed to my iPad...).

Downsides - the setup and programming of it is a little arcane but not impossible to understand. So if you're really geeked-out by doing automation and checking your pool parameter via iPhone apps, the EasyTouch is not for you. It has a limited range unless you buy the powered antenna for it (which I have) so if your electronics are far from the house, it won't work without the additional boost from the antenna.

All-in-all, I really like it and it saves me a trip out to the equipment pad if I want to turn on the pool lights or get the spa running.

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Originally Posted by SunnyOptimism

I have an 8-channel unit (meaning you can program up to 8 circuits with it). I use mine to run the Spa, Pool, High-Speed setting on VS pump, Waterfall pump, lights, etc. It's not fancy and I like it that way. It's a basic 4-line LCD display and it communicates with the IntelliTouch panel by RF link (no Blutetooth, WiFi, etc). So while it may not have all the gizmos and functionality that the more advanced interfaces have (like the ScreenLogic system), I'm very happy with the more solid, low tech approach (and it's water proof so I could drop it in the pool as opposed to my iPad...).

Downsides - the setup and programming of it is a little arcane but not impossible to understand. So if you're really geeked-out by doing automation and checking your pool parameter via iPhone apps, the EasyTouch is not for you. It has a limited range unless you buy the powered antenna for it (which I have) so if your electronics are far from the house, it won't work without the additional boost from the antenna.

All-in-all, I really like it and it saves me a trip out to the equipment pad if I want to turn on the pool lights or get the spa running.

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It sounds a lot like the RS unit we had. I just looked at the bid and it doesn't say how many channels, but since we have more than 4 things to control I'm assuming it's 8. Will have to make sure, though. It also looks like we're getting the wall mounted controller AND the wireless. :) Will have to confirm that too. Do you happen to know the range of the wireless controller? I just looked thru the brochure and I didn't see anything.

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Originally Posted by SunnyOptimism

They can't lower it too much because it causes plumbing to corrode. Here's the quick summary -

Arizona primarily steals....ummm, I mean "borrows" water from the Colorado River (surface water) and produces water from a few deep aquifers. The water is all fed through something called the CAP (Central Arizona Project) which, like California, is a series of large reservoirs and aqueducts to deliver water to us desert-dwellers. The water from the CAP is shipped down to Tucson BUT, before it gets here, it is injected back into the ground and pumped back up again before processing and delivery. This process of injection makes the water's mineral balance and pH closer to local conditions and saves a lot of water from evaporation.

Because of this and other factors, if you lower the pH of the municipal water too much relative to the local ground water, you run the risk of destroying household plumbing by, in effect, creating an electrochemical cell. Also, pH 8.0 water is not at all unusual in the West. The water here is "sweet" compared to the more acidic nature of water found east of the Mississippi. We also have substantial differences in soil composition which is why western water is heavy in calcium (and bad for making pizza dough) and eastern water is heavy in iron (great for pizza dough)....This is from an Italian boy from Long Island (me) who sorely misses his NY pizza :(

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OK. If you have to do without the joy of NY/NJ pizza, you're already doing enough penance!

While I've found in the 21 years I'm here that there's a lot more good things about NJ than people realize, it's no secret the pizza and bagels you get here are an extension of NYC's--the best!

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Originally Posted by CarlD

OK. If you have to do without the joy of NY/NJ pizza, you're already doing enough penance!

While I've found in the 21 years I'm here that there's a lot more good things about NJ than people realize, it's no secret the pizza and bagels you get here are an extension of NYC's--the best!

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Ok, you two are making me hungry...missed lunch today.

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Originally Posted by Toybuilder

It sounds a lot like the RS unit we had. I just looked at the bid and it doesn't say how many channels, but since we have more than 4 things to control I'm assuming it's 8. Will have to make sure, though. It also looks like we're getting the wall mounted controller AND the wireless. :) Will have to confirm that too. Do you happen to know the range of the wireless controller? I just looked thru the brochure and I didn't see anything.

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In attached photo I'm standing at my side door (kitchen) and I'm ~ 40ft or so to the wireless antenna (green circle/blue arrow). The equipment pad is around the corner (red arrow) behind the casita.

I think my PB said it can do 100ft easy but from inside the house it can get dodgy if you have walls with lots of pipes and wiring.

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/...psud0nexf9.jpg

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Originally Posted by CarlD

OK. If you have to do without the joy of NY/NJ pizza, you're already doing enough penance!

While I've found in the 21 years I'm here that there's a lot more good things about NJ than people realize, it's no secret the pizza and bagels you get here are an extension of NYC's--the best!

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I have been in exile from my beloved NY pizza since 2009....my existence is all muted tones and shades of grey :(

I actually considered ordering from NYCFlyingPizza.com, but two pies would have cost me $250 based on their cost and quick delivery method. I could not bear to spend that much on pizza.....

San Francisco sour dough makes a delicious crust. Too bad they can't figure out how to make the filling! :(

I was stunned in Chicago to have a Giordano Deep Dish pizza. No way in h*** it can it possibly be called "pizza", no way. However, it IS ambrosia for the gods on Olympus! :D

NY pizza, really??? Doesn't compare to deep dish in Chicago! Also, you may have us on bagels, but we have the best hot dogs anywhere!
Ok, Carl. Cross-post. You are forgiven. Ambrosia it is!

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Originally Posted by FormerBromineUser

NY pizza, really??? Doesn't compare to deep dish in Chicago! Also, you may have us on bagels, but we have the best hot dogs anywhere!

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Ahhhh, pizza...it'll derail a forum thread every time :p

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Originally Posted by SunnyOptimism

In attached photo I'm standing at my side door (kitchen) and I'm ~ 40ft or so to the wireless antenna (green circle/blue arrow). The equipment pad is around the corner (red arrow) behind the casita.

I think my PB said it can do 100ft easy but from inside the house it can get dodgy if you have walls with lots of pipes and wiring.

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I don't think we'll need the booster. The wireless controller will only be used when we're outside using the spa, and we'll be well within 100ft. But, good to know the antenna exists. It's not even listed on their brochure.

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Originally Posted by Toybuilder

I don't think we'll need the booster. The wireless controller will only be used when we're outside using the spa, and we'll be well within 100ft. But, good to know the antenna exists. It's not even listed on their brochure.

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Yeah, like the IntelliWand and half a dozen other things that Pentair never tells you about. My PB is a Pentair reseller for this area and he knew all the inside scoop on the various Pentair gizmos. It's not hidden per se, it's just Pentair, like any major manufacturer, wants to steer the consumer as much as possible through their distribution channel. So for the casual buyer, you really have to dig to get the full picture.

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Originally Posted by FormerBromineUser

NY pizza, really??? Doesn't compare to deep dish in Chicago! Also, you may have us on bagels, but we have the best hot dogs anywhere!
Ok, Carl. Cross-post. You are forgiven. Ambrosia it is!

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Giordano's can call it "Sicilian Ambrosia" but it ain't pizza--and I can't wait to get it again in just a few weeks! :D

There's LOTS of good food in Chicago...lots! I'd never say otherwise. I'm no hot dog connoisseur so I'll wimp out on THAT argument!

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Originally Posted by SunnyOptimism

Yeah, like the IntelliWand and half a dozen other things that Pentair never tells you about. My PB is a Pentair reseller for this area and he knew all the inside scoop on the various Pentair gizmos. It's not hidden per se, it's just Pentair, like any major manufacturer, wants to steer the consumer as much as possible through their distribution channel. So for the casual buyer, you really have to dig to get the full picture.

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Thanks for all your info on the EasyTouch. I feel a bit more at ease with it since it seems similar to the RS. May hit you up again once I get to programming. :)

Well, I'm checking out until after dinner. You guys are killing me with all this talk about pizzas and hotdogs. Thank goodness dinner will be early tonight.

Yeah, I was thinking about it too, watching the NYG/Dallas game. Then came a commercial for Papa John's pizza and I completely lost my appetite for pizza....

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Originally Posted by Toybuilder

Thanks for all your info on the EasyTouch. I feel a bit more at ease with it since it seems similar to the RS. May hit you up again once I get to programming. :)

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Anytime. If the Pool Forum god (aka, @PoolDoc) decides to enable private messaging, then we could take a lot of the incidental questions off the thread. Until then, you'll just have to post. I think my profile allows for vCard access but I'm not sure....

Ok, feel much better now. My belly is full. But those pizzas still sound good. :)

To update you, I emailed Poolsean privately and discussed the benefits of the AutoPilot vs the AquaRite. Wow, there's a lot to sort through. Obviously it leaned heavily on the AutoPilot. I'm going to review with the builder to help us decide which would be the best for our situation. However, my big concern is still the price.

Good. I guess both Carl and I contacted Sean off-forum. He will tell you the truth so you can decide. Hey, SO, it's slow season. We won't get lost in a side-tracked thread here! Enjoying Dungeness Crab ravioli and some red as I write!

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Originally Posted by FormerBromineUser

Good. I guess both Carl and I contacted Sean off-forum. He will tell you the truth so you can decide. Hey, SO, it's slow season. We won't get lost in a side-tracked thread here! Enjoying Dungeness Crab ravioli and some red as I write!

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Hahaha..."slow season" "pool closing" you guys are losing me with all this Greek you're speaking. While you were eating your ravioli, I just enjoyed an awesome bowl of homemade chili (made with Hatch chilis) and great bottle of local brew beer....then I took a quick dip in my pool to cool off from the chili heat :p

See you all on the threads...

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Originally Posted by SunnyOptimism

Hahaha..."slow season" "pool closing" you guys are losing me with all this Greek you're speaking. While you were eating your ravioli, I just enjoyed an awesome bowl of homemade chili (made with Hatch chilis) and great bottle of local brew beer....then I took a quick dip in my pool to cool off from the chili heat :p

See you all on the threads...

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You're just evil.... :p :D

I just came in from testing to the pool; water temp is 65 :sad:

No pool at all...just a framework. But who wants to swim outside in NJ in October?

You got us beat on the sob-stories on this one, Carl!

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Originally Posted by formerbromineuser

you got us beat on the sob-stories on this one, carl!

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;););)

Made any decisions?

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Originally Posted by CarlD

You really need to talk to an expert on this. The Controller is the power supply and programming box. Auto Pilot makes more than one. The manifold is simply (in short) plumbing to hold the salt cell and must have a PS and controller. I have the 75003 controller. There are others.

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Well, I’m pretty disappointed in Hayward’s customer service. I contacted their customer support this morning hoping to get a comparison from their side between the AquaRite and the AutoPilot as Poolsean had done.

The rep told me to contact my local retailer which I did using their “finder” on their website. I wasn't satisfied with the locals answers, so I emailed him back to ask for a reputable online dealer or a sales rep that would know the ins and outs of the AquaRite. The reply I got was insulting. He emailed back with a link to the “finder”. I wanted to send back a reply telling him that I went with the AutoPilot because of his lack of service.

Unfortunately, I think we’ll be going with the AquaRite. Not that I think the Hayward is an bad product, I'm just not happy with their service. However, if in 4 maybe 5 years and the cell dies, can I re-plumb to fit the AutoPilot? Would the wiring be any different? Do I know what I’m talking about? No. But, I’m hoping you or maybe CarlD would? :)

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Originally Posted by Toybuilder

Well, I’m pretty disappointed in Hayward’s customer service. I contacted their customer support this morning hoping to get a comparison from their side between the AquaRite and the AutoPilot as Poolsean had done.

The rep told me to contact my local retailer which I did using their “finder” on their website. I wasn't satisfied with the locals answers, so I emailed him back to ask for a reputable online dealer or a sales rep that would know the ins and outs of the AquaRite. The reply I got was insulting. He emailed back with a link to the “finder”. I wanted to send back a reply telling him that I went with the AutoPilot because of his lack of service.

Unfortunately, I think we’ll be going with the AquaRite. Not that I think the Hayward is an bad product, I'm just not happy with their service. However, if in 4 maybe 5 years and the cell dies, can I re-plumb to fit the AutoPilot? Would the wiring be any different? Do I know what I’m talking about? No. But, I’m hoping you or maybe CarlD would? :)

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I believe you said you were going with the Pentair IntelliTouch control panel. The IntelliTouch can be wired to run the AutoPilot if you decided to switch to AutoPilot. The IntelliTouch is fairly versatile as it can interface with lots of SWG cells. The pin-outs for wiring the various cells is in the IntelliTouch Installation manual.

As for plumbing modification, not totally sure on that front. You'd have to download the different installation manuals for each cell you're considering and take a look at the various plumbing diagrams to know how much clearance you need for each. Some have specific requirements, for example, the Pentair IC40 says it requires a minimum of a 12-in straight run of pipe BEFORE the cell so that the flow sensor is not thrown off by turbulence from a pipe bend. Whether or not that is absolutely true is a bit debatable, but if the installation manual says it, then it's probably best to follow what they ask for unless your equipment pad is too crowded to comply.

I feel for you! When we were going through our pool build, my PB liked to use all Pentair equipment but I asked him for information on other suppliers and products. He complied and gave me his pro's/con's list for each and what he liked and disliked and then I spent a good solid week's worth of late nights trying to sift through all the literature online. I eventually went all Pentair because I really couldn't parse all the nuances (and I was not a PF member at the time) and my PB is a good guy so I trusted his instinct and preference. So far, my equipment has been running just fine. I hope your search goes well!

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Originally Posted by Toybuilder

Well, I’m pretty disappointed in Hayward’s customer service. I contacted their customer support this morning hoping to get a comparison from their side between the AquaRite and the AutoPilot as Poolsean had done.

The rep told me to contact my local retailer which I did using their “finder” on their website. I wasn't satisfied with the locals answers, so I emailed him back to ask for a reputable online dealer or a sales rep that would know the ins and outs of the AquaRite. The reply I got was insulting. He emailed back with a link to the “finder”. I wanted to send back a reply telling him that I went with the AutoPilot because of his lack of service.

Unfortunately, I think we’ll be going with the AquaRite. Not that I think the Hayward is an bad product, I'm just not happy with their service. However, if in 4 maybe 5 years and the cell dies, can I re-plumb to fit the AutoPilot? Would the wiring be any different? Do I know what I’m talking about? No. But, I’m hoping you or maybe CarlD would? :)

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Given your experience with Hayward's customer service I'm surprised you're still going with the Aqua Rite. Is it just a question of price?

It would be pretty expensive to go with the Aqua Rite then switch to the Autopilot in a few years. I'd go with the one you're more comfortable with from the start, even if it cost a bit more up front.

In my case I didn't do any research comparing the two. I went with a pool builder I liked best, who happened to include the Aqua Rite instead of the Autopilot.

I have contacted tech support a couple times and was happy with the service, but that was some years ago. I'm not sure if that was when Aqua Rite was under Goldline or Hayward.

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Originally Posted by JimK

Given your experience with Hayward's customer service I'm surprised you're still going with the Aqua Rite. Is it just a question of price?

It would be pretty expensive to go with the Aqua Rite then switch to the Autopilot in a few years. I'd go with the one you're more comfortable with from the start, even if it cost a bit more up front.

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Seems to me that you have made some pretty good points here, Jim.

I agree that switching down the road will be expensive. As for wiring and plumbing, unless you have a really cramped space, it should be the least of your issues. My Autopilot is set to run on a 220v circuit with a heavy 240v twist-lock plug identical to what I have for the pump. A new SWCG would just need to plug into that. The plumbing? It's simple Schedule 40 PVC cut-and-glue work. If you've never done PVC work it may seem intimidating, but it's easy.

I'm surprised at the response you got from Hayward tech support, though they might not have liked being compared to Autopilot. I never get that. Why wouldn't a seller want the chance to show how their product is a better purchase than the competitor's? However, the Hayward is sold all over so someone should be able to help. I'd call the various online pool dealers, too. Most should carry it. Here, in NJ, just about every dealer sells them, but we have a lot of pool dealers.

Well, I guess I haven’t really made up my mind yet. To tell the truth, it’s now a combination of things. One is the price, about $500 more. CFO Wifey is having an issue already. Two, the builder is more familiar with the Hayward as he used to install those before the Intellichlor, and lastly, I’m not sure we need something this “upscale” just for peace of mind. Guess that would be 4 things if you include my wife. :)

I’ll continue to do a little research. We haven’t come to a point where a decision has to be made yet, contract is still on hold.

Sometimes it's best to go with what your trusted pro knows. And, of course, the CFO's judgement is critical to any firm.