Thank you pool doc!! Your the best.....

It took me a long time to go through this thread.

1. Remove the sand filter.
2. Run the pump ONLY on low speed.
3. Add chlorine ONLY in the evening. Brush the pool after adding chlorine.
4. Don't add ANY thing else UNLESS you need to add borax to raise the pH or acid to lower it: if the pH is between 7 and 8, leave it alone.
5. EITHER add DE to test your filter OR get a new Unicel.
6. Do NOT clean the filter unless you are seeing at least a 3# increase on low speed.
6. Report AM FC and CC AND filter pressure 1x per day; no other reports.

I really wish you'd get a new cartridge, if you can. Do the DE or a new Unicel -- MUST have Unicel name on packaging! I'm finding many, many cartridges are NOT what they are sold as.

Also, the next time you clean the cartridge, please photograph it -- outside, inside tube, caps.

Good luck!

The cart is new Ben. I took a few pics lost some from technical error on the phone.

These pics survived and I can tell you that it is one season old. The original filter lasted 6 yrs. Inside there is a spoked wheel in the center to prevent collapsing.


If you specify I can take any pics you want next time I open the filter.
http://i1225.photobucket.com.KILLED/...30-12_1605.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-e...30-12_1558.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com.KILLED/...0-12_16051.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-I...0-12_16051.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com.KILLED/...30-12_1558.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-U...30-12_1605.jpg

I took the sand filter offline in my series configuration and am only running the cart on low.

#4 I think you mixed up the borax and acid application.

#5 the DE for test purposes will not clog the cart?

Filter pressure is 5 1/2 psi. 5 psi is start psi clean

Mike NJ

Last night

PM: FC = 18n
AM: FC= 15
AM: CC = 0
Filter pressure 5 1/2. ( Same as yesterday)

On low speed 24/7. Will only add bleach at night per your instructions.

Today steady rain.

Mike NJ

Last night

PM: FC= 18 ( Brought up from 13 to shock level. Was sunny later in the day yesterday)
AM: FC 15 ( Losing the same overnight 3 ppm.)
CC = 0
Pressure: 6 psi ( went up 1/2 psi. Just a hair shy.)

Steady rain today again. Two weeks and 2 days into this cleaning process. About 36 gallons of bleach added so far for 6000 gal pool.

Note:

Trouble I have testing CC even though I am fast, is that the sample changes back to pink very quickly after turning clear. I cant get the 003 reagent in there fast enough to really test. I have to add a substantial amount of the #871 to get it clear. Then the #003 does nothing.

Mike NJ

Same as yesterday morning.

FC 15
CC 0
psi hair shy of 6 psi so not rising after 24 hours.

( I dont think its a filter issue. Its either slow to kill or too small to filter)

Can see bottom of pool but cloudy still.

I don't think its the CYA thing with the ammonia. I will re read the cloudy pool section. There needs to be a different cause for my cloudy pool every year. perhaps I am lacking something. Possible because I have 0 hardness to the water and I need some calcium?

Ugggghhhhhh!!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lawrosa

There needs to be a different cause for my cloudy pool every year. perhaps I am lacking something.

Possible because I have 0 hardness to the water and I need some calcium?

---

No, you do not need calcium.

OK same.

FC 15
CC 0
6 psi filter pressure

Still cloudy hazy. I can see the bottom somewhat. Since nothing is changing I think I may raise the Cl level to 20. Vacuum and brush pool daily after shock in PM.

Ho Hum..... I will post pics in my next installment of getting nowhere...LOL

Mike NJ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lawrosa

These pics survived and I can tell you that it is one season old. The original filter lasted 6 yrs. Inside there is a spoked wheel in the center to prevent collapsing.

---

A 1 year old cartridge isn't new. The fact that you kept the old one for 6 years is NOT evidence that it lasted 6 years. You can continue to use cartridges after they are no longer effective: they still fit in the filter chamber; they just don't filter well.

Quote:

---

#5 the DE for test purposes will not clog the cart?

---

Not if you use DE powder. If you use one of the DE alternatives, it WILL clog the filter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lawrosa

FC 15
CC 0
psi hair shy of 6 psi so not rising after 24 hours.

---

Are you still losing 3 ppm overnight?

Quote:

---

I don't think its a filter issue. Its either slow to kill or too small to filter

---

Gray blue is dead; the last pictures show no evidence of live algae. "Too small to filter" *is* a filter issue. The only way I know of for you to get unfilterable particles is to add some specific chemicals in excess. But, you haven't mentioned using those.

Quote:

---

I don't think its the CYA thing with the ammonia.

---

It almost certainly WAS the ammonia thing; it doesn't sound like it still IS the ammonia thing. There is not another common cause of the chlorine demand + high CC levels you experienced.

Quote:

---

There needs to be a different cause for my cloudy pool every year.

---

No, you can have the same problem year after year.

Quote:

---

Possible because I have 0 hardness to the water and I need some calcium?

---

Adding calcium NEVER clears up water.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lawrosa

FC 15
CC 0
6 psi filter pressure

Since nothing is changing I think I may raise the Cl level to 20.

---

Don't know any reason for you to do that, unless you are still losing chlorine overnight.

From the information you supplied, it appears you had

1. A slimy, algae infested pool, with
2. Zero stabilizer plus ammonia and/or urea as metabolic byproducts of the bacterial degradation of stabilizer;
3. and a poorly functioning filter that is unable to filter the dead algae.

The algae is gone; if you no longer have overnight chlorine loss, the ammonia is gone; but you STILL have a poorly functioning filter with lots of fine dead algae particles.

If you're enjoying messing around with a cloudy pool, that's up to you. But if not, either
+ get a new Unicel or Filbur cartridge and try those on LOW SPEED
OR
+ test your existing filter with DE powder.

I'm not sure you're grasping the fact that a single cartridge run with substantial over-pressure can damage the cartridge. You may have damaged your year-old cartridge the first week you had it. I may be wrong about the filter, but it is by far the most likely remaining culprit . . . and you need to test and see if it IS the problem.

Ben,

I know this filter is good. I am diligent on inspection and cleaning. I am unemplyed so I cant afford to buy a new one just for the sake of it.

I also have a sand filter. There is no way two filters can be damaged or faulty.

I understand what you are saying so I went out and physically cleaned, inspected, DE test, etc........

Inside and various pics of filter.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...04-12_1831.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...4-12_18301.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...04-12_1830.jpg



Here you see some pleats are thin in areas. This is how the original hayward was. This is how they are designed. My hayward never broke, ripped, collapsed, etc...

This filter looks identical to the hatward, but says UNICEL.

Here are inside pleats.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...04-12_1838.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...04-12_1837.jpg


Here is in and around the filter.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...04-12_1844.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...04-12_1843.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...04-12_1842.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...04-12_1845.jpg


Cant see in the pic but when I sprayed the filter white residue came off. Kind of like the white haze that is in the water.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...04-12_1834.jpg


Here is the DE I have from the sand filter. Its powder. I through a cup in real fast and no white came out the return.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...04-12_1859.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...04-12_1901.jpg


Here is what the pool looks like. You cant tell by the pics, but you need to look hard to see the bottom. Pool is overall hazy/cloudy.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...4-12_18511.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...04-12_1851.jpg

Here is what the pool looked like last year when I was done clearing. After I had the staining issue if you remember, and I used the pink stuff per your instruction.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...Picture021.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...Picture026.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...Picture029.jpg


Here is hi pressure 15 psi clean filter and 5 psi low clean filter.

OK sorry I lost those two in the transfer




So what do you think now? Am I crazy????

FC after sunny day tonight was down to 11 today.

I put in 80 oz to raise to 16-17.

Vacuumed and brushed.


Also do I leave the DE in there or take the filter out and clean it?

Ben I think you were going to call me last year when i had this going on.

Oh and thank you.......

Mike NJ

Hi Mike;

Sorry about the budget issue -- I understand all too well. 2011 was the first Christmas in five years, where I haven't had worry too much about having to declare bankruptcy in February or March.

I agree, it appears that your filters are OK. However it's an unforunate fact that I'd have to either examine them personally OR have macro-photographs of the filter media to be sure.

That said, if you can dump DE in, do so. Let it run till the filter pressure rises 5 lbs and then clean the filter.

I'm checking with Chem_Geek and others about another possible explanation of what's going on with your pool. If I'm right, it primarily affects AG pool owners with sand filters. Again, if I'm correct, the solution might be a bit different than what you've been doing. But FIRST, you have to hold chlorine levels overnight, without significant loss.

SECOND, I'd need to know if you have a vac pole, vac head, and vac hose?

Ben, I am not using the sand filter per your instructions several posts ago just so you know. It seems your last post suggested I was using the sand filter? I am using the cart only.

If your post is right then want me to use DE in the cart? I threw a cup in just for that test as I stated. Like I said no DE came out the return. And that was on hi speed pump.

I could take macro pics of the filter but tell me of what part of the filter?

I could run the sand filter by itself if you think that's better? I hook up the sand after the cart and just remove the cart from the housing. Or I had them both running in series at one time.

Yeah Ben I have been unemployed since 2009. Unemployment ran out and wife works now. I am a stay home dad with the 3 kids and 1 grand kid. My youngest is 4 and my oldest is 19. Heck I am only 46. We are just making ends meet with no extras.

So I don't have two nickles to rub together.

Anyway bleach and my time is cheap though, plus I have a small pool.

Yes I have a good vac, pole, and hose. I vac almost every night... Wait are you going to have me floc?????????? I heard bad stuff about that. Plus I am on a well, so to vac to waste with the sand filter I am sure I will need to fill my pool a lot. If I bypass my softner I am sure I will get iron issues. I will have to vac and fill a little at a time if that's what you want me to do.

OK I will stop talking....LOL

Mike NJ

PM FC : 15
PM CC : 0

Added 5 - cups 6% bleach to bring to 18. Cleaned all the DE out of the filter for the test I did. Back to clean filter 5 psi low speed. No CC so I wonder if I just let the Cl lower to normal levels now, and keep filtering 24/7.

Will be 3 weeks Monday night. 39 gallons of bleach so far.

Mike NJ

No.

Turn the pump off, and let the pool sit still for 2 days. Use bleach to keep the chlorine level above 10 ppm.

I'll explain more Monday. This is happening to a bunch of people (the can't filter algae, not the CYA => ammonia) and I think I've figured out what's going on.

Not sure what the best fix will be, however.

I need to know if you have a hand vacuum set (pole, head, hose) and if you know how to use a siphon on an AG pool like yours to vacuum.

Quote:

---

I need to know if you have a hand vacuum set (pole, head, hose) and if you know how to use a siphon on an AG pool like yours to vacuum

---

Yes I have a vac, hose, pole and yes I can siphon.

I can do anything. Im a plumber.

Mike NJ

So I turned the pump off this morning.

It may seem from your post that I may need to skim/siphon the top water with something? Or you may be on to something?

I was thinking a wet dry vac???

I will wait to hear from you and as it stands, pump is off.

Have a good rest of the weekend...

Mike NJ

Ben, it seems the pool is clearing up with the filter not running. Its been about 13 hours. I can see the bottom almost clearly. Looks like a pollen ring around the waterline. I dont know what else you want me to tell you that may help you help me. Pollen from the trees I am sure.

I am eagerly waiting to hear what I may need to do next. Its about 8pm and I am going to check the CL levels and adjust accordingly to 10 ppm as you stated.

Thanks.

Hmmm. last year I believe I gave up at one point and had turned the filter off for a few days. Then it rained and cleared. But I would have to read line by line on what I exactly did last year.

But I know it was the same exact issue of not being able to filter.

Mike NJ

Ben, I am just checking in.... Are you still with me? I am following what you told me in post #53.

I am on standby.

Mike NJ

Has the pool settled enough, to make it possible to hook up a siphon to the vac head, and vacuum the algae out to the ground?

(Be sure to keep the chlorine level up, by pouring bleach around the pool!)

Yes I kept the CL up to 10... What am I doing exactly? You did not explain the concept and what I am trying to achieve.

If you want me to vac the pool bottom with minimal distubance, I would just hook the sand filter up and vac to waste on low speed.

Please post back...

Mike NJ

If the algae will settle to a layer, 3" thick or less, on the bottom, then you should be able to vacuum to waste. If this doesn't work, the next step is to add a floc, and try to use that to accomplish the same thing.

I don't think you are going to be able to filter the algae particles in any reasonable time, with your existing equipment. However, since you are a plumber, if you can set up your sand filter to operate with your pump at about 10 GPM, then THAT would filter it. You'd need to place a valve between the pump and the filter -- throttling elsewhere can cause problems.

OK I have a valve before the pump.

I have a valve after the cart.

I can throttle from any of them. If I hook up the sand it would be in series with the cart. Cart first then sand. I remove the cartridge to run sand only.

So in this scenerio I would throttle the valve after the cart, but will be before the sand.

And if this is true how will I know I am at 10 gpm without a flow meter?

Next would I add DE to the sand to accomplish this?

What I am thinking is vac to waste and then filter as you describe.

Thanks. ( And why is this happening? )

Mike NJ

I was assuming you only were using one filter at a time. If both are inline, REMOVE the cartridge before beginning this. Check your sand volume if you can, also.

As far as checking flow, can you have someone hold the vac hose TIGHTLY over the return, and run it into a 5 gallon bucket, and then throttle the flow till it takes 30s or more to fill the bucket?

As far as a full explanation of the problem -- we don't have one. I have some theories, which we're trying to test, but no clear evidence yet. But, you're not the only one.

OK.

So I will vac to waste later on this evening on low speed as to not disturb anything right?

Then I will run the sand filter preferred to the cart correct? I will run on low speed and try to achieve 10gpm, right?

Do I add DE to the sand?

Mike NJ

+ No DE.
+ Sand filter at 10 GPM OK -- if vacuuming successful; otherwise, let it re-settle.
+ You may need to vacuum via a SIPHON, rather than via pump.

Quote:

---

+ You may need to vacuum via a SIPHON, rather than via pump.

---

Why?

Quote:

---

otherwise, let it re-settle.

---

I did not see anything settling. Am I supposed too.

Quote:

---

+ Sand filter at 10 GPM OK

---

Would I be better running the cart and the sand toghther in series on low speed? The cart is first then the sand. The cart will slow the gpm by time it reaches the sand.

I can guess that low speed on my pump runs at about 10 gpm. ( I will pull the return hose tomorrow and fill a 5 gal bucket and time it. ).

Is this mustard algae? I would like to know what you think it is so I can also research additional info.

Mike NJ

+ Not mustard algae; mustard algae leaves yellow brown areas on pool surfaces.
+ If the algae is NOT settling, after 48 hours with no circulation, it's not going to settle. So much for that.
+ I'd recommend running only ONE filter with the pump on low, 24/7. If you're sure the cartridge is in good condition, use it, not the sand filter.

-- Maintain consistent chlorine levels
-- Do NOT turn the pump on high!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

What I suspect is happening to a lot of people with sand filters on AG pools, is that forcing the algae through the sand filter fractures the particles, and makes them hard to filter by any method.

What I know is that BOTH of your filters will perform much better on low speed, than on high. Once the pool is clear, you can probably run the cartridge filter on high, if you want to do so. But you should NEVER run the sand filter on high, especially during clean up.

OK Ben.

Last question.

Since I have no CC now do I still keep the CL levels at shock until the pool cleans 100%? Or can I lower the CL to say 3ppm now and its just a filtering issue.

It was down to a 7 today and I only brought it up to 12ppm for night. Shock for 30 CYA is 15.

I will post full test results tomorrow.

Also your quot below:

"What I suspect is happening to a lot of people with sand filters on AG pools, is that forcing the algae through the sand filter fractures the particles, and makes them hard to filter by any method."

I wasn't really using the sand filter. Only when I opened the pool and did the first few vacuum's. Once the pool got blue/white and the green was gone I have been running on the cart 24/7 on low.

So I am not sure the sand filter breaking up the particles hold true.

I know this may seem like a long shot but I think the filters need to be back washed often, or the carts sprayed down daily.

Even though I am not getting pressure rise I have noticed when cleaning the cart the water was milky white. So I said to myself if the filter does not seem to be catching anything then what is why is the rinse water coming off the cart white?

I also found this to be true with the sand filter when I took it offline. I backwashed it before I disconnected it and the site glass was really white for some time.

So in conclusion may think its catching it but only so much. Then it must be so fine that once you get a coating it will channel around somehow. So clean the filter and let it catch another fine coating. Again and again...

I also say this because when I did get a 1/2 to one psi on low speed, as soon as I turn the pump on high the pressure goes down.

Make any sense? Hope you understand my thinking.

( I also worked in telecom R&D engineering. Have a degree in electronics from the 1980's. Been around many PH'd's most of my younger years. So I think still think like that...LOL. They used to call me the problem finder. Plumbing is what I have to fall back on every time the market tanks. 1988 was a bad one. Also 1998 and again 2009 when my last layoff happened. I have not worked since then. Stay at home dad now. )

OK I will stop babbling Ben.....

Mike NJ

With CYA = 15, you can let FC drop to 5, if there's no sign of green and you've brushed the pool completely.

CL 7 ( Raised to 16ppm this pm. Why? I don't know)
CC 0 ( It has been 0 for a week or more. I dont think I am fighting anything anymore)
PH 7.5 ( Its always there every year without adding anything)
Alk 80 ( was 40. Added baking soda to raise last week or so)
CYA 30 ( Ben you wrote in last post thinking it was 15. It 30. It was 0 on open but added CYA after pool went from green to cloudy. I know it was against the ammonia issue you decribe)

Conclusion:

So I have two good known filters ( Did DE test) but cannot filter whats in my pool. I will just continue to keep at shock levels and run pump on low with cartridge only 24/7 on low.

May try 2 -4 oz of clarifier I have laying around. Other then that I have added noting to my pool.

For last winter winter I could not afford the polyquat and bought leslies algea stuff in a gallon. It was blue. I added that throughout the winter. They dont have it anymore it was a discontinued item. It was 9.99. I wanted to post the ingredients but I had the same issue last year so I don't think it was that.

Thanks for all your help. I will just chug along.

Mike NJ

At this point, trying clarifer -- but not exceeding label doses -- is probably warranted.

One of the problems we're having, is that most of us do NOT have these sorts of problem, and even if we do have algae, it cleans up quickly. So, we're not personally experienced with this situation.

If you get ready to try a clarifier, Natural Chemistry does have one that worked well for me....I've had to use it when I added zeo to my filter and then started up the pump in filter mode instead of backwash, so I sent enough zeo dust into my pool to make it look like a mud pit. Three weeks of filtering didn't help, so as as last resort I tried the clarifier. The one I used was called Clear and Perfect. You add it, run the filter for a few hours, then shut it off. The next day I could see drastic results, and the second morning it was completely cleared up. The thing is, though--that once the stuff settles to the bottom it takes on a strange consistency and needs to be vac'd to waste to remove it from the pool because it's very easily stirred up again.

Well I have to say, today I got up early and read the Leslie's ultra bright clarifier instructions.

It said add 4 oz for 10k pool, or for really cloudy add 8 oz for 10k. So I added 6oz for my 6200 gal pool. I mixed with 2 gal water and poured in front of the skimmer slowly. ( I figure 6 oz was a good # for a cloudy 6200 gallon pool)

All I can say is I should have maybe tried this a few weeks ago

( I did add 2 oz early on, but was afraid to use more because of all the bad press here about using it.)

My theory is I just needed to use more..... I ran the pump on high with the cart and left for the day.

Came home later this afternoon to a sparkly clear pool.

Here are the results.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...11-12_1647.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...11-12_1650.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...11-12_1646.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/...1-12_16461.jpg


Pressure rose 1 psi

Total:

42 gallons of bleach, 1 box of backing soda, two pounds of CYA, 8 oz in total of clarifier, 25 days of none stop filtering, and lots and lots and lots POP!!!!! ( Pool owner patience)

And thanks to all who put up with my long winded posts. Especially Ben.

I know I was frustrated and my posts are hard to read at times when I ramble on about useless stuff.

See you all in the closing season. I am going to close the pool properly this year so I may not have this trouble next year.


P.S. Its too cold to swim...LOL ( I started early because last year it took the same amount of time to clear and all other pool owners were swimming when I wasn't)

Oh and if anyone knows finds out what the actual issue, about whatever was in my pool that was not filterable, please let me know.

Regards,

Your friend from NJ.

Mike

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lawrosa

See you all in the closing season.

---

Glad it cleared but ..... are you leaving us for the rest of the season? :(

Well no. I just kind of lurk around during the season and read up on stuff to help me along the way.

I don't feel I am a good advice giver here. I can only reply to posts based on my own experiences.

If that's what you mean.

I never really had and issue with my pool and have using BBB since I bought the pool in 04". I usually can figure stuff out myself, but these past two years were a doosey!!!

I have the rest figured out fine and don't want to tie up the forum.

Mike NJ

Ok. Well, we'll be here if you need us. Don't be a stranger. Pop in and say hi once in awhile! Have a great swim season!

Congrat's, it's great to see your clear blue water. Perhaps as you lurk, you can offer your experience to others who have unfilterable cloudines. Have a great season!

Congrats on your clear water! Mine still isn't clear all the way. I have a whole new filter on the way and may try adding clarifier if the new system doesn't clear it up.

Just to revive this thread to give aditional feedback.

2011 and 2012 I had cloudy pools that did not clear. I re read this whole post. What I can say is I did not use polyquat upon closing those two year. Is it related? IDK.

All I know is the past 3 pool closings I use polyquat. Upon opening, even with just my leaf cover, the pool stays somewhat clear. Just a fine layer of green on the bottom maybe. Pool cleared up fine the past couple of year with in days..

Not sure if it was that leslies algae stuff I added those two years.. Whatever it was it wasn't polyquat I know that for sure...

Well hope all is well here . I am sorry I have not been around.. Ill try to pop in more often.

Mike.....

Hi. Good to hear from you.

You have a long history. I use polyquat too, but only on closing. After I use it, I bring my FC back up to shock level.

Don't be a stranger!

The polyquat certainly helps and it's been part of my closing routine for many years. But if you shock the pool thoroughly before you close, and open before the first algae bloom hits, you should be fine.

Meanwhile you CAN use a little polyquat weekly to inhibit algae, just 1 to 1.5 ounces. Polyquat can keep algae from starting if your FC goes too low briefly.