Did you get it?
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Did you get it?
No. That store in McKinney has none in stock. In fact, no pool store within reasonable driving distance stocks the Orenda PR-10000. I've checked them all. I've not been able to find a reasonable online source either. All the online sellers fall into one or more of these categories:Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerBromineUser
1. Only sell the larger sizes.
2. Want to charge $15-25 to ship one pint.
3. Look really sketchy, like a 12-year-old built the website.
I don't understand why Amazon only sells the industrial size containers. Anyway, is there another product that you guys recommend, which I can actually get my hands on, preferably via Amazon? I was thinking about Kem-Tek. But PoolDoc had indicated that the Clorox product (which didn't work for me) is a re-labeled version of Kem-Tek. So I'm not sure that's a good option. There is a SeaKlear commercial phosphate remover which claims to remove 9000ppb per 10kgal for $43 and free shipping (1 qt). I think that makes it a better value than Orenda anyway, especially with free shipping, and almost same effectiveness. Any experience with this product?
Thanks!
I'm working on the third quart of Kem-Tek this summer and from my somewhat casual observation it removes less phosphate than the label indicates - very close to the label of the chlorox product. On the positive side, My's pool's phosphate level has been below 125ppb since early August and the mustard algae has not returned. It did reappear in late July when the phosphate level was about 250ppb.
PoolDoc is sold on using Orenda. I found 9.99 shipping but am out of town now and can't check where I found it. It was 33.90 with shipping and the store had good ratings. I think I used yahoo shopping.
OK, I finally found the site you are referring to using Google Shopping. Very sketchy. The site has at least 4 or 5 different variants with slightly different content and pricing, which makes me distrustful right from the start. But also, they add $4.50 handling fee at checkout, so the total delivered price is right at ~$40 for one pint. Shipping and handling is almost as much as the product itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerBromineUser
Not trying to be cheap here. I just don't trust internet retailers that set up multiple websites with similar content but slightly different pricing. Then advertise a low-ball price to appear competitive on Google Shopping, and pile on bogus charges at checkout. I won't buy from them on principle alone, assuming they even exist. I went to scamadviser.com, and got the following for all the site variants: "The website has been newly registered with a short life expectancy, which follows the pattern used by many fraudulent and fake selling websites. Please be vigilant and take extra care before providing any payment information."
Here are some of the variants, 4 of which appear in the top 5 on Google Shopping for the Orenda product, but have no seller ratings:
http://www.poolandspapartsnow.com/
http://www.allpoolandspaparts.com/
http://www.poolandspapartsmart.com/
http://www.poolandspapartstoday.com/
http://www.poolandspapartssuperstore.com/
So, I'm still looking for a legitimate source for this Orenda product, or a more cost-effective alternative.
I keep coming back to the SeaKlear commercial product which has nearly same effectiveness (per the label) as Orenda, but I can get twice as much for my $40, and use Amazon instead of all these sketchy online pool sites.
Good catch on the SeaKlear Commercial at Amazon; $44/quart with free shipping and 9,000 ppb/10k gallons is a good deal.
SeaKlear Commercial Phosphate Remover QuartWe do need to confirm efficacy.
GLB Clear Blue Clarifier
OP here with a quick update. I was able to procure a pint of Orenda PR10000 for a reasonable price online, $24 plus $6 shipping. I've been dosing over the last several weeks. In theory, I should have only needed 5.7oz to reduce my 18kgal pool by 1000ppb. After two quarts of the Clorox product, plus 12oz of the PR10000, I'm still at ~300-400ppb phosphates. I just added the last 4oz of the Orenda product to see if I can get a little closer to 125ppb. Either my water was a lot higher than 1000ppb or these products remove far less phosphate than indicated on the label. I've had very minor clouding for about an hour after each dosing, then it clears up by itself. I used no clarifier. The pressure on my cartridge filter has gone up *maybe* 2psi. Anyway, I've been at this since mid July, and still don't have the phosphates down where I want them. I still have the yellow algae although it's less noticable... could be the lower phosphates or the lower water temps. CYA is 37 and I've been keeping FC in the 6-10 range.
Just another quick update... It's been one week since I added the last 4 oz of PR10000. The phosphates are right at 200 ppb. The effectiveness of this Orenda product is no where close to what's indicated on the label. Anyway, I'm done for this year. The water temps are down in the mid 70s and the yellow algae still returns, but much more slowly than before. After brushing, it takes about 3-4 days to notice the algae (vs 1-2 days previously), and it's a much smaller growth than before... probably some combination of lower phosphates and lower temperatures. FC consumption is steady at 2.5 ppm per day. My cartridge filter pressure is at 19 psi, up from 12 psi after the last cleaning in May, which is maybe 2-3 psi higher than it would normally be, absent any phosphate removal process.
Thanks for the update.
That's disappointing that the PR10000 isn't near as effective as advertised. I've been keeping an eye on this thread should I ever decide to lower phosphates.
Edit: I just noticed I've been upgrade to "Verb Herder". Hmmm...is that a complement or an insult...lol. :D
I am disappointed too. Congrats on the Verb Herder! You're in the Big Time now, buddy!
Richard - ChemGeek - uses PR10000 and reports that PR10000 *does* remove PO4 as predicted.
But . . . what I'm seeing myself (I'm using it) suggests that it only does so AFTER you have lowered PO4 levels fully. What I suspect is that there are more phosphates in the pool system -- pipes, pool surface, filter media -- than there are in the water itself. This would not be surprising, since phosphates are often.added to water in the first place because of their abilities to attach to surfaces. If I'm right, then the attached phosphates will only be released back into the pool water when the PO4 levels begin to get low (< 500 ppb?).
My guess is that attached phosphates will be low in all plastic pools with cartridge filters (plastic liner, plastic pipes, plastic equipment), but high in concrete or stone pools with sand filters.
I would strongly encourage you, if you've reached 200 ppb, to go ahead and get that next quart. 200 ppb is NOT low enough to be very helpful, but it's very, very close to 100 ppb, which IS low enough. If you stop now, you are sort of like someone who started a 10k run, but stopped at 9.8k.
I should add, that I'm seeing a consistent MAJOR improvement in mustard algae control, when PO4 levels are at 150 ppb or less.
By improvement, I mean that the mustard algae is MUCH slower growing, and MUCH less chlorine resistant.
How's it going?
OP here with another update. Well, I still had the yellow algae all winter, despite maintaining FC in the 6-10 range with CYA around 30. I did buy a second pint of Orenda PR10000. I've now used all but about 3oz over the last several months, but phosphates are still hovering around 300-400ppb. Over the last 12 months, I've used 2 quarts of a Clorox product and now 2 pints of Orenda. According to the labels, this should have removed several thousand ppb. There is no phosphate in my source water and no other obvious source. I read PoolDoc's explanation of "attached" phosphate with much interest, so I'll keep trying.
Another oddity, same as last year, my CYA mysteriously dropped like a rock to zero in the Spring. I've added some CYA to get back to about 30-40. I have a cartridge filter and don't lose much water normally, so I don't understand this loss of CYA. The pool was running all winter and water looked fine except for the recurring yellow algae.
In any case, I'm now holding FC in the 10-15 range since April and sweeping several times each week. I'm also running the polaris about 3 hours per day instead of my normal 1 hour. So far, no yellow algae, but this could be because the polaris and I are sweeping it up every day. I'll cut back sweeping and see what happens this week. I'll also use the last 3oz of Orenda, but based on my experience, I'm quite certain that will have no effect on phosphates in the water.
If any other suggestions, please let me know. Here are my numbers from this morning:
FC=13.5
CC=0
pH=7.6
TA=90
CYA=35
CH=280
Borates=50
PO4=400
That's too bad that the Orenda product isn't cutting down the phosphates below 300 ppb. In my pool it got down to 100 ppb when it was used years ago. Since then, my phosphates have crept up to around 400 ppb (after around 4 years). I have 300-500 ppb phosphates in my fill water, but I use a pool cover so have minimal evaporation/refill from about 1 hour of pool use most days.
As for CYA disappearing over the winter, that is possible if you let your pool go over the winter (i.e. if you don't continually disinfect it) where bacteria can consume CYA turning it into ammonia (which creates a HUGE chlorine demand upon opening) or to nitrogen gas (which doesn't have any chlorine demand). Sounds like you may have had the latter happen.
With your low CYA you shouldn't need to keep the FC so high. Even to keep away yellow/mustard algae using chlorine alone that would take an FC that is around 15% of the CYA level instead of the more usual minimum for green/black algae prevention of 7.5%. At 35 ppm CYA, an FC of 5-6 ppm should prevent yellow/mustard algae growth if you have decent circulation in the pool. HOWEVER, this is at normal pool temperatures above 80ºF. In colder water, there is a lower active chlorine level so at 50ºF, for example, you'd need closer to 17 ppm to be equivalent (it might not be that extreme -- I'm using the CYA temperature dependence from Wojtowicz but those numbers may be off a bit). This seems consistent with what you've been seeing, though usually at colder temperatures the algae grows more slowly.
Keep us posted with how it goes.
Thanks chem geek. Regarding disappearing CYA, I thought that would only happen if you close the pool down and let it turn into a green sludge pond. I've never done that. As I noted in my prior post, mine was circulating all winter and was well chlorinated at all times. Under those conditions, is there any other mechanism that would consume CYA? The recurring yellow algae perhaps?
I'll reduce the FC as you suggested, but at the first sign of the yellow beast, I'm taking it back up again. This is the lowest my CYA has been in a long time, so I want to take advantage of it and rid my pool of this hard-to-kill algae.
Regarding phosphates, did you read what PoolDoc said in post #51 about "attached" phosphates? Do you agree? Should I just keep dosing with Orenda until I see a breakthrough below 300?
Thanks,
Mike
I don't know why the CYA would disappear (other than water dilution from rain overflow) over the winter when it was disinfected. If the chlorine and pH levels were high, then the oxidation of CYA by chlorine is faster, but in cold water that shouldn't be very fast. In a pool during the summer the loss is usually around 3 ppm per month while in a hot spa it's around 5 ppm per month.
I don't know what to do about the phosphates. It should get lowered more and maybe if they are released as PoolDoc says then doing another treatment might work, but I'd expect to see it drop soon after treatment and only slowly rise up if in fact the phosphates are "attached" elsewhere. If you had HEDP metal sequestrant in the pool, then chlorine oxidation of it will produce more orthophosphate -- do you have HEDP in the water?