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Thanks! I bought 4 quarts of polyquat on Amazon. I hope the link you gave me went through the forum!
I vacuumed the pool to get rid of the auto-cover installation crud and backwashed before putting in DE. The backwash water was dark burnt-orange. Yuck.
Should I add more DE tomorrow night? How do I know when to stop adding it daily?
I will report chlorine results Friday morning.
BTW, thanks for cleaning up my signature. Much better!
Orange backwash = iron in the water
Wonder how that got there? Am I forgetting something from earlier: are you using well water or other iron contaminated fill water?
DE + polyquat + continuous filtration + backwash as needed + gradually chlorination = probably the best way to remove the iron.
We used our well water for part of it; 1 tanker load of Chicago water and 3 tanker loads of municipal well water from a local water tower. You could see the brown tinge in the water as it was filling. Sent a video of the steps and pool on page 3 of thread. The white steps in the beginning showed the color. 4 quarts of HEDP probably didn't hurt.....
I am proceeding with the plan, but I have a question that I don't want to confuse with tomorrow's test report. My pressure reading tonight after last night's backwash and addition of 2C DE had only gone up 3-1/2 psi. Not wanting to risk backwashing out any of my first 2C dichlor addition and confuse my results, I decided to first add the nightly 2C of DE and let it sit for a bit just in case the psi went up. 45 minutes later, my PSI had risen to 30! Could the DE have acted THAT quickly? The filter was also leaking at the top. I did a backwash and I am now down to 20-1/2. The backwash water seemed clear or maybe light grey although it was getting dark so it was hard to tell. It was definitely not dark orange like last night. I did NOT add more DE after backwashing, just the 2C dichlor.
I don't think you need to add the DE nightly. Just when you backwash it out.
What he said . . .
However, when the DE plugs, and pressure begins to rise, it can rise rather quickly to the maximum possible.
After adding 2C dichlor at dusk.
PM:
pH 7.4
C 0
TA 190
CH 90
CYA 0
AM: same except I got 180 for TA
Add 6 cups tonlght.
After adding 6C dichlor and waiting an hour:
PM:
FC: 5.4
CC: 0.8
pH: 8.0
TA 200
CH: 90
CYA: 0
AM: (I did not get up at dawn but the auto-cover was closed)
FC 5.0
CC: 0.8
pH: 7.4 (but if I let it sit for a while it rises to 8.0 so maybe that was issue last night?)
TA: 200
CH: 90
CYA: 0 (but the mixture looked cloudier than last night)
Read the pH when you do the test instead of letting it sit. Also, no need to test the CYA so often or you will run out of reagents. Once per week while you are using dichlor is probably plenty often enough.
Thanks! That helps. Now I just need to know what to do tonight! :-)
Leave the cover off, if you can. And add some muriatic acid, to lower the pH.Quote:
Originally Posted by BromineUser
Read these pages:http://pool9.net/ma/ (Using muriatic acid safely)
http://pool9.net/alk-step/ (Step by step guide to lowering alkalinity)
Will do, thanks. I was wondering if TA was next...! Should I just use the pool calculator for maintaining my FC for now, rather than bugging you about it? If so, I will continue using dichlor until I get a CYA reading (unless you tell me otherwise).
Really, what I want is for you to sort of keep it in your head. That sounds a bit hard, and probably is, right now. But you'll get use to it, and doing so will make things easier.
As far as chlorine goes, 10% of your CYA will keep you algae-free. You can go lower, if the pool has no sign of algae.
Use the poolcalculator as needed, but "use" it, instead of letting it "use" you.
Thanks for the reply although I don't know what you want me to keep in my head. Figuring out the amount of dichlor or bleach I should add?
Anyway, I went to Leslie's to get more MA (they are cheaper than anywhere around here believe it or not: $11.79/2G of 31.45%) and took in a water sample. They have the same pH and FC numbers as I do but again we differed on TA (I said 200, they said 170) and CH (I said 90, they said 150). You said you liked to see comparison numbers, so there you go.
I added 3/4G of MA to aim for pH 7.0 (I am going to use my OTO for ph because it goes to 6.8 vs the K2006) I will check pH in 4 hours and add more MA if needed. When the pH gets down, I will aerate by 2 fountains and the step spa-jets.
What I meant, by "keep it in your head", is that if you add doses, and then test, you'll get to the point where you know what a reasonable dose of chlorine, acid, or alkalinity is for YOUR pool. That way, if your chlorine is low or your pH high, you can simply add the right dose -- learned by experience -- rather than running into the house (or for your smart phone -- and handling phones while you're handling chlorine tabs is NOT a good idea!!) and checking the calculator.
New forum members sometimes get fixated on various calculators, and become dependent on them, which prevents them from reaching that plateau where, 90% of the time, you know the right dose as soon as you see the test results.
While we're waiting for TA to adjust, I have a few questions for Ben. You had me purchase 4 qts. polyquat and 12# of calcium hypochlorite. I am not sure when I am supposed to use them. In years past, the "pool store" had me do a weekly maintenance of 3 lbs "shock", 6 oz polyquat eq., 6 oz clarifier, and 6 oz HEDP eq. I know the clarifier is out with BBB method, but what about the polyquat, the HEDP, and the calcium hypochorite? Do I do any of these on a maintenance/regular level? If not, I am sure you asked me to purchase them with good reason and I need to know when you intend for me to use them.
I know nothing about bromine pools but usually you can use Polyquat weekly adding a couple of ounces, or more. Polyquat's one drawback is it can drive chlorine levels down, so you have to compensate for that. I believe it also doubles as a clarifier.
Let me clarify some things.
1. Hardly anything is "out" with the BBB method. Carl's due credit for coming up with a convenient and easy-to-remember name for the approach to pool chemistry I've taught, but there are times I wish he'd thought of a different name. The problem is, it tends to fix people's minds too tightly on a limited set of chemicals. The fact is, I'm not against ANY chemical . . . used with a good reason.
2. Polyquat allows you to keep your pool from going green, while the chlorine is low.
3. When you've got metals in the water, you need to keep the chlorine low, to avoid 'dropping them out' and causing stains.
4. But, EVENTUALLY, you have to do just that: the cal hypo is for the purpose of helping you 'drop them out' on the filter (and on the calcium particles on the filter, from the cal hypo.)
Basically, what you're trying to do, is get your pool up and running smoothly via HEDP, polyquat, low-ish pH, and low-ish chlorine. Once you've done so, THEN you can switch to removing metals without staining things much, using gradually rising pH, gradually rising chlorine . . . and precipitation ONTO the filter, via cal hypo.
Unfortunately, managing metals remains complicated. I haven't come up with, or seen, a simple method for doing so. We'd hoped this product would do so:1.5 ppm CuLator packWe've been disappointed, because though it works, it works too slowly to be a one-step solution. It *is* useful as an ongoing preventative. If you get one, get the skimmer socks, too. These keep it from being quickly contaminated with 'pool goo'. CuLator says you should change these monthly -- and you should, if your goal is to improve CuLator's quarterly statement! Otherwise, you only need to change it when it's heavily discolored (from captured metals) OR gummed up with goo.
Poolmaster 16242 Poolmaster Skimmer Basket Liner
Does this clear up any of your questions?
(Carl --- this is no longer a bromine pool. Converted to chlorine.)
Sorry! Too late for that, Ben! Too many years, too many people and sites have picked up on it....I wanted a catchy memory-jogger, not a rigid "This way or the highway" and didn't include acid or stabilizer in it...BBBAS (Bee-Bee-Bass) sounds weird and complicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by PoolDoc
I, too, use what's right at the time--and sometimes what I've got in the shed so I don't have to go running.
Metal-clearing seems to be THE most difficult aspect of pool chemistry, other than conversion from something to Chlorine.Quote:
Originally Posted by PoolDoc
I have a bunch of questions about all that but for now I need to get back to the TA issue...
Here's what I did. I added 3/4G of MA, waited 4 hours, got a pH of 7.1ish and added 1 more quart of MA (and 3/4C of diclor). After an hour, I turned on my 2 fountains and the step swirling jets and then went to bed. In the morning my results were:
pH 7.4
FC 3.6
CC 0.6
TA 200, then 180, then 200
CH 90
I freaked out and took a sample into Leslie's.
They agreed with the pH but they said TA was 150, yesterday afternoon they had 170 so they think the acid and aeration is working. But, I returned home to retest TA and I got 200 again. I don't know who is right or wrong on these numbers. I even purchased fresh TA reagents the other day because my numbers weren't agreeing. I will continue with lowering my TA per directions but I don't know which numbers to trust here. I'm thinking Leslie's as I had TA at 200 before the gallon of acid and I still have TA of 200 and the acid MUST have done something....!
When you do the TA test, are you swirling the sample after every drop? For me, when I'm getting close to the TA reading I see a red spot where a drop goes in that goes back to all green after swirl. Next couple drops the sample turns a silver / gray color after swirling. One or two more drops and the sample stays red.
Yes, and my color changes are the same as yours. If I run the test twice in a row, I have to admit the second time I add 5, swirl, add 5 swirl, add 5 swirl, then drop by drop. I just ran it again, drop by drop, and it is 200. Drat, I don't know what the problem is. I just tested the pH also, 1-1/2 hours after adding 3/4G MA, and it is down to 7.0. I will let MA circulate a half hour more and then aerate again. When pH comes up I will test TA again.
I wouldn't focus too much on exactly what it is: every test agrees that it's somewhat too high. Just lower your pH to around 7.0, and maintain it there, till the TA is closer to 120. If you can't get a stable reading then, we can wrestle that problem, at that time.
Remember:
Vinyl pool
pH 7.4
CH 90
T/A tests at 150, 180, or 200.
Unless your pH is consistently trending upwards, it's just not that big a problem. Yeah, fixing is probably a good idea, but it's not going to cause your pool to go cloudy or scale metal, not with your CH so low.
If CH was 400 or 500, or you had to keep add MA to control pH, then you'd have a problem.
Okay, I am comfy waiting for this long process to finish.... I am just concerned about how to know when I reach 110-120 TA if my tests are off. pH has already risen from 7.0 to 7.2 in 3 hours. (I added a slight splash from the slide too). Looks like more MA tonight! I will keep an eye on the FC with the pool open and CYA<30, and add more dichlor tonight if FC drops to around 2.
And by the way, Carl, I have never in 8+ years had to raise my pH; I always have to lower it. That may have been my old bromine pool-store treated water, but also may have something to do with my fill well-water.
BTW, while waiting for my pH to rise.... I tried to find a place to purchase HEDP (as an alternative to the CuLator) and came across this blurb about HEDP adding phosphates to water. http://blog.intheswim.com/phosphate-...tion-in-pools/
Generally, if you find your pH is always rising and you have to lower it, you sho0uld lower TA to anywhere from 60 to 80. If you find it's always falling, you'd want to raise your T/A till it stabilizes.Quote:
Originally Posted by BromineUser
As Carl suggested, the numbers are less important than they sometimes seem. On a vinyl pool, if your water is clear, and your pH is not too low, and you aren't adding copper . . . you're not going to damage your pool.
The Taylor TA test is probably the most accurate one you have access to -- so if you are using it correctly, those are the results you should trust. But there is room for 'operator error' any time you do a titration, whether it's with a glass buret and an Erlenmyer flask, or with a 100 mL plastic tube and 3 dropper bottles. If you want to be SURE you're doing it right, check out these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...99CY_BQXE1Jx6s
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...-ZRW_OFLP4jNO4
But honestly, if you'll just relax a bit, things will be easier, and you'll get better at the details.
One absolutely key point: no pool EVER runs exactly by the book. The real world is always more complicated than the 'rules', and if you try to make the two sync up perfectly, you'll go nuts. Twenty-five years ago, we were told that the IgE levels found on my then 3 year old son were impossible: if he REALLY had those levels, he'd be confined to an allergy bubble in Arizona. But, those levels were confirmed with subsequent testing, and yet he's never been confined, though I did give him allergy shots for 7 years. Twenty years ago, my pastor was told that his cholesterol levels were close to the highest ever reported, and that he should plan for a short life expectancy. He's still alive, though he did have to have a bypass 3 years ago.
Bottom line: no set of tests, even with multi-million dollar equipment, will fully describe what happens in YOUR pool. But, with practice, you can get 'close enough' with the Taylor K2006. And that's really all you need.
Okay, I'm relaxing or at least trying my best... Here are my morning numbers:
pH 7.5
FC 2.6
CC 0.3
TA 200 but if I go as pink/red as the video shows, it's more like 220.
I took today's sample into Leslie's, and they agree with pH but say that my TA is now 120. To recap, their results were 170 initially, 150 after first MA dose, and 120 after second MA dose. Is that a fairly typical change between treatments? If so, I am going to trust their numbers for now. After adding almost 2G total MA and aeration, my TA cannot still be at 200. (I wouldn't think so anyway). After work, I am going to Leslie's and have them test TA with MY reagents and see what they get. I also think I will do one more round of acid/aeration to aim for a Leslie's TA of 100. In-The-Swim also tests with Taylor reagents and I may run there with a water sample for a third result.
If you carry water to a store to be tested for TA, be SURE that you (1) fill the bottle 100%, and leave NO air space, and (2) keep it cool. Otherwise, you'll get a bogus result.
Chlorine, pH, and TA results are 'perishable' and will not be reliable if (a) the sample is improperly collected (air space, mainly), (b) mishandled (shaken, vibrated, etc.), (c) overheated, or (d) stored too long -- 6 hours max, mainly for chlorine.
Actually, if there's oxidizable goo in your pool -- likely during startup -- you'd almost have to 'race' the sample to the store to get a result as accurate as your home test. And if you half fill a bottle and then agitate it (rolling around on the floor, driving a rough road, etc.) the sample will be read higher in pH and lower in TA than is actually the case in your pool.
Hmmm, interesting. I am going to agitate a sample at home to see if I get a lower TA reading.
Do you agree that my TA must have come down somewhat after two series of MA and aeration? You said it would be a long process but if I still really am at 200, nothing has changed.
Results:
Home: No difference in TA after agitation. TA still 220-230 depending on how dark a pink-red I go for.
In-The-Swim: TA 240 and he went dark like my 230
Leslie's: First he used his reagents. TA 110, then mine TA 150. He stops when color is greyish.
So, I will trust my reagents and just be frustrated that there has been no change in TA after 2 full cycles of MA.
I think I may have figured out my problem, however. Even though I read the directions over and over.... I goofed and am feeling pretty embarrassed.
Your instructions say:
4.) Begin aerating.
5.) Test your pH AND your alkalinity. Continue adding acid to MAINTAIN your low pH until your alkalinity reaches your target value. Once it does, continue aerating, but allow the pH to rise to the normal level.
I have been getting my pH down to 7.0 and then aerating to bring it back up to 7.5/7.6 and then lowering it back to 7.0 and aerating back up to 7.5/7.6. I see that your instructions say MAINTAIN low pH. I am now going to keep it around 7.0. I will reduce the amount of aeration at least until I know the MA has completely circulated.
Does that make sense? In the meantime, should I continue with 1C dichlor every night or switch to the calcium hypochlorite?
I'm going to have to give you some different instructions.
1. Test your pool's pH each evening. If it's above 7.2, add 1/2 gallon of MA. Make sure the pump runs for at least 4 hours after. Do NOT test TA or CH during these 3 days!!! Continue to aerate, using whatever approach you've chosen.
2. After 3 evenings of testing pH and adding MA **as needed**, the following (fourth!) day test the TA.
==> If the TA is <150, do not add acid for 3 days. Do *NOT* test the TA again for 3 days. Discontinue acid additions during this period.
==> If the TA is > 150, recycle to #1 above.
3. After waiting 3 days (after a TA reading < 150 ppm), retest both pH and TA, and report results here. Do NOT test either pH or TA during the 3 days you wait.
OK?
Under NO conditions should you ("BromineUser") test TA more than 2x per week.
I think I've got it.
Maybe you'll have to add these instructions as an addendum to your original. I'm thinking "Lowering Swimming Pool Alkalinity ...FOR DUMMIES" Feeling pretty low and incompetent right now!
In the meantime, I have been using 3/4-1C dichlor nightly. Do you recommend I use dichlor or the calcium hypochlorite (or a mixture) during these next many days?
Let me try to simplify the T/A lowering procedure. We've batted this around for at least a half-dozen years until Chem_Geek untangled it so we all understood.
1) T/A reading depends on the pH reading. So at 7.0 you'll get a lower T/A than at 7.8, when actually they are linked. If you raise pH with Borax or Soda Ash, T/A goes right back up.
2) So you lower pH to, say, 7.0.
3) Aeration RAISES pH! The fancy chemistry has something to do with breaking down carbonic acid in the water but the end result is aeration raises pH but does NOT raise T/A with it, unlike other ways to raise pH.
4) You then lower the pH again, pulling down T/A with it, and aerate to raise pH without raising T/A again.
In other words, you are ratcheting the T/A down. The aeration doesn't lower T/A (though if you keep pH constant at 7.0-7.2 it will SEEM that way). Lowering pH lowers T/A and aeration allows pH to rise without raising T/A.
On another note, you keep wasting your chlorine reagents doing the 25ml test. Only do the 10ml test. We/you don't need to know that FC is 7.2 or 7.4, 7.0 or 7.5 is close enough. Same for CC.
So if I understand you, my lowering pH with MA to 7, raising by aeration to 7.6, lowering by MA to 7, raising by aeration to 7.6, etc., actually might have done something other than waste time and MA. I don't feel so stupid, if so. I think though that Ben is saying that I need to KEEP my pH low for an extended period and not to aerate with the goal of raising pH all the way back up to 7.6 or higher before adding more MA. I will follow his instructions to the letter as my ultimate goal is to have a great pool with no unneccesary chemicals, to keep money in my pocket and not the pool store's, and to become "FormerBromineUser"!!!
It's not that at all. People are wired differently. A couple of years ago, my Assistant Scoutmaster was that way. We were accumulating more and more gear, but couldn't get permission from the church to build storage shelves and racks. So, the stuff piled up. It didn't bother me: they were somewhat organized piles, and the boys could not have cared less. But David is neat and organized by nature, and it drove him nuts. In truth, he was rather obsessive about it. But, that same nature had enabled him to pay meticulous attention to mind-numbing financial papers, with result that even though he was just over half my age, he could buy and sell me 10x over.Quote:
Originally Posted by BromineUser
There are times when it pays to be obsessive about pools, but this particular situation of yours isn't one of them.
I think there's come a time to all of us when we say "D*** it all! I'm going to empty this pool and shut it down! No more!" Sometimes more than once......
It reminds me of the cynical quip: "A boat is a hole in the water, surrounded by wood or fiberglass, into which you throw money!" With the follow-up being "The two happiest days in a boatowner's life is the day he buys the boat...and the day he sells it!"